Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

Androgenic Alpaca

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I know this is bordering on necroposting considering how far off-topic this is, but I just had to respond because I have in the past taken the route of doing an exclusively hard systemic reduction of androgens and it did absolutely -nothing- to help my hair grow. I do believe the contrary, that not only does estrogen improve skin in certain ways, but it also induces hair growth as well, in the same way that low estrogen can induce joint pain. Estrogen is an anti-inflammatory hormone, and if you can manage to localize the effects of the estrogen to the scalp, and mitigate the titty and fat accumulation quotent (if you in fact don't want titties or to be a bit thicc), then you're basically set.
yeah your position seems to be the general consensus among most of the posters here. Blocking androgens can prevent hair loss but estrogens are needed for the dramatic regrowth. The more I think about things, the more I like the use of topical anti-androgens as there's really no need for a systemic androgen blocking just for hairloss. spironolactone could be the exception of an oral AA that is worth taking as it seems to have additional benefits for hair growth
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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yeah your position seems to be the general consensus among most of the posters here. Blocking androgens can prevent hair loss but estrogens are needed for the dramatic regrowth. The more I think about things, the more I like the use of topical anti-androgens as there's really no need for a systemic androgen blocking just for hairloss. spironolactone could be the exception of an oral AA that is worth taking as it seems to have additional benefits for hair growth


I have tried a compounding pharmacy created spironolactone solution and it didn't really work as well as I thought it would, perhaps it was the carrier or the preparation, but the androgen receptor interference that I had read about in a study that evaluated spironolactone's ability to treat cystic androgen mediated acne did not seem to help me much when it came to hair loss.

What has seemed to help quite a bit (albeit it's a bit expensive since you have to use it quite a lot) is finacea, the topical acne cream. It interferes with DHT and it has an anti-inflammatory effect, I've been using it for a bit now along with my own topical formulation of a substance known as sophora root, which in at least one study induced hair growth and supposedly interferes with DHT as well - and my hair has been recovering from a point where I would not leave the house without a hat of some kind.

I am going to actually try the .75 mg estradiol topical and see what it does, I'm very curious. I will after I start the regimen and after enough time report any results if interested.
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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I have tried a compounding pharmacy created spironolactone solution and it didn't really work as well as I thought it would, perhaps it was the carrier or the preparation, but the androgen receptor interference that I had read about in a study that evaluated spironolactone's ability to treat cystic androgen mediated acne did not seem to help me much when it came to hair loss.

What has seemed to help quite a bit (albeit it's a bit expensive since you have to use it quite a lot) is finacea, the topical acne cream. It interferes with DHT and it has an anti-inflammatory effect, I've been using it for a bit now along with my own topical formulation of a substance known as sophora root, which in at least one study induced hair growth and supposedly interferes with DHT as well - and my hair has been recovering from a point where I would not leave the house without a hat of some kind.

I am going to actually try the .75 mg estradiol topical and see what it does, I'm very curious. I will after I start the regimen and after enough time report any results if interested.

There's been speculation on this forum that topical spironolactone is less effective than oral because it needs to be metabolized through the liver. I believe that for hormonal acne, oral is the preffered route of administration (at least in women, spironolactone is not usually used in men). spironolactone has additional antagonistic effects on the aldosterone receptor, which may have benefits for hair growth as well.

Finacea appears to be azaleic acid, which is known to have good effects for hair growth.

As for estradiol - have you seen the threads on this forum about usage of estriol vs. estradiol? Estriol has a higher affinity for the β estrogen receptor and a lower affinity for the α receptor, so theoretically it should have less feminizing effects than estradiol while retaining much of the skin/hair benefit as the ERβ is the one that is mostly present in dermal tissue. I've been using estriol myself, (though not for the past week or so since I've run out and am waiting for my package from China to arrive with a resupply) and I believe that it had positive effects on my skin quality
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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What quantity and frequencyof Estriol are you applying?
I was applying 15mg twice a day in the form of an OTC menopausal cream, but since that ran out I am switching to a homemade estriol solution in ethanol/PG once my estriol powder arrives from China. I will be applying 20mg twice a day to my scalp but may consider moving up from there. (I am interested in trying to make an estriol facial cream/serum)
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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There's been speculation on this forum that topical spironolactone is less effective than oral because it needs to be metabolized through the liver. I believe that for hormonal acne, oral is the preffered route of administration (at least in women, spironolactone is not usually used in men). spironolactone has additional antagonistic effects on the aldosterone receptor, which may have benefits for hair growth as well.

Finacea appears to be azaleic acid, which is known to have good effects for hair growth.

As for estradiol - have you seen the threads on this forum about usage of estriol vs. estradiol? Estriol has a higher affinity for the β estrogen receptor and a lower affinity for the α receptor, so theoretically it should have less feminizing effects than estradiol while retaining much of the skin/hair benefit as the ERβ is the one that is mostly present in dermal tissue. I've been using estriol myself, (though not for the past week or so since I've run out and am waiting for my package from China to arrive with a resupply) and I believe that it had positive effects on my skin quality

You may want to check this, I don't like the fact they used acetone as a carrier as that sounds like it's terrible for hair growth regardless.


Then there's this conflicting study, or seemingly so from what I can interpret.


How are you managing sides? Or are you transitioning? I'm wondering if a .75 mg dose could be managed without anastrozole or tamoxifen, if not I guess I'll have to figure that out.
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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I know this is bordering on necroposting considering how far off-topic this is, but I just had to respond because I have in the past taken the route of doing an exclusively hard systemic reduction of androgens and it did absolutely -nothing- to help my hair grow. I do believe the contrary, that not only does estrogen improve skin in certain ways, but it also induces hair growth as well, in the same way that low estrogen can induce joint pain. Estrogen is an anti-inflammatory hormone, and if you can manage to localize the effects of the estrogen to the scalp, and mitigate the titty and fat accumulation quotent (if you in fact don't want titties or to be a bit thicc), then you're basically set.
Good to see you here posting. Would love to know what all you are taking and what you find most efficacious.
 

John Difool

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You need to bump this.
I was applying 15mg twice a day in the form of an OTC menopausal cream, but since that ran out I am switching to a homemade estriol solution in ethanol/PG once my estriol powder arrives from China. I will be applying 20mg twice a day to my scalp but may consider moving up from there. (I am interested in trying to make an estriol facial cream/serum)

I am at 20mg twice a day. I use this formula which deliver 20x the penetration of Estrogel.

The formula is detailed as:
  • 29.4 % oleic acid
  • 11.8% isopropyl myristate
  • 38.2% ethanol
  • 11.8% PBS buffer to pH 7.4
  • 8.8% Span 80 (aka sorbitane monooleate, sorbitan oleate),
https://doi.org/10.1016/s0378-5173(02)00632-4 (behind paywall, use sci-hub)
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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Has anyone had any luck finding "OTC" menopausal creams locally, without having to use Amazon or Ebay? It seems as though they would be back there with the real Sudofed but I have only used ones bought online which has meant Life Flo with a couple of competitors here and there.
 

JaneyElizabeth

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5α-Reductase inhibitors: Some transgender women may experience male pattern hair loss and may seek treatments to arrest hair loss and/or restore hair. In general, lowering serum testosterone levels into the cisgender female range is often adequate to arrest hair loss in most transgender women; however, there are still some transgender women who experience hair loss despite lowered serum testosterone levels. A few case series in transgender women with androgenetic alopecia have demonstrated finasteride therapy to be effective to improve hair loss without significant side effects (70, 71). The routine use of 5α-reductase inhibitors has been limited over previous concerns of long-term sexual dysfunction and depression reported to be found in cisgender men.

Feminization in transgender women​


Treatment with estrogen and testosterone-lowering medications will induce feminine and reduce masculine physical characteristics Fig. 1 (41). The most studied physical change in transgender women is the development of breast tissue. An Italian cohort study found increases in breast size were the only physical feature that was significantly associated with improvement in body uneasiness scores (43). However, <20% of transgender women reach Tanner breast stage 4 to 5 after 24 months of hormone therapy and thus often seek mammoplasty. Early studies in transgender women indicated breast development reached a maximum size by 2 years (74). However, a more recent study of 229 transgender women participating in the European Network for the Investigation of Gender Incongruence cohort found that breast development reached a plateau within the first 6 months of therapy and half of the transgender women had a AAA cup size or less (75). Fisher et al. (43) also found that testicular volume decreased by ~60% after 24 months of transfeminine hormone therapy.

Transgender Males:

In a retrospective, observational study, 81 transgender men treated with testosterone esters or testosterone undecanoate self-assessed the degree of male pattern baldness using a five-point scale [i.e., type I (no hair loss) to type V (complete hair loss)]. The authors found that 38% of transgender men had male pattern baldness types II to V. Thinning of hair was related to the duration of androgen administration and present in half of the transgender men after 13 years (124). Wierckx et al. (44) reported that 17% of participants developed androgenic alopecia based on the Norwood–Hamilton classification after 1 year of treatment. Longer-term (10 years on average) testosterone treatment was associated with 32% of mild frontotemporal hair loss and 31% moderate to severe androgenetic alopecia (101). In 10 transgender men with androgenetic alopecia, treatment with oral finasteride at 1 mg daily for 12 months induced improvement with one grade on the Norwood–Hamilton scale after a mean of 5.5 months since the start of treatment
 
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JaneyElizabeth

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Cyproterone Acetate Superfluous for HRT when Compared with Low-dose Estradiol:

This is a recent study. I am not sure how long it takes for them to circulate, but this study, if I read it correctly, is another reason to avoid CPA as it's extra feminizing aspects seem to be minimal while exposing a person to hepic and perhaps others sorts of harm:

This study is the first to evaluate the use of low doses of estrogens in TW. We have demonstrated that low estrogen doses alone or with CA are effective toward maintaining androgen suppression and serum E2 within the normal follicular-phase range.

Evaluations of the effects of low-dose estrogen therapy on physical changes, namely, breast development, facial hair growth, body hair growth and body fat redistribution, were not possible in our patient population because all of the patients reported prior use of other estrogen formulations without medical supervision for a variable period of time. However, the maintenance of estrogen levels in the normal female range suggests that low-dose estrogen therapy may be able to promote the satisfactory feminization of these patients. The facial hair response to hormonal treatment in transsexuals, even at high estrogen doses, is very poor and often requires complementary cosmetic treatments such as laser treatments and electrolysis. In addition, many signs of feminization, including breast development, depend on not only the estrogen dose but also the individual patient’s sensitivity to estrogen. In a cohort of transsexuals receiving high doses of estrogen, the result of breast augmentation from hormones was described as modest, and the rate of breast augmentation surgery in a series of transsexuals was generally as high as 70% (25-27). Nevertheless, all patients in our cohort achieved an advanced Tanner’ stage (IV and V) in breast development.


METHODS:
The serum hormone and biochemical profiles of 51 transgender women were evaluated before gonadectomy. Hormone therapy consisted of conjugated equine estrogen alone or combined with cyproterone acetate. The daily dose of conjugated equine estrogen was 0.625 mg in 41 subjects and 1.25 mg in 10 subjects, and the daily dose of cyproterone acetate was 50 mg in 42 subjects and 100 mg in one subject.

RESULTS:
Estrogen-only therapy reduced the testosterone, luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone levels from 731.5 to 18 ng/dL, 6.3 to 1.1 U/L and 9.6 to 1.5 U/L, respectively. Estrogen plus cyproterone acetate reduced the testosterone, luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone levels from 750 to 21 ng/dL, 6.8 to 0.6 U/L and 10 to 1.0 U/L, respectively. The serum levels of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, testosterone, estradiol and prolactin in the patients treated with estrogen alone and estrogen plus cyproterone acetate were not significantly different. The group receiving estrogen plus cyproterone acetate had significantly higher levels of gamma-glutamyltransferase than the group receiving estrogen alone. No significant differences in the other biochemical parameters were evident between the patients receiving estrogen alone and estrogen plus cyproterone acetate.

CONCLUSION:
In our sample of transgender women, lower estrogen doses than those usually prescribed for these subjects were able to adjust the testosterone and estradiol levels to the physiological female range, thus avoiding high estrogen doses and their multiple associated side effects.

In our sample of TW, lower estrogen doses than those usually prescribed for these subjects were able to adjust the T and E2 levels to the physiological female range, avoiding the risks of high estrogen doses. Both regimens, namely, CEE alone or with CA, achieved the laboratory goals in the treatment of TW.
 
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Androgenic Alpaca

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You may want to check this, I don't like the fact they used acetone as a carrier as that sounds like it's terrible for hair growth regardless.


Then there's this conflicting study, or seemingly so from what I can interpret.


How are you managing sides? Or are you transitioning? I'm wondering if a .75 mg dose could be managed without anastrozole or tamoxifen, if not I guess I'll have to figure that out.

Estriol (E3) is much less potent than Estradiol (E2) in terms of activity on the ER, binding affinity to the ER, and absorption, so my guess would be that even a 1mg/day dose of E2 would have more feminizing effect than the 40mg/day dosage of E3 used by members of this forum.

https://sci-hub.se/10.1210/er.2006-0020 is one of the most thorough examinations of the effects of estrogens on hair follicles. When I have more time this evening I'll read through the studies that you linked.

Also, I think taking anastrozole with E2 would not be effective and counter-productive. Aromatase exists in the dermal papilla of hair follicles so taking an AI would lead to reduced amounts of E2 in the follicles itself while the exogenous E2 would lead to a higher blood-serum level of E2 thus sides of gynecomastia. So you'd still get gynecomastia while the hair-regrowth effects would be negated. Anecdotally, users on this forum who've used AIs have experienced massive hair sheds.

I think E2 + a SERM (eg, tamoxifen, raloxifene) may be the most promising estrogen therapy for androgenic alopecia and will probably be what I "upgrade" to if E3 therapy proves inadequate
 

Androgenic Alpaca

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You need to bump this.


I am at 20mg twice a day. I use this formula which deliver 20x the penetration of Estrogel.

The formula is detailed as:
  • 29.4 % oleic acid
  • 11.8% isopropyl myristate
  • 38.2% ethanol
  • 11.8% PBS buffer to pH 7.4
  • 8.8% Span 80 (aka sorbitane monooleate, sorbitan oleate),
https://doi.org/10.1016/s0378-5173(02)00632-4 (behind paywall, use sci-hub)

Thank you for linking that study, will read through it when I have more time this evening.

I understand that E3 has very poor absorption so I would like to use some penetration enhancers. This is something that I need to do more research on. @pegasus2 uses DMSO.

Just a thought that I had: could too much penetration actually be bad, especially for E2? Here I'm trying to distinguish between transdermal and topical application. Transdermal application (like in the study you linked) aims for systematic absorption into the blood serum, while a topical application would focus on keeping the absorption to the dermal area surrounding the application site. So a transdermal application would have side effects whereas a purely topical application may not. I am not a pharmecokineticist so I may be talking out my *** here
 

John Difool

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I believe @pegasus2 uses DMSO to stack up powders that don't dissolve in DMSO. It's always simpler to apply one solution.

For hormones like Estrogens mixed separately I would refrain from using DMSO in the formula. First you don't need DMSO to dissolve these powders. Ethanol can do it with their solubility at your dosage But more importantly DMSO is a tough solvent on your scalp and applying it daily can cause skin damage over time.
 
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franzliszt

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I believe @pegasus2 uses DMSO to stack up powders that don't dissolve in DMSO. It's always simpler to apply one solution.

For hormones like Estrogens mixed separately I would refrain from using DMSO in the formula. First you don't need DMSO to dissolve these powders. Ethanol can do it with their solubility at your dosage But more importantly DMSO is a tough solvent on your scalp and applying it daily can cause skin damage over time.
What %of DMSO would be safe to use for topical bicalutamide?
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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Cyproterone Acetate Superfluous for HRT when Compared with Low-dose Estradiol:

Thank you for this, I was wondering if it was useful, but since cypro is such a risky drug I think I'll stick to trying a topical estrogen.
 

DogoDiLaurentiis

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Good to see you here posting. Would love to know what all you are taking and what you find most efficacious.

Mostly topicals right now, with an emphasis on ones that go systemic as little as possible.

I've done the androgen disruptor route and while I still use a lower-grade less side effect heavy one, I don't believe at all that it is the focal point of my issues.

Sophora root extract in a homemade topical seems to be helping me a lot as it has something to do with RNA upregulation that induces hair growth, also azelaic acid in a homemade serum.

I also have endocrine issues such as low aldosterone, and since I've gotten back on fludrocortisone my hair has improved.

I'm not back to where I was in my 20s hair wise (yet), but I have recovered enough in the last three months that I can go around without wearing a hat and not look like I'm trying to save something that's a lost cause which is a huge relief.

For me also controlling my insulin response is proving to be tricky but it seems like I might not be getting enough glucose into my cells when I need it consistently and there are some supplements that I have taken now that help with it namely manganese and aminoguanidine.
 

Gergely

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I've been wondering about this for awhile. We all seen guys with high estrogen levels. They're usually fat, have gyno and yet they are also balding.
High estrogen in women also can cause hairloss, albeit not male pattern baldness. Why is that?

Edit: Maybe in women it's just a case of hormonal imbalance?
And in men a myriad of other factors including diabetes?
 
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Hair We Go Go

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Noooo - I hope high estrogen doesn't cause further hairloss. How high is high tho? I last tested at 900pg/ml and my hair (where it grows) is quite nice right now.
 
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