Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[Andi0501]

@JaneyElizabeth,

I thank you for being so involved in this forum and for passing on your great knowledge to us.

I m a guy from Germany Europe.

After unsuccessful years in the treatment of male pattern baldness, I have already toyed with the idea of using smaller amounts of estradiol, because my previous therapy against hair loss with finasteride, dutasteride, RU58841, minoxidil and microneedling was and is unfortunately not very successful in recent years.
I am a 52 year old man with Norwood 3.5 who would like to keep his hair and would like to improve with a little regrowth, especially in the forehead area. Certainly estradiol, cyproterone acetate and spironolactone are currently the most effective remedies against male pattern baldness and for to achieve regrowth, but it is difficult for a cis man to use this due to the side effects and, if so, only in a low dose to keep feminization effects low, for example 2 mg estradiol daily or 50 mg spironolactone daily . Also attached are photos of my status at a young age and to this day.

My hair loss started when I was 21 years old and despite of currently 0.5 Dutasterid per day (5 month now), 1 xMinoxidil topical per day, Minoxidil 5mg oral per day and microneedling don't get a visible improvement especially on forehead where is my problem area for about 14 years now.
Have used Finasterid from 1999 till 2020 (with a brake between 2004 and 2009) and Minoxidil since 1994 with just little breaks)

 

[Andi0501]

@JaneyElizabeth,

thank you for taking the trouble to answer me in such detail. I admire your tremendous commitment to this forum and helping other people in this regard!

From 2016 to 2018 I managed to improve one Noorwood level in the area of the forehead and strokes with 5 mg oral minoxidil plus 1.25 mg finasteride twice a day as well as topical minoxidil and the area of my problem area on the forehead so that my hairline became a little better!
In the Noorwood 1.5 to 3 range, I still have vellus hair approx. 2 to 3 cm long, with conventional treatment methods they have not become thicker or longer but also not thinner for many years now. If I look closely at my forehead in the mirror, I can still see little thin hair in my Norwood 1 area or even the 0,5 area. I used to have a rather deep hairline on my forehead in young age. So you can see that even after a long time hair still exists, but in a dormant state and is therefore no longer able to grow vigorously.

I will take your precious tips and continue to take 0.5 mg dutasteride per day and minoxidil topically and also once per days 5 mg minoxidil orally to maintain my status.

Also will continue with micro needling 1.5 mm at least every two weeks which gave me a lift ticketing in the whole Norwood 3,5 area in conjunction with Minoxidil.

I also have planned to take either estriol or a maximum of 1 to 2 mg of estradiol per day and maybe 50ml spironolactone per day orally and then carefully watch whether I achieve a certain benefit for hair growth and what it looks like with feminization effects you want to keep as low as possible.
Surely it were possible to do a hair transplant forward to Norwood 2 or 1.5, but still don't consider that, since hair transplants also bring many disadvantages and basically only cause a certain redistribution of the hair which is often not satisfactory

 

[franzliszt]

I am really impressed by your breadth of knowledge and that of ROE and some of the other young guys and gals. So much nicer than on Tressless where I used to get very frustrated, lol.

I like to think everyone's nicer here because of the estrogen, plus you have to be liberal and open minded to try it in the first place. I understand what you mean about Tressless, it's the same 5 questions repeated because people there don't know how to search.

 

[FrenchUser]

The first man on the poost change, he look more a girl now, but a great result but it's not dangerous to take product to feminise ?
my case is desperate but I prefer to end up bald male than hairy feminized

 

[Jacob Williams]

The alcohol from estrogel is a bit brutal on my scalp. I wonder if I could buy estrogen powder somewhere and make my own vehicle that’s less irritating.

 

[tato123]

I want to make a few comments here for taking HRT and maybe my information can help someone.

I started CPA + Oestrogel + 5ar inhibitor

today he has almost a month , and a little more time in Oestrogel alone.

I feel good, my libido has fallen but as everyone said I think I'm preferring it like this, I still have normal sex with my girlfriend, my skin has improved a lot I have nothing to say everyone is asking me what I'm doing on my skin, I feel my hair strong, it seems that my leather is more alive my hair is making more volume I can see hair growing in the seasons, very small, but they are there, I feel that my skin oiliness has dropped but I lost a little muscle tone, I have a lot of muscle mass and little fat, but I feel less dense, but I expected and I don't care.

And my mind? I start to feel what JaneyElizabeth says, I feel good, better than ever, I feel like talking to my friends, my baldness makes me depressed, I feel happy I can't say very well how it works, my fear is the next, I'm really enjoying HRT it scares me.

PS: Be careful if you are going to start any regime of this type !, be aware of what you are doing, we are not here to influence anyone on the contrary, we are only here to inform the decision of each one!

Incredibly for the first time I see myself "like" the trans guy, not in the gay sense, but because we have one thing in common, the hair brought us together, I broke foolish paradigms in this topic, thanks to everyone who commented here I read the 600 pages

 

[franzliszt]

As I look at this again, you can really provide some insight about the 'mide family. Bica and flutamide appear to work more or less the same but bica is much, much easier on the liver. Enzalutamide, to my knowledge, works differently by not crossing the blood-brain barrier but it is rarely explained why this matters to results or why this might make this a better med for cis-males so maybe you can inform us related to why Enza, as I now christen it, is a better evolution for you conceptually, and perhaps you can report periodically on how it makes you feel and any sides.

I am wondering how much you paid and whether the cost makes it viable long-term or for any of the rest of us, MtF and cis, alike.

My reasoning for choosing enzalutamide is because I know both bicalutamide and estrogen aren't enough to stop hairloss and masculinization, only after starting finasteride did I start to see results. However, finasteride gives me some nasty sides such as brain fog (really does effect my work), and depression. From what I understand, this effect isn't from a lack of binding DHT, it's the effect of inhibiting the alpha 5 reductase enzyme that causes these sides. Enzalutamide has a significantly higher binding affinity to the AR when compared to bica (8-10 times more potent that bica, with a binding affinity 2 times lower than DHT), in addition to inhibiting nuclear translocation of the AR and prevents AR binding to the DNA. So it works in three ways, compared to traditional receptor blockers.
Side effect wise, there is an increased seizure risk of I think 1%, and the possibility of panic attacks as it binds to the GABA receptor, which is responsible for stress regulation. In terms of long term usage, it seems safer than bica. Bica comes with problems such as cardiovascular problems, heart failure, hepatoxicity, lung toxicity etc. Enzalutamide includes a risk of hepatoxicity (less than Bica), renal failure, hypertension etc. Overall, I think Enzalutamide is safe, especially considering a lower dose than the reccomended 160mg could be used for trans people (currently on 45mg).
I paid $300 for the powder form china (10grams) and the excipients weren't that much, some PG, Labrasol and ethanol. So far I think it may have induced hypertension, or it was possibly the 12mg dose of estradiol I injected (I intend reduce the dose as this isn't healthy or sustainable).

 

[franzliszt]

So are you ingesting it orally or using it topically? I seem to recall following topical experiments in another thread where Enza didn't pan out via that method, at least without estrogen. Mentioning GABA then, I might have the notion regarding crossing the blood brain barrier reversed. Back when GHB was legal (oh, did I love it dearly!), the reason why it had such instantaneous and wonderful effects was apparently that it went easily through the blood brain barrier while GABA itself when supplemented does not.

I'm taking it orally, via a liquid solution (the Labrasol tastes foul). Enza crosses the bbr, whereas darolutamide doesn't. Daro is the safer and more efficacious drug, but even the raw powder is prohibitively expensive. I received a quote for 600grams ( a 2.7 year supply at the recommended 600mg a day dose ) at 54000 USD.

 

[franzliszt]

Scalp Hair Regrowth for XY's Using HRT to Hit Targets

Something that I have struggled to articulate and describe related to hair regrowth/improvement has to do with the pattern in which growth/regrowth/improvement presents itself. Although I never saw any regrowth ever from polysorbates, Min or finasteride, I maintained nicely. Nevertheless, some did see regrowth especially younger users and the regrowth seemed to occur as expected in the crown and less so in the temples.

What I seem to be experiencing though is more akin to cessation of female male pattern baldness or FMPB, meaning that it is improving essentially everywhere on my head at the same time and I have struggled to point to areas of improvement aside from overall appearance because of this. I propose that MtF's hitting targets might not see any significantly lopsided areas of the scalp that improve, as opposed to seeing lots of little hairs in the corners. Because I have diffuse thinning, though, my observations might be different from those who primarily bald in the temples and crown, in either or both of those areas.

I say this to encourage those along the path. Pay attention to the overall quality of your hair and how it manages and presents in terms of holding a hairstyle. Even now, virtually all of my pure regrowth is in front of the ears and I never really thought of those areas to be "balding" at all since they might be considered a sort of lateral "maturing" hairline.

Scalp Hair Regrowth for XY's Using HRT to Hit Targets

Something that I have struggled to articulate and describe related to hair regrowth/improvement has to do with the pattern in which growth/regrowth/improvement presents itself. Although I never saw any regrowth ever from polysorbates, Min or finasteride, I maintained nicely. Nevertheless, some did see regrowth especially younger users and the regrowth seemed to occur as expected in the crown and less so in the temples.

What I seem to be experiencing though is more akin to cessation of female male pattern baldness or FMPB, meaning that it is improving essentially everywhere on my head at the same time and I have struggled to point to areas of improvement aside from overall appearance because of this. I propose that MtF's hitting targets might not see any significantly lopsided areas of the scalp that improve, as opposed to seeing lots of little hairs in the corners. Because I have diffuse thinning, though, my observations might be different from those who primarily bald in the temples and crown, in either or both of those areas.

I say this to encourage those along the path. Pay attention to the overall quality of your hair and how it manages and presents in terms of holding a hairstyle. Even now, virtually all of my pure regrowth is in front of the ears and I never really thought of those areas to be "balding"

at all since they might be considered a sort of lateral "maturing" hairline.

What would you say is the minimum time to achieve cosmetically significant hair regrowth, and at what period did you experience changes in facial complexion/smoothness? When hrt was working I noticed my skin look good at around a month.

 

[NickGardner0651]

I can vouch that ROE has some of the best results that I have ever seen for a person who had mostly diffuse thinning. ROE was starting to get a little thin in the crown but basically had coverage everywhere but it was very, very thin. His after pics are perfect and show no baldness that I can perceive. I think that people with diffuse thinning have an advantage as mere thickening as opposed to actual increases in hair counts, can work wonders visually.

Are his results posted anywhere?

 

[NickGardner0651]

Because of my rampant facial dermatitis, I really only saw facial improvement after maybe six sessions of laser removal. At that point, the improvement was clear and my complexion was much lighter in color facially, as well as everywhere.

I attempt to mentally reconstruct effects under different usage amounts and protocols but I do think that hair improvement came very early after using Biestro but it wasn't noticeable to anyone else and it had to do more so with the hair having a bit more body and being able to grow longer. It still wasn't attractive and I note on my blog, that I had a hobo aspect from not cutting it. My dermatitis in said pics is acute. Here, about one third of the page down, one can see what I looked like in 2016 during a phase where I had greatly decreased my use of Biestro:

Sensitive Content Warning

I have what I feel are many useful hair and facial pics and to the extent that anyone is interested, please let me know, especially for those attempting to predict or who feel that they might be mimicking and therefore on the correct path forward. My two cents is that all males are more attractive and far younger looking after beard removal. This probably isn't seriously contested by anyone. One of the things that distinguished younger looking non-MtFs is often the lack of visible beard growth. Beard growth, furthermore, is not purely digital, meaning that it increases often in terms of thickness, sebum production and growth rate and length. Indeed, white males often see a sustained and consistent increase in beard growth post-puberty, in terms of thickness and ability for the beard to grow long that can continue over decades.

Note how this in many ways seems to be the inverse of cis-females but females tend to carry more hair in terms of measured weight than beard growers but we all have seen some extraordinary individuals with beard growth that is substantial enough to be compared to cis-female scalp hair growth.

In terms of analyzing temporal constraints for hair improvement, that is a perplexing question and a very important one for non-MtF's if not the most important. Are hair results linear, like beard "improvement" or are they rather more "digital" in essence and only occur when circulating estradiol meets adult female targets? Or is it a blend based upon some hair receptors being marginally more available than others to increased estrogen levels that don't meet say Wpath targets?

My current thought is the latter meaning most people might see hair improvement even when using amounts of estrogen that are barely effectual for feminization and this effect might be maximized via local effects using topical estrogens. To actually "regrow" substantial amounts of hair and achieve hair with the appearance of a caucasian female's, however, then we might be more so in digital territory where the best method would be to hit targets as soon as possible, and that it is this, that actually "turns on" hair regrowth epigenetically. While all estrogen methods seem to work essentially the same in terms of feminization in the longer-term, some, like injections, can apparently propel a person into the hormonal levels of an adult cis-female in as little time as two weeks. Using premarin in the amounts that I was using can be just as effective or more so in the long term as titrated upwards but it can take a really long time to get there, often more than two years, if at all. This is where the AA's tend to show their utility temporally.

We don't appear to have many syringe users on here but their experiences in terms of how quickly they met initially adult female hormonally levels is of great interest. Syringes are a bit advanced though although very cheap and few MtF's start off on I.V. ingestion methods.

So, as a TLR for cis-males using or hoping to use female hormonal medications to improve or restore hair loss without excessive feminization, the hope is that some intermediate level of E2 and T can be found that effectuates the greatest hair improvement possible while not feminizing excessively. My feeling is that this is more likely to be possible in a hair maintenance context where estrogen is used on the scalp in conjunction with a reductase inhibitor or perhaps an AA. It might be possible to establish a "rule of thumb" jumping off point for cis-males, aside from the no estrogen at all fear where one could get to the region that best maximizes an individual's overall self-perceived utility in terms of both "maleness" and hair.

Even more so on the plus side in terms of looking at things is the idea that this gives all of us two different bites at the apple. First we can try an incremental approach to increasing estrogen levels and then if that is insufficient, a person can then implement an ingestion method that will quickly reach targets like multiple patches or using injections.

Achieving regrowth without major feminization is the goal. When my stuff comes in (about 2 weeks) I will be starting a low dose of 1mg Estradiol (orally) and a small amount of Biestro applied to the target areas including a small dose of spironolactone (50mg). I feel as though I have a relatively strong baseline compared to more aggressive forms of male pattern baldness that need more aggressive regimens. My thought process is that if androgens (T and DHT) are causing miniturization from a more androgenic balance in hormones maybe what is needed for cis-males is the balance of hormones to be shifted slightly towards more estrogenic without crashing T or having E elevate too quickly. I believe if the correct balance/ratio is achieved (different amount for everyone) then it will provide an environment for hair to grow properly (without miniturization) and allow growth stimulates (oral minoxidil) to do their job more effectively.

 

[franzliszt]

New Pics: In the first one, there is almost a sneering aspect with my eyes which I enjoy. Trying a bit to show off my latisse lashes. Latisse never quite made it into my routine; too expensive and too eh. The hair is getting very long in back and I see no mullet artifacts at all. Score!

In pic two, it is evident how the hair is thickening everywhere except for the Goddess-damn corners. @bridgeburn never was happy with his temples either. It is an area of high surface tension which is by definition, slick bald, which is easy to forget. Growing hair from slick bald scalp is the ultimate bald man fantasy or is it quest. Just like Homer in season two, episode two growing that magnificent mane from nothingness. I am not thrilled seeing the evident part in pic two but that is mostly due to the flash. It doesn't look as thin in the mirror.

Thickening up nicely. I think you've said before that you wouldn't consider a transplant, and if things continue there won't be any need. The regrowth you've achieved, provides an excellent foundation for a transplant if you're never happy about the temple area.

 

[franzliszt]

Transplants, well, I don't talk about it much for a couple of reasons but mostly because it is so painful. I tried a couple of times to do transplants and very few of them took and they didn't lie flat, and I had horrible scarring on the sides of my head and in the back. Since I had diffuse thinning they tried to go in between existing hair. I was lucky that I had enough hair so that it mostly blended in but it really put me off transplants and that was even before people realized that plugs from diffuse thinners were likely to become more diffuse. Lucky for me, proscar came out that year so it didn't really become an issue.

Microneedling has been healing for me because I can actually see the scar tissue from the transplants healing each time. The scars scab over and get smaller and smaller and blend in. Normally, areas of failed transplants wouldn't be viable for new growth but I believe that microneedling and the insights from the mouse plucking studies show a path to healing such scar tissue whereby the tissue shrinks and the other follicles in the area become slightly thicker to compensate or via cross-talk, the surrounding follicles imprint the tissue and in essence create a new follicle, which we used to think was impossible.

Anyway, someone objected when I called SRS "mutiliation". But that's just how I am. There's no value judgment when I use mutilation to mean that tissue functioning correctly according to its DNA is harvested and moved elsewhere. I know that they are much more expert now but I also have read that maybe the the old six hair plugs were superior precisely because of the signaling issue.

Now that the scarring on top of my head is largely gone/integrated, I continue working on the scar tissue on the sides. I am fortunate that the hair in these areas is not "see through" but it almost was at one point. It originally took several years before the fringe scar tissue healed enough to stop itching. My doctor told me that some folks are just "scarrers". Indeed.

Goddess bless for being interested in my locks and story.

Things have come a long way since then in terms of transplants, but I understand how a botched one can put you off. Microneedling seemed to induce sheds, my scalp might just be sensitive though. On a side note, it would be really nice if this hair would stop coming out, the slightest tug and there goes six.

 

[Catagen]

You never had a minoxidil shed because you were never a good minoxidil responder. You have low sulfotransferase enzyme activity in the scalp so it cant metabolize in your body, did you ever add tretinoin to your min? You would need to try oral min and then you will see minoxidil dependant hairs are real.

So you agree @JaneyElizabeth ?

 

[franzliszt]

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking of Daro, indeed.

$54,000 lol, but that's only about $20,000 annually! People could skip college and instead address their hair loss with Daro.

Yeah, it'll probably be a few years before it's affordable. Hopefully Biden addresses the issue of overpiced drugs, we're taking these for hairloss, but some need it to survive.

 

[NickGardner0651]

Anyone have luck ordering estrogel from Amazon4Health or other sources on HRT.Cafe? seems ADC( where I usually order from) is out of stock. I also think if hair-growth is my goal going with estrogel instead of Biestro is the better option over the long term.

 

[FrenchUser]

I am 18 years old and I am bald, I want to try this miraculous technique so much but if I see myself pushing breasts I know that I will shoot myself straight away.

 

[NickGardner0651]

Yes. Just ordered estrogel from them. Their shipping is quick at 7 to 10 days.

thank you! I will give them a shot

 

[ReturnOfExtreme]

I am 18 years old and I am bald, I want to try this miraculous technique so much but if I see myself pushing breasts I know that I will shoot myself straight away.

You just have to be strategic with your regimen, but what is your hair condition currently? Any images?

 

[tato123]

@JaneyElizabeth
Hi Janey I would like your help if possible.

I read in some of your posts that maintaining an adult woman's estrogen level would prevent gynecomastia. Would we keep our hormonal levels in the female follicular phase 19.5-144.2 pg / ml?
What would be a maintenance dose of these levels? Thank you !