Equol

[Jacob]

The point I'm making is that if this stuff at least halts or slows down my loss, I am not going to be too concerned over 10 or 20 bucks either way...in the long run, sure, maybe, but its not like there is a huge difference in price...for a 6 month trial, it's all in the same ballpark for me

Ok..that's fine..but previously you said there was quite a difference in price. About $50 per 4 months. There was a major difference in price when Folexen was cheaper :doh: That's still assuming I did the calculations right.

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Is this s-equol or whatever it's called? It's also important that you guys understand that anything sold locally in Australia is expensive. The minimum 18+ year old wage in Aus is something like $15 an hour, on top of that you have Super contributions so it pushes it up even further.

I've emailed around to confirm what equol is being used. The ingredients on this page http://chiroevolution.com/prostizine.pdf say:

(R,S) Equol (patented & patent-pending) 6mg

But then under the "Study: Equol’s Other Positive Eects in the Body" they mention Phyto-600. A search for that talks about a soy-based feed or supplement etc. I'm assuming they're just using those studies for the "equol" benefits.

So it looks to be a mixture of both- R and S Equol. Will post if I get any responses. Maybe how much S-equol is in it..etc.

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Equol has recently caught the interest of many researchers due to its rich antioxidant activity and implications in cancer research [4,5]. The chemical structure of equol contains a stereocenter at carbon number 3 which gives it two possible enantiomers and it has since been proven that the production of equol by microflora in mammals or other animals is selective for the S - enantiomer only [5]. S-equol has unique chemical properties compared to its R - enantiomer. S-equol has been shown to have a modest affinity for binding to and mimicking estrogen's effects on estrogen beta receptors (ERβ) due to its similar structure to natural estrogens [5,7]. However, S-equol shows little affinity for estrogen alpha receptors (ERα). Furthermore, equol (i.e., the R- and/or S-isomer) can act as an anti-androgen [7]. Equol's anti-androgen activity is unique as equol does not bind the androgen receptor (AR) but specifically binds 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) with high affinity, and thereby prevents DHT from binding the AR [7], see Figure 1. This finding is reconfirmed and extended here. Additionally, equol's mechanism of action, namely, its ability to specifically bind 5α-DHT and prevent 5α-DHT's biological actions in physiological processes, was studied.

For example, it is known that prostate cancer cells are supported in their growth by androgen stimulation and the androgen-regulated expression of the prostate specific antigen (PSA) is a biological marker of such stimulation [8]. Logically, any treatment that could decrease PSA levels in prostate cancer cells, or antagonize specific androgen hormone action, would have great potential in addressing prostate disorders, such as benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) or prostate cancer. With this in mind, we sought, in the following experiments, to determine equol's effect on 5α-DHT levels in cultured human prostate cancer (LNCap) cells. We also examined equol's effect on both prostate weight and circulating hormone levels in vivo using Long-Evans rats. In brief, the present results demonstrate that equol: a) (R- and/or S-isomeric mixtures) has high binding affinity for 5α-DHT making it a potent selective androgen modulator (SAM), b) blocks the stimulatory androgen action of 5α-DHT in increasing prostate specific antigen (PSA) levels in human cancer (LNCap) cell cultures and, c) significantly decreases serum 5α-DHT and subsequently prostate weight without altering, testosterone, 17β-estradiol or LH levels. Applications for equol to improve prostate disorders and other androgen-mediated conditions is also discussed.

This is an example of equol preventing the stimulatory effects of 5α-DHT in vivo. Rats were injected with 1 mg of non-racemic equol (52% S-isomer, 48% R-isomer) for 25 consecutive days, and serum 5α-DHT levels and prostate weights were measured. Adult (50 day-old) males (n = 16), purchased from Charles River Laboratories (CRL; Wilmington, MA, USA), were caged individually and housed in the Brigham Young University Vivarium and maintained on an 11-dark, 13-hour light schedule (lights on 0600-1900). Before purchase, the male animals were fed a diet containing approximately 200 ppm of isoflavones at the supplier (CRL). At 50 days of age, upon arrival, the male rats were placed on a diet containing approximately 10 ppm of isoflavones; referred to hereafter as the low isoflavone diet (Zeigler Bros., Gardnes, PA, USA; Phytoestrogen Reduced Rodent Diet II). All animals remained on the low isoflavone diet until 216 days of age to exclude the influence of dietary isoflavones on the measured parameters. At 150 days of age the rats were divided into two groups (control or equol treatments) that were matched by age and body weight. Starting at 190 days of age the male rats received a daily subcutaneous 0.1cc injection at the nape of the neck of vehicle (n = 8) (dimethyl sulfoxide; DMSO) or equol (n = 8) at a dose of approximately 1.0 mg/kg for 25 consecutive days.
The body weights for each group were recorded weekly starting at 150 days of age before the treatments were initiated, with weights obtained immediately before and after the treatments were administered (there were no significant differences in body weights between the control and equol groups at the start of this experiment). At 216 days of age the animals were weighed [grams (g) ± 0.1 g], then anesthestized with Ketamine/acepromazine and blood was collected from the heart. Next the ventral prostate organ was dissected and weighed [milligrams (mg) ± 0.001 mg]. The collected blood samples were centrifuged and serum was stored at -20˚ C until assayed. All collection procedures were performed blind to the treatments. This animal protocol was approved by the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee at Brigham Young University.
Serum testosterone, 5α-DHT, and 17β-estradiol were quantified by radioimmunoassay (RIA) kits purchased from Diagnostic System Laboratories (Webster, TX, USA). Luteininzing hormone (LH) was quantified by an assay utilizing standards from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) USA pituitary hormone program. The samples were run in duplicate for each RIA, with internal control samples. In all RIAs, the control values were within normal ranges. The intra-assay coefficients of variance for the assays were: testosterone = 6.0%; for 5α-dihydrotestosterone = 8%, 17β-estradiol = 5% and LH = 9%.

http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/

 

[2020]

EquolSlim:
$70 for 60 x 4.5mg = 270 mg

Folexen:
$40 for 100 x 2.5mg = 250 mg


EquolSlim is obviously more expensive probably because they put a bunch of other stuff in instead of just selling pure equol

 

[Jacob]

2020..I shouldn't even bother if you're not going to bother reading. It's not $70. It's $50.32. Currently there's a 15% off coupon as well- brings it down to 42.77. Then add shipping. There is no shipping charge for the EquoSlim. Ok....?

 

[Sparky4444]

2020..I shouldn't even bother if you're not going to bother reading. It's not $70. It's $50.32. Currently there's a 15% off coupon as well- brings it down to 42.77. Then add shipping. There is no shipping charge for the EquoSlim. Ok....?

ok...then it's the same...big deal...Dude, I don't know why you're being so persistent about this...it's not a deal breaker....I personally don't want all that other crap...I don't want to take Saw Palmetto either...

 

[Jacob]

ok...then it's the same...big deal...Dude, I don't know why you're being so persistent about this...it's not a deal breaker....I personally don't want all that other crap...I don't want to take Saw Palmetto either...

Ah..it's seems you're the one being so persistent about it. Even after it's said that it's the other way around- that the Desbio products are cheaper(it's not "the same"..if you're referring to the price) than Folenex..you keep rationalizing your purchase. Even now going on to say you don't want to take Saw Palmetto. 1. There's not much SP in the product..and 2. their other product doesn't contain SP. Don't worry about it. You'll be using Equol- totally S-equol if the product is legit.

My response there was to 2020 btw..I was "persistent" only in having to correct someone yet again.

And on prices...as many ppl as possible should request it from places such as Swanson, who have their own label products. They are usually reasonably priced and sometimes much cheaper. Scroll down a bit for their request form: http://www.swansonvitamins.com/product.request.do

 

[JDW]

I'm with Jacob on this to be honest. I appreciate Folloxen answering questions but ffs people should be giving the third degree to something which is new on the market, unproven and at a pretty high price for what's essentially a suplement. Scepticism is good, it's not criticising for the sake of it but good to cast a critical eye.
Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but of course when posters who have only been on here one/two months and they're supporting a product then alarm bells start ringing...again 90% of time it's all genuine but over the 5/6 years longer term posters have been on here it's happened time and time again.

ANYWAY, we all want the same result from this so let's hope it's a decent product which gets the job done, prices come way down and we can all be happy.

 

[Conpecia]

Good find guys. Might try this over Folexen. Utah is much closer to me than Australia...

Can also use the SP hopefully. A little worried about green tea extract as I'm insanely sensitive to any caffeine.

 

[LawOfThelema]

A cheaper product would be good. Folexen purports to have only s-equol, where the others aren't specifying and thus likely contain a racemic mixture of s-equol/r-equol, but it seems both s and r-equol have a similar antiandrogen properity. S antagonizes estrogen receptor beta which is suspected to be part of it's health effects but I don't think that aspect is relevant to male pattern baldness sufferers.

 

[zeroes]

law can you clarify that we only want s or a mix of r and s is fine? I take it that pure s is more expensive than a combo of s and r?

 

[Jacob]

I already pointed out above that it's a combo(!), it does specify-see the ingreds list in the one(unless they tell me differently and explain why the R,S is in the ingreds list). And that's why I provided the quotes that talked a bit about both.

The Desbio products also mention patents(for the equol)..."University developed"- I'm waiting for responses on some of this- why both are included and if that's better- how much S is in there..etc.

Edit:

(R,S) Equol (patented & patent-pending) 6mg

Another edit: I noticed Folexen says that there's 2.5mg but are any other ingreds listed? Is the whole capsule just 2.5mg? For the powder they state "100 grams of powder, containing 0.5% S-equol" That doesn't sound like it's pure S-equol. For sure it's not pure equol...

Maybe someone can post a picture of the label here..

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And don't laugh at the "University developed": http://techtransfer.byu.edu/?products=equol-for-prostate-and-urinary-health

Notice it says

Patent Pending US, Issued in Australia

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Which of course brings you to http://www.ausiopharma.com/TechPages/TechOverview.html

Notice the US patents listed.

I guess if someone can confirm from them that Folexen is using their ingred(s)...although I suppose they could be getting 'em from someplace else.

 

[Aks20]

Another edit: I noticed Folexen says that there's 2.5mg but are any other ingreds listed? Is the whole capsule just 2.5mg? For the powder they state "100 grams of powder, containing 0.5% S-equol" That doesn't sound like it's pure S-equol. For sure it's not pure equol....

Starch. I asked in the thread about whether the powder in the capsules is the same as the powder sold separately - it is. And he mentioned the powder has starch as a filler re: using it as a topical.

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ok...then it's the same...big deal...Dude, I don't know why you're being so persistent about this...it's not a deal breaker....I personally don't want all that other crap...I don't want to take Saw Palmetto either...

Same here. Saw Palmetto is nothing but Propecia Lite. Basically it reduces DHT using the Five Alpha R reduction mechanism which is a problem. Same is true with a lot of stuff you see on that site hairloss research which collates all the hairloss relevant herbs.

I'd be very careful about all the herbs which inhibit DHT using Five Alpha R.

And DHT reduction to the tune of 70% like in Propecia? Well, thats just too much. So don;t megadose on these herbs

 

[lobsterlobster]

Yeah, after I quit finasteride, I took a hair growth supplement loaded with Saw Palmetto and the like, and it gave me terrible sides. Really took a toll on my sexual ability.

 

[Jacob]

Starch. I asked in the thread about whether the powder in the capsules is the same as the powder sold separately - it is. And he mentioned the powder has starch as a filler re: using it as a topical.

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Same here. Saw Palmetto is nothing but Propecia Lite. Basically it reduces DHT using the Five Alpha R reduction mechanism which is a problem. Same is true with a lot of stuff you see on that site hairloss research which collates all the hairloss relevant herbs.

I'd be very careful about all the herbs which inhibit DHT using Five Alpha R.

And DHT reduction to the tune of 70% like in Propecia? Well, thats just too much. So don;t megadose on these herbs

So is "starch" and "s-equol" the only two ingredients listed for the capsules? Or does it say something like "Equol- 2.5% S-equol"? If it is just plain S-equol, then it'll be interesting to see how the two products compare. If enough use them I guess.

Still haven't heard anything back..except Pureformulas said they'll be carrying the Prostizine in the near future. As I thought..I did a search at Iherb- most SP products and prostate combos contain much more SP and the sterols. 320mg of SP is the normal dosage.

I suppose you could rotate between the 2 Desbio products as well.

 

[Aks20]

I'm with Jacob on this to be honest. I appreciate Folloxen answering questions but ffs people should be giving the third degree to something which is new on the market, unproven and at a pretty high price for what's essentially a suplement. Scepticism is good, it's not criticising for the sake of it but good to cast a critical eye.
Not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but of course when posters who have only been on here one/two months and they're supporting a product then alarm bells start ringing...again 90% of time it's all genuine but over the 5/6 years longer term posters have been on here it's happened time and time again.

ANYWAY, we all want the same result from this so let's hope it's a decent product which gets the job done, prices come way down and we can all be happy.

The basic problem with expecting excellent results (Propecia level) from Equol etc is that we'd have to use it to block DHT to the level of 70%. IMO, thats just too much. Which is why a topical version could be more effective.

I wonder how much of any substance gets absorbed and goes systemic through the scalp if we use alcohol or DMSO? Any ideas?

If its 10-20%, then even if we use high levels of equol on the scalp, theoretically we should just get 10-20% of that in our bloodstream. Hair saved, no serious health issues..

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So is "starch" and "s-equol" the only two ingredients listed for the capsules? Or does it say something like "Equol- 2.5% S-equol"? If it is just plain S-equol, then it'll be interesting to see how the two products compare. If enough use them I guess.

Still haven't heard anything back..except Pureformulas said they'll be carrying the Prostizine in the near future. As I thought..I did a search at Iherb- most SP products and prostate combos contain much more SP and the sterols. 320mg of SP is the normal dosage.

I suppose you could rotate between the 2 Desbio products as well.

Replied in the other thread. Those other products you mention contain the full equol (I am guess both R&S rite, where R is a bit iffy) plus all those 5 Alpha herbs..I'd stay off them...

 

[Jacob]

Aks20 gave the answer in the Folexen thread:

The box is a plain a translucent one with just a sticker on it with a pic of some berries? and Folexen on it. No ingredients listed. Blue capsules inside.

Someone please tell me there was some literature or something that came with the product with the ingreds list on it....

Replied in the other thread. Those other products you mention contain the full equol (I am guess both R&S rite, where R is a bit iffy) plus all those 5 Alpha herbs..I'd stay off them...

Did you read where theirs is patented? University researched? Etc? "I'd stay off them...."..your response here:http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...atment-based-on-S-equol?p=1094328#post1094328 ...and you wonder why ppl get suspicious......?????????

I did say... too...that I'm waiting for responses on the R,S issue..etc.

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Three clinical studies using prototype topical gel and cream formulations of AUS-131 have been conducted to confirm its dermal safety and potential benefits. Preclinical studies reported in the literature support potential benefits due to the compound’s antiandrogen activity, antioxidant activity, its ability to induce collagen synthesis, and its ability to prevent sunburn-induced damage to the skin.

The three clinical studies conducted by Ausio included a human repeat insult patch test (HRIPT) to assess irritation and sensitization potential, an antiaging study, and an antiblemish study. The results from these studies demonstrate the safety of the topical formulation and potential use as an antiaging and antiblemish agen

http://www.ausiopharma.com/TechPages/Cosmetic.html

 

[2020]

The basic problem with expecting excellent results (Propecia level) from Equol etc is that we'd have to use it to block DHT to the level of 70%. IMO, thats just too much. Which is why a topical version could be more effective.

wrong.

70% reduction with finasteride is not the same as 70% reduction with equol. With finasteride, your body fights back by upregulating AR sites so that 30% becomes more potent over time. Equol won't have that problem so you wouldn't really need to block 70%. Castrates have more than 30% of their original DHT and they don't go bald.

 

[Sparky4444]

So what if we block 70% DHT and hair loss stops or even recovers a bit?? When we were younger and weren't losing our hair, DHT levels must have been reeeeeeally low --- we had our hair!! And there was nothing wrong health-wise when I was in my 20's, or in my teens, or when I was 6...

So bunk about being worried about lowering DHT...I want that **** neutralized...With that part of it under-control, topicals can undo the damage at the follicle and kickstart the system back to normal....in my case, if this works, I'm getting a hair transplant to fill-in my front and I'm getting my old hair back!

 

[LawOfThelema]

wrong.

70% reduction with finasteride is not the same as 70% reduction with equol. With finasteride, your body fights back by upregulating AR sites so that 30% becomes more potent over time. Equol won't have that problem so you wouldn't really need to block 70%. Castrates have more than 30% of their original DHT and they don't go bald.

Hey man, can you elaborate on the upregulation of AR sites? Where can I see more about that?

 

[2020]

Hey man, can you elaborate on the upregulation of AR sites? Where can I see more about that?

something to think about:

This is just a theory on why longtime finasteride users experience more sensitivity to DHT... The efficacy of DHT blockers rests on a very basic fallacy in the human body. Whatever its function, DHT IS a hormone and it is secreted to fulfill some preordained function in the body. Hormones can be replaced or supplemented; but they can't be suppressed in the long term. The body is a self-regulating machine that will eventually return to homeostasis, or equilibrium.

DHT, for whatever reason, is viewed as necessary by the body and produced in the appropriate amount. Block that production and you have not switched off DHT production, but only jacked the need for it way, way up—now twice, three times, X times as much as is needed to fulfill whatever role the body intended. This DOES happen with hormones. You can’t suppress thyroid hormone, for example, with drugs for this reason—hyperthyroidics frequently have the gland surgically or radiologically altered to serve this end.


Marty E. Sawaya, MD, PhD, ARATEC (Alopecia Research & Associated Technologies) Clinics & University of Miami School of Medicine, recently reported at the European Hair Research Society that “All scalp biopsies from patients obtained 6 months after finasteride treatment revealed intense upregulation of AR expression in comparison to pre-treatment biopsies of the same patient, whereas ERs were not affected, indicating that AR is very sensitive to the affects of 5a-R type II suppression of DHT” (“Androgen Responsive Genes As They Affect Hair Growth,”: His patients grew some new hair...but their 5-Alpha Reductase levels spiked dramatically.

http://www.ehrs.org/conferenceabstracts/2000marburg/guestlectures/s04-sawaya.htm

hyperandrogenecity is real.

Why do you think people suffer catch up loss from finasteride after 10 years. They go from Norwood 3 to nw6 in like 6 months.


Hyperandrogenecity, my friend.


it simply means your genes becomes hypersensitive to DHT when they are deprived from them.


In the case, above that is slowly built up over the years.


In some cases, though rare, you can lose your donor hair with propecia.

Propecia will actually become your worst enemy if you take it for a long time because your hair will become overly sensitive, all you do is built up something like a dam and after this dam gets cracks you are in serious trouble. Thats why this PDg2 or what its called is the far better thing because its working on deeper more important levels.

So in other words, all advise you got from clinics so far like


"Get a FUT done and use Propecia" will actually "kill" your head and hair some years from now on for sure.


Oh and btw if your hair becomes overly sensitive you have another problem, because stuff like Histogen wont work that good on your head anymore, because of the overly excessive and sensitive follicles, because its one thing to switch of hair loss which occurs on a consistent scale or try to get your follicles back to normal at the point where they become overly sensitive.


When they become overly sensitive you have a big big problem, because also your donor hair is affected and can become unstable. For example


Histogen will boost your hair and will turn back the clock over and over again. This works for the follicle and it simply cant become overly sensitive because of the erase effect. Propecia on the other hand just builds up tension and once it cracks the shi* is all over your place.


As everyone sees, no the fact that they didnt have good sophisticated Propecia or FUT/FUE studies this whole thing comes down like a boomerang to haunt you, i know its not a place here but Gho did actually study his HST with some studies published.


Right now i feel sorry for all transplanted patients and patients who got transplantes and are on Propecia you guys have been screwed over big time.

funny thing, ever since I quit finasteride, my body hair increased by a lot meaning that AR was definitely upregulated while I was on it. I hope sensitivity will return to normal with time...


This is why we need stuff like equol which emulates your body's own natural androgen binding proteins!

 

[Sparky4444]

This is why we need stuff like equol which emulates your body's own natural androgen binding proteins!

...I think the main question is just how much Equol will be effective -- and seeing how expensive it is, this will be where a lot of us will be at a crossroads...
...
...My instinct tells me that 20mg/day minimum will be needed to halt...that runs it at near $100/month...ouch...