EVERYONE Will Get Finasteride Side-Effects Eventually

Pigeon

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Do you think finasteride is stupid to take, or everyone is different etc? I'm not taking it due to the gynecomastia and I cannot afford surgery so will be bald soon, as photos don't show how bad my hair really is.
If you already experience gyno then fina/duta is an obvious no go of course. And everyone is different, but I do believe most will experience sides eventually, only question is how severe these sides will be.
 

Descending Dog

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It's blocking 3/4 of the DHT, that's obviously a majority amount of the 2nd most important hormone in males and not expecting a large % of people not to be getting sides is absurd.
As stated by my comment it's more accurate to say that DHT is partially blocked, so we avoid the possibility of readers thinking that it's a complete blockage all over your body.

There is nothing absurd here because I do not expect anything from anybody, I am not that invested. Your hair, your choice. My thoughts about how worth it is, and the possible repercussions you will face being bald have already been shared in the past too.
 

Pigeon

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As stated by my comment it's more accurate to say that DHT is partially blocked, so we avoid the possibility of readers thinking that it's a complete blockage all over your body.

There is nothing absurd here because I do not expect anything from anybody, I am not that invested. Your hair, your choice. My thoughts about how worth it is, and the possible repercussions you will face being bald have already been shared in the past too.
The correct statement should be that around 70% of DHT gets blocked with fina (duta around 90%). For the uninformed "partially" could sound like 20% for example.
 

Micky_007

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As stated by my comment it's more accurate to say that DHT is partially blocked, so we avoid the possibility of readers thinking that it's a complete blockage all over your body.

There is nothing absurd here because I do not expect anything from anybody, I am not that invested. Your hair, your choice. My thoughts about how worth it is, and the possible repercussions you will face being bald have already been shared in the past too.

You make it sound like taking Finasteride will stop people from getting bald which isn't the case, even for people who don't necessarily get negative side effects they can still go bald or loose more hair than prior to taking Finasteride.

If Finasteride was nearly as effective as pro-Finasteride people/studies (falsely) claim it to be, the majority of men would have good heads of hair, but just by looking around in daily life it can blatantly be seen that is the furthest thing from the truth.

It's actually as simple as that.

Also, I believe if those of us who still have hair left can sort of hold on until 2023 when Kintor Pharmaceuticals Pyrilutamide is released, I believe it could hold us for a good few more years until the next few good treatments in the pipeline are available.
 
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Descending Dog

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The correct statement should be that around 70% of DHT gets blocked with fina (duta around 90%). For the uninformed "partially" could sound like 20% for example.
Alright, as long as it's clarified that it's not a complete inhibition then it's going to be an improvement. There is a tendency of pretending that all pathways in which the hormone is produced have been burned down and that both mental and sexual functions are lost and it's not the case (not saying this because of you but in general). Some people seem emotionally invested because of their own situation and sometimes aren't fully objective.

Although we have data about serum and scalp inhibition levels, we don't have access to the same type of information in different organs and tissues.
 

Pigeon

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Alright, as long as it's clarified that it's not a complete inhibition then it's going to be an improvement. There is a tendency of pretending that all pathways in which the hormone is produced have been burned down and that both mental and sexual functions are lost and it's not the case (not saying this because of you but in general). Some people seem emotionally invested with their own situation and aren't fully objective.

Although we have data about serum and scalp inhibition levels, we don't have access to the same type of information in different organs and tissues.
We have more and more data about that as well:

- 5-AR inhibition may result in the development of kidney dysfunction (R)

- Dutasteride, a 5-AR inhibitor, treatment increased activities of liver alanine aminotransferase and aspartate aminotransferase, suggesting dysregulation of liver metabolism (R).

- Inhibiting DHT synthesis impairs corpus cavernosum growth and trabecular smooth muscle relaxation, endothelial function and increases connective tissue deposition. This all contributes to erectile dysfunction, even in the presence of physiological levels of total testosterone (R)

- Low DHT or lowering DHT with a 5-AR inhibitor, such as finasteride or dutasteride, is associated with an increase in blood glucose and glycosylated hemoglobin A as well as the risk of type 2 diabetes (R, R, R).

- Androgens, especially DHT, upregulate insulin receptor expression and activity and increase glycogen synthesis and cholesterol uptake in the liver (R).

- DHT increases the synthesis of nitric oxide through eNOS phosphorylation thus improving circulation and vascularity (R).

- DHT promotes stress resiliency. Blocking 5-AR enhances cortisol release during stress, whereas DHT blunts it, most likely through CRH suppression (R, R).

- DHT promote spatial memory (R).

- ...

There are lot more studies but these are just some. I posted a ton scattered through this thread too.
 

Derelict

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DHT isn't important to me, i inhibit most of serum levels and only side i get is weaker orgasms which(for me) is a trivial side effect and not any reason to stop treating hair loss.
 

Descending Dog

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We have more and more data about that as well:

- 5-AR inhibition may result in the development of kidney dysfunction (R)

- Dutasteride, a 5-AR inhibitor, treatment increased activities of liver alanine aminotransferase and aspartate aminotransferase, suggesting dysregulation of liver metabolism (R).

- Inhibiting DHT synthesis impairs corpus cavernosum growth and trabecular smooth muscle relaxation, endothelial function and increases connective tissue deposition. This all contributes to erectile dysfunction, even in the presence of physiological levels of total testosterone (R)

- Low DHT or lowering DHT with a 5-AR inhibitor, such as finasteride or dutasteride, is associated with an increase in blood glucose and glycosylated hemoglobin A as well as the risk of type 2 diabetes (R, R, R).

- Androgens, especially DHT, upregulate insulin receptor expression and activity and increase glycogen synthesis and cholesterol uptake in the liver (R).

- DHT increases the synthesis of nitric oxide through eNOS phosphorylation thus improving circulation and vascularity (R).

- DHT promotes stress resiliency. Blocking 5-AR enhances cortisol release during stress, whereas DHT blunts it, most likely through CRH suppression (R, R).

- DHT promote spatial memory (R).

- ...

There are lot more studies but these are just some. I posted a ton scattered through this thread too.
The reason why I quoted you in the first place was to state that not all DHT is inhibited and that other pathways can still be active, something that you were probably aware of but was worth it to be pointed out.

After that you commented that 70% of DHT is inhibited with Finasteride, and 90% with Duta. To which I answered that although we have data about serum and scalp DHT inhibition levels, we don't have access to the same amount of information revealing how much DHT is reduced in different organs in individuals. If you notice I only have made mention of the documentation of DHT inhibition, at no point did I ever tell you that there are not studies about the repercussions of inhibiting DHT or its relevancy in organs, which means that your post is not related to the only thing I discussed - levels of DHT inhibition. I am indeed aware of the potential consequences, so I would never state that studies about them aren't available, however it's not enough to prevent me from using the drug and in my case further keep my hair.
 

Pigeon

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The reason why I quoted you in the first place was to state that not all DHT is inhibited and that other pathways can still be active, something that you were probably aware of but was worth it to be pointed out.

After that you commented that 70% of DHT is inhibited with Finasteride, and 90% with Duta. To which I answered that although we have data about serum and scalp DHT inhibition levels, we don't have access to the same amount of information revealing how much DHT is reduced in different organs in individuals. If you notice I only have made mention of the documentation of DHT inhibition, at no point did I ever tell you that there are not studies about the repercussions of inhibiting DHT or its relevancy in organs, which means that your post is not related to the only thing I discussed - levels of DHT inhibition. I am indeed aware of the potential consequences, so I would never state that studies about them aren't available, however it's not enough to prevent me from using the drug and in my case further keep my hair.
Lol, how is my post not related to DHT inhibition? Anyway, maybe you misunderstood. edit: Or do you mean how much DHT is exactly inhibited in certain tissues, organs by taking fina?

Also you are free to take what you want, as you say you're aware of the risks. Hope you keep having good results.
 
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Descending Dog

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You make it sound like taking Finasteride will stop people from getting bald which isn't the case, even for people who don't necessarily get negative side effects they can still go bald or loose more hair than prior to taking Finasteride.

If Finasteride was nearly as effective as pro-Finasteride people/studies (falsely) claim it to be, the majority of men would have good heads of hair, but just by looking around in daily life it can blatantly be seen that is the furthest thing from the truth.

It's actually as simple as that.

Also, I believe if those of us who still have hair left can sort of hold on until 2023 when Kintor Pharmaceuticals Pyrilutamide is released, I believe it could hold us for a good few more years until the next few good treatments in the pipeline are available.
It wasn't my intention to make it sound like Finasteride will stop everyone's hairloss. I am aware that both drugs could be ineffective or not effective enough in some individuals. I myself thought to be one of them, or didn't want to risk being one of them which is why I didn't even bother with Finasteride and only Avodart 2.5 is one of the components of my regime. And will keep using more stuff because I know it can fail anytime.

In the hypothetical scenario that I were to know that a drug is going to work the way that I expect to in 2 years and I have enough hair to feel comfortable with myself until then, then it's not unreasonable to wait. For sure this is not how my case.
Lol, how is my post not related to DHT inhibition? Anyway, maybe you misunderstood.

Also you are free to take what you want, as you say you're aware of the risks. Hope you keep having good results.
Because I was speculating about the possible percentage of DHT inhibition in different organs and tissues, not that the inhibition does not have any consequence which is something that I knew.

And yh thanks. I am not pro or against anything. I don't advocate anyone to do anything because at the end of the day anyone will have their own results and they have to weigh out everything.
 

JohnSmith21

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Does treatment with dutasteride or finasteride has impact on renal morphology? Experimental study​


Abstract​


Purpose: To investigate whether renal modifications occur following treatment with dutasteride or finasteride.

Methods: Twenty-four male rats were divided into three groups: control (that received distilled water), dutasteride (0.5 mg/kg/day), and finasteride (5 mg/kg/day) groups. All administrations were given by gavage for 40 consecutive days. After inducing euthanasia, blood was collected for urea and creatinine analyses, and both the kidneys were collected for stereological analyses of kidney morphology.

Results: Serum urea and creatinine levels were increased in both the finasteride and the dutasteride groups compared with those in the control group. In addition, kidney weight, kidney volume, cortical volume, glomerular volumetric density, and mean glomerular volume were reduced in both treatment groups. Finally, the number of glomeruli per kidney was reduced by 26.8% in the finasteride group and by 51.6% in the dutasteride group compared with that in the control group.

Conclusions: The 5-ARIs finasteride and dutasteride promoted morphological and functional damages in rat kidneys. In addition, rats in the dutasteride group showed more severe renal modifications than those in the finasteride group.

Bro enough I’ve been on for 3 years and have ZERO sides
 

Micky_007

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We have more and more data about that as well:

- 5-AR inhibition may result in the development of kidney dysfunction (R)

- Dutasteride, a 5-AR inhibitor, treatment increased activities of liver alanine aminotransferase and aspartate aminotransferase, suggesting dysregulation of liver metabolism (R).

- Inhibiting DHT synthesis impairs corpus cavernosum growth and trabecular smooth muscle relaxation, endothelial function and increases connective tissue deposition. This all contributes to erectile dysfunction, even in the presence of physiological levels of total testosterone (R)

- Low DHT or lowering DHT with a 5-AR inhibitor, such as finasteride or dutasteride, is associated with an increase in blood glucose and glycosylated hemoglobin A as well as the risk of type 2 diabetes (R, R, R).

- Androgens, especially DHT, upregulate insulin receptor expression and activity and increase glycogen synthesis and cholesterol uptake in the liver (R).

- DHT increases the synthesis of nitric oxide through eNOS phosphorylation thus improving circulation and vascularity (R).

- DHT promotes stress resiliency. Blocking 5-AR enhances cortisol release during stress, whereas DHT blunts it, most likely through CRH suppression (R, R).

- DHT promote spatial memory (R).

- ...

There are lot more studies but these are just some. I posted a ton scattered through this thread too.


Exactly and there have been several studies showing how bad this is. All @user394587 is looking at is the bought-off studies paid off By Big Pharma to fool people.

There are so many people on this very forum alone and every other hairloss forum that complains of sides that are often permanent. You even got people on websites like Hairlosscure2020, Follicle Thought, etc always in the comments section talking about how they had sides on Finasteride when the topic of initial conversation wasn't even about Finasteride. It is highly common. So common that you can not even go online and not here about people who haven't experienced side effects on Finasteride.

Even multiple dermatologists I went to said in their experience Finasteride users do quite often get sides but they don't like to tell patients about the side effects before prescribing it because they don't want to scare people away.

It's a business for even Dermatologists. Imagine you go to a dermatologist and they be straight honest with you for a change and tell you look:

" There's only 2 FDA approved treatments, Minoxidil rarely works unless accompanied by Microneedling but Microneedling is not FDA approved for Hairloss so I don't tell my patients to use it, and then we have Finasteride that blocks the 2nd most important hormone in males, can have a cascade effect on your hormones, cause you ED that could be permanent, low libido, low sperm count, depression, possibly never have kids, etc etc" - you would get almost NO one going to take the stuff prescribed from a Dermatologist especially the Finasteride.

However, hairloss is a business for Dermatologists and hair loss surgeons. There's a reason they will understate the sides, especially when hairloss patients make a large % of their salary.

That's also a big reason how it's so easy for Big Pharma to hit that 2 million annual prescriptions of Finasteride and why that number doesn't mean sh*t because most often dermatologists don't tell you the bad side of Finasteride in such detail as any sane person would be scared off.

Since there are tens of millions of Balding people every year in the US, and millions of those see a dermatologist soon after they notice hairloss, dermatologists almost as a reflex just downplay Finasteride sides and quickly prescribe finasteride to almost everyone experiencing hairloss. That's how they are so easily able to hit that 2 million prescriptions a year and that is why that number doesn't mean sh*t about the safety or efficacy.

Also, most people who get sides don't even report it, even to their dermatologists. They just stop use. They don't report it because:

1) Fear of embarrassmet as men
2) The complaint process to actually register their side effects as a statistic is far longer, tedious and inconvenient in comparison than those who simply can say they just responded positively or didn't have any sides and so don't even have to register their experience as a statistic.

Where these studies get it wrong also it they just take the number of prescriptions in the US for Finasteride which is 2 million and they only look at number of people who went through the whole tedious process of registering their negative side effects as a statistic. Most people don't even know how to go about doing that nor do they want to. Especially after getting sides all their looking for is a way to get their health back, not to mention how their probably too depressed which is another side of Finasteride to go through that whole lenghty process.

That is the reason these statistics of how many people actually got side effects are Farrrrrrr lower than what they actually should be.
 
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Pigeon

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Bro enough I’ve been on for 3 years and have ZERO sides
That's good for you friend but since we're talking about anecdotes now, let's see how many guys have sides on this forum:

Here's a poll from 2019, with 165 people. 53% experienced side effects.

g18BzfY.png



And this is on a hairloss forum where guys are desperate for fina to work and stop their hairloss.
 

Jacoby77

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We have more and more data about that as well:

- 5-AR inhibition may result in the development of kidney dysfunction (R)

- Dutasteride, a 5-AR inhibitor, treatment increased activities of liver alanine aminotransferase and aspartate aminotransferase, suggesting dysregulation of liver metabolism (R).

- Inhibiting DHT synthesis impairs corpus cavernosum growth and trabecular smooth muscle relaxation, endothelial function and increases connective tissue deposition. This all contributes to erectile dysfunction, even in the presence of physiological levels of total testosterone (R)

- Low DHT or lowering DHT with a 5-AR inhibitor, such as finasteride or dutasteride, is associated with an increase in blood glucose and glycosylated hemoglobin A as well as the risk of type 2 diabetes (R, R, R).

- Androgens, especially DHT, upregulate insulin receptor expression and activity and increase glycogen synthesis and cholesterol uptake in the liver (R).

- DHT increases the synthesis of nitric oxide through eNOS phosphorylation thus improving circulation and vascularity (R).

- DHT promotes stress resiliency. Blocking 5-AR enhances cortisol release during stress, whereas DHT blunts it, most likely through CRH suppression (R, R).

- DHT promote spatial memory (R).

- ...

There are lot more studies but these are just some. I posted a ton scattered through this thread too.
If finasteride is so bad, can you at least recommend another treatment that tackles the root cause? You clearly have written a lot about finasteride, so please, offer us people who haven't taken it yet a solution if it is THAT bad.

I just wish it wasn't so fear mongery but you probably are trying to help people.. I assume. If that is the case, my question remains. As a Diffuse thinner with time running out, what can I actually do?
 

goingMonky

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How about topical 'finasteride + minoxidil' solution? How much of that fina would go systematic and cause similar sides?
 

Solxama

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If finasteride is so bad, can you at least recommend another treatment that tackles the root cause? You clearly have written a lot about finasteride, so please, offer us people who haven't taken it yet a solution if it is THAT bad.

I just wish it wasn't so fear mongery but you probably are trying to help people.. I assume. If that is the case, my question remains. As a Diffuse thinner with time running out, what can I actually do?
I think @Pigeon is being a bit fear mongery, he might believe he's doing good and trying to help people so no offense, but I believe he and others like him are very biased against Finasteride and probably believe in a naturalist ideology, so being against any modification of the natural functioning of the body, especially hormone modifications, and that is what Fina does.

I know I might not be listened to, especially since I'm on a regimen most men would find extreme. I'm not cis tho so I don't care, but the point remains, I'm not here to praise Fina or to say it has no side effects. But I will say people like @Pigeon and others seem to overplay these side effects, that don't happen to most users of Fina. There are millions of men around the world on it for years with no sides.

I didn't come here to push any pro Fina agenda or anything, I was just lurking and decided to state my opinion so it might calm some people down, and not let fear mongering scare away desperate people who haven't yet tried the drug. Be aware of the potential sides, but try first. That's my philosophy.
 

user394587

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If finasteride is so bad, can you at least recommend another treatment that tackles the root cause? You clearly have written a lot about finasteride, so please, offer us people who haven't taken it yet a solution if it is THAT bad.

I just wish it wasn't so fear mongery but you probably are trying to help people.. I assume. If that is the case, my question remains. As a Diffuse thinner with time running out, what can I actually do?

You have these options if you want to tackle the root cause, which is androgens.

1. Oral finasteride
2. Oral dutasteride
3. Topical finasteride
4. Topical dutasteride
5. RU58841

I'm not even going to address the HRT related discussions here. In my opinion you have to be completely out of your mind to consider HRT to treat hairloss, unless your goal is literally to transition.

Oral finasteride: Is the most studied of all of these medications, though as has been mentioned the safety data is limited to some degree. If you read through this thread I'm sure you'll find what you need to know about it from all standpoints. It's a contentious topic, to say the least.

Oral dutasteride: Is the second most studied of these medications, but if you decide that finasteride is too much of a risk based on the information we have, then this is obviously not an option.

Topical Finasteride: Since finasteride has a molecular mass of 372.549 g/mol, it will end up going systemic if used topically because it is light enough to pass through the scalp tissue into the blood stream. In theory, it could be possible to develop a carrier solution that would localize the effect to the scalp. To my knowledge, this hasn't been done, and the scientific literature around topical finasteride isn't great. In theory, it will just take longer for topical finasteride to go systemic, so if you're prone to finasteride side effects you'll likely just delay their onset with topical finasteride.

Topical Dutasteride: The theory behind this is that because it has a molecular mass of 528.53 g/mol, it should be possible to localize the effect to the scalp tissue because the threshold to pass the scalp tissue into the blood stream is thought to be 500 g/mol. Unfortunately, topical dutasteride hasn't been studied (to my knowledge) in any form of properly designed study. All we have are anecdotes.

RU58841: This is a topical anti-androgen that competes at the androgen receptor with T and DHT. Its binding affinity is not as strong as DHT, so in cases of aggressive hair loss, I would doubt its efficacy. We don't have any safety data in humans, nor do we have data on long term efficacy. Similar to topical dutasteride, all we have are anecdotes. Out of these five options, this seems like the worst to me from a theoretical standpoint.

The most promising therapy on the horizon, in my opinion, is pyrilutamide. This has a lot of potential, but assuming that the clinical trials conclude on time, we're 2+ years away from this, so that doesn't really help you much if you have aggressive diffuse thinning.

You could address it from a growth agonist perspective by using topical minoxidil, tretinoin and microneedling. How long this maintains your hair depends on how aggressive your hair loss is and what your genetic balding pattern is. Broadly speaking, I don't think there is any scientific evidence to suggest you'd get anything more than 5 years out of it. That, and when or if you discontinue minoxidil, any of the gains you made on it would evaporate. You couldn't, for instance, use this combination and then switch to something like pyrilutamide in the future and maintain the benefits of minoxidil usage.
 
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