Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

bridgeburn

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Nice! What is ur dosage and frequency of dutasteride?

U take oral CA? What does that do for male pattern baldness?
.5mg Everyday.
CA blocks the androgen receptor and also lowers Testosterone production.
 

IdealForehead

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I believe Estrogen is directly good for hair.

Experiments done on Eunuchs showed that giving them Testosterone injections caused hairloss. But when you stop giving them T, their hair does not grow back. Their hair loss just stops progressing.
but unlike eunuchs transgenders can experience amazing hair regrowth.

Its also noted medically that women may experience thicker hair during pregnancy when estrogen rises. but lose that extra hair after birth when estrogen falls and prolactin/progesterone rises.

studies also show that estrogen increases the anagen phase.

its also common for older women to experience hairloss after menopause.

Maybe too high levels could also cause hairloss. Its possible i could continue with only cypro, but thats really not healthy, both T and E do something to maintain bones and without much levels of any sex hormones, might get bone problems in the future.

Also I dont care about having big puffy nipples. I only care if the actual entire breast gets big. so far It's not. if it does i can get it surgerically removed.


I cannot find a single good reference that states estrogen directly promotes hair growth in any way.

The closest I just came to verifying your suggestion re: eunichs was a quote here of an anecdote posted in the comments where ONE man who was castrated was experimented upon. That's not enough to make a general decision.

Here is a 2012 study that summarizes what I'm talking about regarding estrogen and hair:

Abstract
Estrogen dysregulation causes hair disorder. Clinical observations have demonstrated that estrogen raises the telogen/anagen ratio and inhibits hair shaft elongation of female scalp hair follicles. In spite of these clinical insights, the properties of estrogen on hair follicles are poorly dissected. In the present study, we show that estrogen induced apoptosis of precortex cells and caused premature catagen by up-regulation of TGF β2. Immediately after the premature catagen, the expression of anagen chalone BMP4 increased. The up-regulation of BMP4 may further function to prevent anagen transition and maintain telogen. Interestingly, the hair follicle stem cell niche was not destructed during these drastic structural changes caused by estrogen. Additionally, dermal papilla cells, the estrogen target cells in hair follicles, kept their signature gene expressions as well as their hair inductive potential after estrogen treatment. Retention of the characteristics of both hair follicle stem cells and dermal papilla cells determined the reversibility of the hair cycle suppression. These results indicated that estrogen causes reversible hair cycle retardation by inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.

Sample Quote
The effects of estrogen on hair disorder has been well established. Due to high levels of plasma estrogens, pregnant women display a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair [22]. Their scalp hairs demonstrated an increased telogen/anagen ratio [23]. The hair shaft elongation of organ cultured female scalp HFs is also inhibited by estrogen [24], [25].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040124
I think you should read that article and reconsider. That's the most thorough article on estrogen and hair and they are very much saying estrogen does NOT have a directly positive effect on hair growth. To the contrary, they are saying it has a direct NEGATIVE effect on the follicles.
 
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InBeforeTheCure

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Bridgeburn is right. Estrogen potently enhances hair growth in fronto-temporal follicles.

e2_hair.png


Source

Remember that the effect of sex hormones on hair follicles can be very different based on where on the body the follicles come from.
 

IdealForehead

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Bridgeburn is right. Estrogen potently enhances hair growth in fronto-temporal follicles.

View attachment 67697

Source

Remember that the effect of sex hormones on hair follicles can be very different based on where on the body the follicles come from.

Wow. Thanks for posting. That's bizarre as f***.

What they say quite literally DIRECTLY contradicts the study I posted:

This is well in line with the ill-documented, but widely shared clinical experience of topically applied E2 on the male scalp in vivo (i.e., hair growth stimulation; Schumacher-Stock, 1981) and supports the anagen-prolonging effect of E2.
The 2012 study I posted goes on and on about how to the contrary, estrogen SHORTENS anagen (and INDUCES telogen).

Estrogen is obviously very complicated for hair.
 

bridgeburn

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Women are far more likely to LOSE hair during pregnancy but this is telogen effluvium. After menopause hairloss is WORSENED by re-administration of estrogen (this is one of the most common side effects of hormone replacement).

I cannot find a single good reference that states estrogen directly promotes hair growth in any way.

The closest I just came to verifying your suggestion re: eunichs was a quote here of an anecdote posted in the comments where ONE man who was castrated was experimented upon. That's not enough to make a general decision.

Here is a 2012 study that summarizes what I'm talking about regarding estrogen and hair:

Abstract
Estrogen dysregulation causes hair disorder. Clinical observations have demonstrated that estrogen raises the telogen/anagen ratio and inhibits hair shaft elongation of female scalp hair follicles. In spite of these clinical insights, the properties of estrogen on hair follicles are poorly dissected. In the present study, we show that estrogen induced apoptosis of precortex cells and caused premature catagen by up-regulation of TGF β2. Immediately after the premature catagen, the expression of anagen chalone BMP4 increased. The up-regulation of BMP4 may further function to prevent anagen transition and maintain telogen. Interestingly, the hair follicle stem cell niche was not destructed during these drastic structural changes caused by estrogen. Additionally, dermal papilla cells, the estrogen target cells in hair follicles, kept their signature gene expressions as well as their hair inductive potential after estrogen treatment. Retention of the characteristics of both hair follicle stem cells and dermal papilla cells determined the reversibility of the hair cycle suppression. These results indicated that estrogen causes reversible hair cycle retardation by inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.

Sample Quote
The effects of estrogen on hair disorder has been well established. Due to high levels of plasma estrogens, pregnant women display a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair [22]. Their scalp hairs demonstrated an increased telogen/anagen ratio [23]. The hair shaft elongation of organ cultured female scalp HFs is also inhibited by estrogen [24], [25].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0040124
I think you should read that article and reconsider. That's the most thorough article on estrogen and hair and they are very much saying estrogen does NOT have a directly positive effect on hair growth. To the contrary, they are saying it has a direct NEGATIVE effect on the follicles.

Which matches again the fact that estrogen replacement in women who are low in estrogen causes MORE hair loss, not less.
I was refering to studies on eunuchs done in the 1950's. I think it was called hamilton studies.
About pregnacy, ive always read the opposite about of what your saying. Then again hormone levels flutuate during pregnavcy and im also reading that facial hair can increase during pregnacy and im pretty sure thats not from estrogen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20502852
"Partial synchronization of the hair cycle in anagen during late pregnancy points to an estrogen effect, while aromatase inhibitors cause hair loss."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9557785
"During pregnancy, hair growth is increased, as estrogen appears to prolong the anagen phase. However, postpartum hair loss is common, and thus may be related to a decrease in estrogen and or progesterone levels."
 

IdealForehead

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I was refering to studies on eunuchs done in the 1950's. I think it was called hamilton studies.
About pregnacy, ive always read the opposite about of what your saying. Then again hormone levels flutuate during pregnavcy and im also reading that facial hair can increase during pregnacy and im pretty sure thats not from estrogen.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20502852
"Partial synchronization of the hair cycle in anagen during late pregnancy points to an estrogen effect, while aromatase inhibitors cause hair loss."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9557785
"During pregnancy, hair growth is increased, as estrogen appears to prolong the anagen phase. However, postpartum hair loss is common, and thus may be related to a decrease in estrogen and or progesterone levels."

Thanks for those also. I will have to read more to reconcile all this.

@InBeforeTheCure

I'm struggling to understand one part of the article you posted:

For human scalp hair, topical E2 has long been used in the management of telogen effluvium and androgenetic alopecia, especially in women (Wüstner and Orfanos, 1974;Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981;Sterry and Paus, 2000). Even though this remains to be unequivocally proven in vivo, it is felt that E2 inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e., how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit, yet prolongs anagen duration, thus decreasing the telogen rate (Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981;Sinclair et al, 1999). This would help to explain the clinical observation that topical E2 or high systemic E2 levels during estrogen-based contraception and during pregnancy increase the telogen/anagen ratio, thus notably improving a pre-existing telogen effluvium, while causing a telogen effluvium postpartum supposedly due to E2 withdrawal (Lynfield, 1960;Barman et al, 1969;Ebling et al, 1991).
Can you (or anyone) explain the bolded sentence? They are saying that estrogen slows down the rate of hair growth, but by slowing it down, it may prolong anagen. But then they say this effect explains how estrogen increases telogen/anagen ratio (ie. explains how estrogen makes MORE TELOGEN), and that this somehow will help improve a pre-existing effluvium.

It makes no sense to me.

Is this a mistake in the article? I doubt it could be since it's supposed to be peer-reviewed and it's a pretty important statement in a short article.

If estrogen is "increasing the telogen/anagen ratio", how on earth is it going to be improving telogen effluvium? It should make effluvium WORSE.
 

InBeforeTheCure

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Thanks for those also. I will have to read more to reconcile all this.

@InBeforeTheCure

I'm struggling to understand one part of the article you posted:

For human scalp hair, topical E2 has long been used in the management of telogen effluvium and androgenetic alopecia, especially in women (Wüstner and Orfanos, 1974;Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981;Sterry and Paus, 2000). Even though this remains to be unequivocally proven in vivo, it is felt that E2 inhibits hair shaft formation, thus lowering the rate of hair growth, i.e., how much new hair shaft is generated by the anagen hair bulb per time unit, yet prolongs anagen duration, thus decreasing the telogen rate (Schuhmacher-Stock, 1981;Sinclair et al, 1999). This would help to explain the clinical observation that topical E2 or high systemic E2 levels during estrogen-based contraception and during pregnancy increase the telogen/anagen ratio, thus notably improving a pre-existing telogen effluvium, while causing a telogen effluvium postpartum supposedly due to E2 withdrawal (Lynfield, 1960;Barman et al, 1969;Ebling et al, 1991).
Can you (or anyone) explain the bolded sentence? They are saying that estrogen slows down the rate of hair growth, but by slowing it down, it may prolong anagen. But then they say this effect explains how estrogen increases telogen/anagen ratio (ie. explains how estrogen makes MORE TELOGEN), and that this somehow will help improve a pre-existing effluvium.

It makes no sense to me.

Is this a mistake in the article? I doubt it could be since it's supposed to be peer-reviewed and it's a pretty important statement in a short article.

If estrogen is "increasing the telogen/anagen ratio", how on earth is it going to be improving telogen effluvium? It should make effluvium WORSE.

Yeah, it's a mistake. It should say "increases anagen/telogen ratio".
 

hanginginthewire

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Man bridgeburn it is heart wrenching to read all that you've tried to get out from under this terrible disease. It is truly UNJUST that the general populace doesn't understand the suffering that is accrued with this disease. You are in the prime of your life and you don't deserve this. None of us do. f*** off androgenetic and all other forms of alopecia. How many lives has alopecia ruined?
 

DHTpolice

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Is oral more effective?? I'm getting lots of effects from the gel so I think its doing a good job at boosting my E levels. I might try oral in the future. I turned 27 last month in September.
It should be, but I am not sure, need to find a study. I think 2 mg of oral E in combination with transdermal should work even better, that's what antyDHTor is doing.
 

bridgeburn

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Man bridgeburn it is heart wrenching to read all that you've tried to get out from under this terrible disease. It is truly UNJUST that the general populace doesn't understand the suffering that is accrued with this disease. You are in the prime of your life and you don't deserve this. None of us do. f*** off androgenetic and all other forms of alopecia. How many lives has alopecia ruined?
This is a beautiful well-written post. I couldn't have said it better.

And it's so true. Sometimes I wish I could relive the last ten years of my life somehow with the guarantee of a full head of hair for that time. What would it be like to not hate the wind for revealing my secret, I can't even remember. I honestly like the way wind feels but I don't enjoy that simple pleasure because of this bullshit. How can anyone possibly think its funny?!!!!! :mad:
Never have i wanted something so badly. when I see on the news images of evil people like terrorists or nazi leaders who happen to have a full head of hair I get so f*****g infuriated and dream about peeling off their scalp with a knife.
f*** alopecia, Its so fucked up. People dont think of it serious at all. but depression is serious, and hairloss causes depression, Hahahaha. and in me it caused an obsession.
 

bridgeburn

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Hahaha. Just LOL. I'm pretty sure the article from PLOS just quoted their typo directly and presto, SCIENCE.

That's depressing.
The way I interpret what I've read on pubmed is that estrogen actually causes hair to grow slower but keeps the hair in the growing phase longer.. slow and steady wins the race? but only the hair specifically in the temples, it causes to grow faster and stay in anagen..
 

bridgeburn

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Dude, I think it's the contrary. Women have great hair during pregnancy they lose it after giving birth (it's called post-partum). They also lose it at menopause along with skin elasticity and bone density due to drop of estrogen. That's why they go on hormone replacement, to keep their haor among other things. Bridge is right. Problem is estrogen are linked to hormonally induced breast cancer.
Androgens are also linked to cancer. Prostate cancer. but with this kind of regimen its almost impossible for me to get prostate cancer.
Men can also get breast cancer but they dont usually have much estrogen and so don't usually get it so obviously this regimen may increase the chance of that.
Internet says 1 in 6 men will get prostate cancer at some point if they live long enough. (in the U.S.)
and also that 1 in 8 women will get breast cancer at some point (in the U.S.)

1/8 is better than 1/6 ,So basically what I'm saying is that extreme regimens reduce the chance of getting cancer. Hahahhahaha!

:) leave the guy alone, he already said he'd reconcile his thoughts based on the contridictory studies we showed him.

synthetic oral estrogen like those in Diane 35 are what works better but they are also more dangerous (phlebite, etc.)
Indeed. but in the long term, are blood clots good for hair? :rolleyes:
 

DHTpolice

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synthetic oral estrogen like those in Diane 35 are what works better but they are also more dangerous (phlebite, etc.)
That's true. I take ethinylestradiol currently instead of bioidentical estradiol (Progynova, Estrofem, etc). It's cheaper and much stronger.
50 mcg of ethinylestradiol is equivalent to 2 mg of estradiol valerate, if I recall right. I take 1 30 mcg pill 2 t/d, therefore 60 mcg per day. After 1 year will switch to bioidentical estradiol.
 

bridgeburn

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It should be, but I am not sure, need to find a study. I think 2 mg of oral E in combination with transdermal should work even better, that's what antyDHTor is doing.
It would also be more effective cause its a higher dose, lol. I read somewhere that the gel has a higher half life than sublingual pills but I don't understand how that can be true if they both go into the blood stream. most transwoman seem to use pills more commonly than gel. I also worry that if i use the gel all the time, my skin someday might stop absorbing it as well.. but so far i think it absorbs great cause i feel something about 2 minutes after i rub it on, i feel loopy. Hahaha
Anyway I ordered the pills :) I might cycle between taking just the pills and taking just the gel, or I might try using both at the same time?
 

DHTpolice

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It would also be more effective cause its a higher dose, lol. I read somewhere that the gel has a higher half life than sublingual pills but I don't understand how that can be true if they both go into the blood stream. most transwoman seem to use pills more commonly than gel. I also worry that if i use the gel all the time, my skin someday might stop absorbing it as well.. but so far i think it absorbs great cause i feel something about 2 minutes after i rub it on, i feel loopy. Hahaha
Anyway I ordered the pills :) I might cycle between taking just the pills and taking just the gel, or I might try using both at the same time?

Trandsermal estrogen provides more stable levels, than oral; also this route of administration is considered to be the safest form of HRT, because of relatively low risk of hepatotoxicity. The only problem with gel is that it was initially intended for female type of skin, which is much thinner than men's, therefore full penetration can be problematic. From what I read, your dosage of gel is very low to achieve normal (or even low) female levels of estradiol. You might benefit from adding more estrogen to your regimen, then regrowth should appear a lot faster.
 
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