Folexen: New Hair Loss Treatment based on S-Equol

[abcdefg]

If someone invents a better way then finasteride to stop androgens safely and proves it works with solid evidence like propecia has I really doubt you would meet lots of resistance. Plenty of guys are ready and waiting to drop propecia in favor of a safer way to achieve the same results. This discussion along with many other topicals already out there will result most likely in nothing that meets this criteria. Yes finasteride changes a lot of things and other pathways we already knew that along with sexual sides yes we knew that too. You want to keep your hair your take propecia or just live with going bald or waste your money on other things.

 

[LawOfThelema]

does this product contain equol itself or does it aim to convert one into an equol producer by providing factors needed to change the gut microbiota which would metabolize the isoflavone of soy into equol?

2020, why are you saying finasteride and dutasteride only maintain? they reverse minuaturization and regrow to some extent as well. someone who isnt slick bald should be able to regrow by taking enough equol. but yeah the dose in the bottle they are selling is too low. if i am reading that Doctor correctly they got +2 hairs? lol give me a ****ing break. finasteride at the usual dose gets like what on average +30 hairs, dutas like +50? however if long term it prevents further loss at that dose, it is still good since the side effect should be much reduced compared to finasteride and dutasteride.

 

[2020]

does this product contain equol itself or does it aim to convert one into an equol producer by providing factors needed to change the gut microbiota which would metabolize the isoflavone of soy into equol?

nope, it contains the actual equol so no worries if you're not a natural equol producer.

2020, why are you saying finasteride and dutasteride only maintain? they reverse minuaturization and regrow to some extent as well. someone who isnt slick bald should be able to regrow by taking enough equol. but yeah the dose in the bottle they are selling is too low. if i am reading that Doctor correctly they got +2 hairs? lol give me a ****ing break. finasteride at the usual dose gets like what on average +30 hairs, dutas like +50? however if long term it prevents further loss at that dose, it is still good since the side effect should be much reduced compared to finasteride and dutasteride.

right the results are weak but that's because the dose is very small... imagine what it could do at 50/100/200 mg a day?

This needs to be cheaper seriously they could take loses for a couple months but once this equol stuff becomes more popular they would get more sales and make up for the losses... The cure is right here, we just can't afford it

 

[LawOfThelema]

So what does the 24EU convert to in terms of dollars. I could afford up to 150 US dollars worth a month to do a test for a few months taking several times the dose that they took in the study. I would probably do 5x that dose. I'm not doing any other treatment as of now, so it would be an ideal situation to isolate it and see if it works. My hair is long so it would be very easy to use the hair count test to see if it is reducing or halting my loss.

ok 1 EU is 1.2595 USD

Yeah I could afford several times the dose they used for several months.

This is one things which I think has good anecdotal and epidemiological data as well as a good theoretical basis compared to a lot of the other snake oils.

Sequestering DHT itself is ideal. 5 alpha reductase has other functions in the body, and inhibiting it likely explains a lot of the side effects more than reduced dihydrotestosterone itself. Not inhibiting 5ar in the brain is a huge plus in terms of making this safer than the **** like duta. Not inhibiting 5ar should also keep your T to E ratio in balance by not having testosterone cascade into other hormonal pathways which would also mean less sides.

 

[Ted82]

2020 and everyone else who is excited about this, I would really appreciate some input about this:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6912387_functions-dht_.html

"Estrogen Inhibition
DHT inhibits estrogen in three ways. It directly hinders estrogen's ability to act on tissues. It inhibits the aromatase enzyme that produces estrogen from other androgen components. And DHT decreases the secretion of gonadotropin, from which the raw materials for estrogen production are derived."

This would mean that we still get an increase in estrogen

 

[Folexen]

Aks20, I just wanted to respond to your concerns re: bone density. DHT may help with increasing bone density, but S-equol does too:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21252728
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20013821

I'll see if there is any literature on possible side effects, but the compound has not been vigorously studied in that regard. Safety research is more intensive around synthetics.

 

[Folexen]

2020 and everyone else who is excited about this, I would really appreciate some input about this:

http://www.ehow.com/facts_6912387_functions-dht_.html

"Estrogen Inhibition
DHT inhibits estrogen in three ways. It directly hinders estrogen's ability to act on tissues. It inhibits the aromatase enzyme that produces estrogen from other androgen components. And DHT decreases the secretion of gonadotropin, from which the raw materials for estrogen production are derived."

This would mean that we still get an increase in estrogen

Hi Ted82. DHT has other effects, like suppressing LH (luteinizing hormone) which regulates the production of testosterone. So it does not just inhibit E2 but it inhibits production of T as well.

This paper has some relevant observations regarding the effects of isoflavones on steroid balance, in case you are interested:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19597532

* No change in estradiol or total testosterone
* SHBG increased
* Free testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) decreased

 

[2020]

So what does the 24EU convert to in terms of dollars. I could afford up to 150 US dollars worth a month to do a test for a few months taking several times the dose that they took in the study. I would probably do 5x that dose. I'm not doing any other treatment as of now, so it would be an ideal situation to isolate it and see if it works. My hair is long so it would be very easy to use the hair count test to see if it is reducing or halting my loss.

if a recommended dose is 10mg/day and you would do 5x that then that would come out to 50mg of equol a day which should be pretty effective... I'm tempted to buy a couple bottles of it too but I won't have any money until the 15th

 

[lobsterlobster]

Hey guys, just stumbled across this this morning. I too would like to try Folexen out but I'm not not as knowledgable about it as you guys. I understand that 5 times the recommended dose would produce good regrowth. At this point, I'm more interested in maintaining what I have, so I believe I won't have to pay the hefty price you're talking about. How much of this should I buy/take daily?

 

[JDW]

cancer makes more money.... people with prostate problems have the same issue -> finasteride and dutasteride wear off after some time. You can't suppresses DHT by blocking 5AR for a long time

I get that but what I'm saying is if this was proven as a viable 'cure' alternative you're making it out to be then every major pharmaceutical would be scrambling to produce it because far more people would want it than finasteride/dutasteride and they would make a massive profit off it.

 

[LawOfThelema]

^ Not necessarily. It is hard to patent a naturally occurring compound. As such naturally occurring compounds don't get the attention in pharmabiz that synthetic compounds do.

My question for folexen is this. In the US laws regulating the production of supplemental products are sparse. Vitamin and supplemental companies can sell products which contain no active ingredient despite advertising claims that they contain active ingredient. I can only imagine they'd be sparse in other western nations as well. Can you or your company prove to us that this product actually contains equol, and that it is the stereoisomer s-equol, and not r-equol which is not bioactive? If not, someone would have to order some and send it off to a chemical testing lab to see that it contains actual equol, s-equol, not r-equol, before anyone would commit to buying any kind of bulk of this product, which would be foolish without knowing this for certain. If this were Life Extension selling the product I wouldn't be as rigid since I know their product has a reputation and they an established company with a track record. Your company is new, and has no such track record.

And would your company be willing to work on bulk discounts say if one or more individuals wanted to buy a sizable amount of the product.

thanks.

 

[zeroes]

2020 you're going to take 25 caps a day? One bottle will last you 4 days!

 

[2020]

2020 you're going to take 25 caps a day? One bottle will last you 4 days!

no not me, that's what LawOfThelema is planning to do...

I'll try taking it at a recommended dose to see if it's enough to make a difference

 

[LawOfThelema]

Yes, one bottle would last you a few days if you took 5x the dose. S-equol is very bioactive and easily absorbed by the body, so upping the dose should be good. Like I said it'd be around 150 a month. If it would regrow your hair with less sides than finasteride and dutasteride, it would be worth it as far as I am concerned. A lot of people spend this amount in bucketloads of supplements that probably dont even work, or if they work they work very mildly. If you did this for a few months and it worked then you could post your pictures and story all on the web and people would pressure them to drop the price or up the dose. If it didn't work, well you'd be out a few hundred bucks, but then it's one more think you could write off on the list of solutions that sounded good on paper but never worked.

He's my proposition to the company employee. I'll buy enough for 5x the dose daily for 5 months if they can provide it to me at the current discounted price for all 5 months. If they can't do that, then I won't buy any, and I'll just wait for someone else to come along and make it cheaper or for a bunch of guys to get a group buy and get a chemical company to synthesize it. They should assent to this since if it is effective it would boost their sales since I'd spam every hair site with how good it is if it works.

 

[Folexen]

^ Not necessarily. It is hard to patent a naturally occurring compound. As such naturally occurring compounds don't get the attention in pharmabiz that synthetic compounds do.

My question for folexen is this. In the US laws regulating the production of supplemental products are sparse. Vitamin and supplemental companies can sell products which contain no active ingredient despite advertising claims that they contain active ingredient. I can only imagine they'd be sparse in other western nations as well. Can you or your company prove to us that this product actually contains equol, and that it is the stereoisomer s-equol, and not r-equol which is not bioactive? If not, someone would have to order some and send it off to a chemical testing lab to see that it contains actual equol, s-equol, not r-equol, before anyone would commit to buying any kind of bulk of this product, which would be foolish without knowing this for certain. If this were Life Extension selling the product I wouldn't be as rigid since I know their product has a reputation and they an established company with a track record. Your company is new, and has no such track record.

And would your company be willing to work on bulk discounts say if one or more individuals wanted to buy a sizable amount of the product.

thanks.

Hi LawOfThelema. I've scanned-in an HPLC chromatogram, you can find it at: http://folexen.com/public/hplc-batch001.jpg

Due to the nature of the production process, Folexen only contains the natural S(-) isomer.

HPLC was carried out by derivatisation of the sample using MTPA (methoxytriflurophenylacylchloride), but as you can see there is only one peak so there is only S-equol in the sample (our standard is for elution at 22min which is a match).

If the sample was racemic then there would be two peaks with close relative abundance.

I'm happy to send a sample to an independent lab too if that would help ease your concerns.

Yes, we could work out a bulk discount. I'll post some info here soon.

 

[lobsterlobster]

Law of Therma, the Messiah.

 

[2020]

In that study they measured the difference in the number of FOLLICULAR UNITS vs the actual hair density before and after equol, right?
If so, then the results may be better than they appear since one FOLLICULAR UNIT contains more than one hair.....

 

[LawOfThelema]

To those concerned about side effects, lets actually learn something.

Here is a very recent review in the Journal of Sexual Medicine which reviews the prevalence of side effect to to 5 alpha reductase inhibiting therapy:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2010.02157.x/abstract

If you read the details you'll see that side effects are believed to come about due to the following mechanisms.

1.actual Lowered DHT concentration

2. Altering of neurosteroid concentrations in the brain due to inhibition of the 5ar enzymes itself

3. and the effect on other hormones due to the DHT pathway being blocked.

The main one affected by lessened DHT is ones relating to erection strength, and, erectile dysfunction.

It seems the bulk of the sides are coming from increased estrogen due to free T following other pathways once the DHT pathway is blocked, and the neurosteroid differences due to inhibiting 5ar. The latter is in my view and many others the worst aspect of 5ar inhibition as affecting the brain can lead to sexual side effects as well as mental side effects and potential neurological side effects. Gynecomastia is likely coming from the altered E to T ratio. Altering neurosteroids can bring on depression and depression can itself result in erectile dysfunction or it can exasperate any sexual dysfunction.

I will add as an aside, the nocebo effect has been actually found to be significant in 5ar inhibiting drugs. What is nocebo? This is the psychological amplification of sides due to the knowledge that you have that you may get sides. Incidence was something like 45% saw sides in those who knew the existence of sides compared to around 20% or less in those who didnt have any knowledge of the sides. Interpret this as you will.

 

[Nex]

So let me see if I have this right, we consume an S equol supplement because we are unsure if our bodies will create S equol from the Soy we eat?

Also has anyone ordered this yet?

 

[LawOfThelema]

That is correct. If the sides of fina and duta are caused by the 3 points I listed above, then something like S-equol which could bind DHT, should have a much reduced side effect profile since it is only doing one of the three things that are believed to account for sides.

Folexen, your account does help somewhat, but for all I know that sequol you wrote in may well be another substance. Or maybe you just scanned in some random chromatograph. Independent lab analysis would ease my concern.