Equol: A Natural Dht Binder And The Primary Ingredient In Brotzu

dermrafok

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Jesus oh f***. Maybe I dont want R-equol either! lol.

This is why I love my beloved daro. Virtually none crosses the blood-brain barrier so at the tiny topical doses I'm using I don't think I have to worry too much about these crazy brain effects of other broader acting drugs.

The caveat to what you're posting is to still keep in mind we know there are people born with 5 alpha reductase deficiencies and they do not develop any major cognitive problems that I'm aware of. Now one may argue that developing with exposure to 5-ar and then losing it later in life is different from never having 5-ar at all.

But it is still at least somewhar reassuring that those completely deficient in 5-ar aren't developing dementia in their 30s or anything scary like that.
I think IMHO that alternatives to Finasteride are needed in the market as quickly as possible.
 

abcdefg

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I think IMHO that alternatives to Finasteride are needed in the market as quickly as possible.

Right. If R-equol met all the requirements for a chemical replacement for finasteride then great, but the list is long. Is it stable over time? Cost? Difficulty to manufacture? If we had a reliable good supply easily available in the US then sure im all for it, but it cant cost 10X of finasteride or it will always remain a very underground small scale operation, and it will never get the benefits and evidence large scale treatments get
 

dermrafok

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Right. If R-equol met all the requirements for a chemical replacement for finasteride then great, but the list is long. Is it stable over time? Cost? Difficulty to manufacture? If we had a reliable good supply easily available in the US then sure im all for it, but it cant cost 10X of finasteride or it will always remain a very underground small scale operation, and it will never get the benefits and evidence large scale treatments get
It is a matter of public health and more.
 

Georgie

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Came across this randomly whilst googling estrogen receptor stuff.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8668914

Some old patent for an equol product. Wonder what happened to it.

“The invention claimed is:
1. A method of mediating androgen hormone action so as to ameliorate at least one condition of the skin or hair of a subject, comprising
administering a non-racemic mixture of R- and S-equol,
wherein R-equol binds free 5α-dihydrotestosterone and inhibits its binding with androgen receptor, and
wherein at the least one condition of the skin and hair is selected from the group consisting of:
a) inducing increased skin integrity by cell renewal;
b) enhancing water content or moisture of skin;
c) enhancing glycoaminoglycans and hyaluronic acid for improved skin radiance;
d) reducing trans epidermal water loss, skin flaking and scaling;
e) invigorating for energetically healthy skin;
f) improving skin thickness and enhanced cellular durability;
g) strengthening skin collagen and improving skin health;
h) enhancing skin tensile properties and improving the protective nature of the skin;
i) increasing elastin production and improving skin elasticity;
j) protecting against and inhibiting elastase;
k) protecting against and inhibiting collagenase;
I) protecting against and decreasing matrix metalloproteinases;
m) improving skin texture and tone;
n) reducing skin pores size and enhancing skin smoothness;
o) rejuvenating and renewing skin;
p) improving the appearance of scars and skin abrasions and enhancing skin repair and wound healing;
q) decreasing oily skin by minimizing sebaceous gland secretion and improving sebaceous gland function;
r) enhancing hair pigmentation;
s) increasing blood flow in the skin;
t) improving skin temperature and thermoregulation of the skin;
u) inhibiting fibroblast cell apoptosis;
v) stabilizing skin color changes and hair pigmentation and enhancing skin lightening;
w) treating, ameliorating and protecting against hyperpigmentation, age-spots and photo-aging;
x) decreasing or eliminating acne;
y) decreasing scalp hair loss or enhancing the retention of scalp hair (in male and female pattern baldness);
z) retarding facial and body hair growth, decreasing facial and body hair growth, and reducing hirsutism;
aa)reducing vaginal dryness; and
bb)attenuating skin and hair abnormalities in steroid hormone synthesis and function and metabolism of steroids and binding steroid receptors involving androgenic and/or estrogenic effects.
 

Arrade

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I have done some more reading and research on the subject of which version (R, S, or racemic) of equol would be most ideal for treatment of hair loss, and come up with some fascinating results.

The primary reason Brotzu is using S-equol is almost certainly the same reason they are using DGLA instead of PGE1. S-equol is a completely natural dietary product. So is DGLA. By using these "natural dietary products", they completely escape any significant regulation, and get to release their product as a "natural health product". This saves an enormous amount of money on testing for safety or efficacy.

But if we want to look at the question of what is truly best on a deeper level than that, we need to review the evidence again.

First of all, we should review again that in the rat prostate study comparing all three, only R-equol led to a significant decrease in prostate size. S-equol did not cause any significant change in prostate size.

We also have a very good skin study (ref) comparing all three which showed again that for skin purposes, R-equol was much more potent in almost every way. This included the following effects, of which one in particular was an absolute shock to me when I saw it, and likely completely explains the difference in prostate activity of both equol forms:
  • Overall, 16 genes were more powerfully regulated by R-equol, while only 3 genes were more powerfully regulated by S-equol.
  • Genes for collagen production, elastin production, and production of a skin breakdown inhibitor were all much more strongly activated by R-equol than S-equol.
  • Genes for three proteinases which break down skin during age were significantly more inhibited by R-equol compared with S-equol.
  • The gene for making the 5-alpha reductase (type 1) enzyme was significantly inhibited by R-equol, but not S-equol.
This finding of R-equol decreasing 5-AR (type 1) expression is mindblowing to me, because we have no other agent that I am aware of that does this, and it completely explains how equol is so good at controlling prostate problems. Given that both R-equol and S-equol bind equally to DHT, if the DHT binding effect was the primary mechanism of action, we would expect both forms to be effective at reducing prostate size. However, only R-equol has been shown to have a significant effect on prostate size.

The fact that R-equol has this unique ability, and that R-equol, not S-equol, is the type of equol proven to reduce prostate volume suggests that: this is likely a big portion of the mechanism of action by which equol works (though not everything), and just like with prostates, we should expect S-equol to be much less effective for hair.

We can get some clues as to how important this 5-AR effect is from the human prostate study, where men were treated with a mix of R/S-equol. In the men with the largest prostates, a significant decrease in DHT levels was observed. But notably, no decrease in DHT was seen in most men overall, despite their prostate symptoms improving. This suggests that the mechanism of action for equol overall in this study was probably a combination of the DHT binding effect (which does not change hormone levels) and the decrease in 5-AR expression (which does change hormone levels).

This represents a completely new mechanism of action, which I will add to my original post.

For reference, here is a table of some skin genes affected by S-equol, R-equol, and racemic equol and their differing effects:

View attachment 84178

This makes R-equol actually very similar to finasteride/dutasteride in effect, but it is slightly unique compared to both. There are three types of 5-alpha reductase enzymes which convert testosterone into DHT - type 1, 2 and 3. Finasteride works by blocking 5-alpha reductase (type 2&3) from converting testosterone to DHT. Dutasteride works by blocking all three types of 5-AR.

R-equol accomplishes essentially the same thing by decreasing the amount of 5-alpha reductase (type 1) enzyme that is made in the tissues exposed to it. With less enzyme, less DHT will be made in the same fashion. We don't know if R-equol also reduces expression of 5-AR type 2 or 3 as well, as they weren't studied. Either way, this provides a very plausible mechanism for high effectiveness in stopping hair loss if racemic equol is used topically.

Unfortunately, this also suggests that people who have been sensitive to DHT-related (finasteride/dutasteride) side effects might be sensitive to the same side effects from R-equol if it goes systemic to any significant extent. Some people have claimed decreased finasteride side effects from topical administration. So perhaps the effect of equol could be similarly localized.

Equol has so many mechanisms of action that are completely unique. This is yet another and probably the most important (along with the DHT binding capacity). But it also goes to show, there is nothing for free in this world. Dealing with the androgen problem of male pattern baldness will always be a compromise regardless of how you choose to attack it. I think it's a matter of finding the approach that best suits each individual, and that unfortunately can usually only be determined through trial and error.

Overall I think this very clearly shows that racemic equol will be far more powerful for hair loss than S-equol (what is being used in Brotzu). If Brotzu is proven to work, it might represent a "cleaner" mechanism of action, as S-equol will work only by binding DHT and stimulating ER-beta to reduce androgen receptors.

However, whatever benefit S-equol (Brotzu) might provide, racemic equol will undoubtedly provide a dramatically more potent effect in the treatment of male pattern baldness, due to its ability to reduce expression of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme.
Bruh is that why asian people live forever? They don't age because of equol production
 

Arrade

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Jesus oh f***. Maybe I dont want R-equol either! lol.

This is why I love my beloved daro. Virtually none crosses the blood-brain barrier so at the tiny topical doses I'm using I don't think I have to worry too much about these crazy brain effects of other broader acting drugs.

The caveat to what you're posting is to still keep in mind we know there are people born with 5 alpha reductase deficiencies and they do not develop any major cognitive problems that I'm aware of. Now one may argue that developing with exposure to 5-ar and then losing it later in life is different from never having 5-ar at all.

But it is still at least somewhat reassuring that those completely deficient in 5-ar aren't developing dementia in their 30s or anything scary like that.
Yeah, plus you have to think the biology of rats and their brains are not nearly as complex and developed. I don't think these side effects seen in rodents is as potent in humans, but this is a very good display of the risks inherent.
Very scared to try finasteride
 

Arrade

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So S-equol is still the superior soy isoflavone.
"retarding facial and body hair growth, decreasing facial and body hair growth, and reducing hirsutism"
I wonder if this has to do with S-equol DHT binding or more the loss of the 5ar-reductase enzyme when you add R-equol.
@beps63 stated that the Brotzu lotion will not inhibit beard growth, but I did not understand if he was talking about the liposome holding the lotion in the scalp or the fact that the body will not lack the ability to produce DHT (most likely both).

In addition, do not forget that Wuwei had hair regrowth results (substantial) with liposomes and S-equol.
Here is two sites I sourced that I believe sell S-equol at 98% purity
https://www.caymanchem.com/product/10010173#
https://www.medchemexpress.com/_-_-_S_-Equol.html

About $100 for 10 mg
@IdealForehead
@whatevr
I haven't looked into Seti and Fevi, but with people willing to blow money like that why not try S-equol in ethanol at the least
 

Arrade

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Interesting.

The aromatase enzyme catalyzes the conversion of androgens to estrogens in many human tissues. Estrogens are known to stimulate cellular proliferation associated with certain cancers and protect against adverse symptoms during the peri- and postmenopausal intervals. Phytoestrogens are a group of plant derived naturally occurring compounds that have chemical structures similar to estrogen. Since phytoestrogens are known to be constituents of animal/human food sources, these compounds have received increased research attention. Phytoestrogens may contribute to decreased cancer risk by the inhibition of aromatase enzyme activity and CYP19 gene expression in human tissues. This review covers (a) the aromatase enzyme (historical descriptions on function, activity, and gene characteristics), (b) phytoestrogens in their classifications and applications to human health, and (c) a chronological coverage of aromatase activity modulated by phytoestrogens from the early 1980s to 2015. In general, phytoestrogens act as aromatase inhibitors by (a) decreasing aromatase gene expression, (b) inhibiting the aromatase enzyme itself, or (c) in some cases acting at both levels of regulation.

In the late 1990s, premenopausal women were fed soy isoflavones for approximately 100 days and urine samples were collected to quantify estrogen excretion levels [75]. This last study demonstrated that soy isoflavone consumption may exert cancer-preventive effects by decreasing estrogen synthesis presumably by altering aromatase enzyme activity based upon previously published reports [75]. Finally several synthetic flavones were found to inhibit the aromatization of androstenedione to estrone using human placental micro- somes

Investigators using MCF-7 cells showed that mam- malian lignans (enterolactone and enterodiol) and genistein decreased aromatase enzyme activity
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.781.8210&rep=rep1&type=pdf
That's weird. Basically a biosynthesized estrogen keeps the body from producing estradiol endogenously?
I've actually used aromasin and letrozole, two of the commonly used artificial aromatase inhibitors in breast cancer patients. To think a soy estrogen would also remove that enzyme... too lazy to get further into this but seems like a healthier way to reduce estrogen, without being steroidal like aromasin
 

IdealForehead

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So S-equol is still the superior soy isoflavone.
"retarding facial and body hair growth, decreasing facial and body hair growth, and reducing hirsutism"
I wonder if this has to do with S-equol DHT binding or more the loss of the 5ar-reductase enzyme when you add R-equol.
@beps63 stated that the Brotzu lotion will not inhibit beard growth, but I did not understand if he was talking about the liposome holding the lotion in the scalp or the fact that the body will not lack the ability to produce DHT (most likely both).

In addition, do not forget that Wuwei had hair regrowth results (substantial) with liposomes and S-equol.
Here is two sites I sourced that I believe sell S-equol at 98% purity
https://www.caymanchem.com/product/10010173#
https://www.medchemexpress.com/_-_-_S_-Equol.html

About $100 for 10 mg
@IdealForehead
@whatevr
I haven't looked into Seti and Fevi, but with people willing to blow money like that why not try S-equol in ethanol at the least

Those prices are insane. You can't buy chemicals from places like Cayman Chem or Sigma. Look at their minoxidil prices. To make a DIY minoxidil would cost you crazy amounts of money. These companies sell high purity chemicals for research purposes, not bulk chemicals for bulk use.

It would be more cost effective to get some Chinese equol and have a lab to perform a chiral separation, but I have no interest in taking on that headache at this point. I plan to try the racemic equol when I receive it. Maybe in the future I'll look into purifying some s-equol to compare.

I hope most will stay in my scalp, and I take comfort in knowing millions of men have taken 5-AR's at this point for decades without any dramatic problems for the majority. As well as the fact that those completely deficient in 5-AR seem to do okay besides the lack of puberty.
 

fuDHTck

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Good post but I wouldn't jump on the conclusion of R-Equol working better than S-Equol for hair, that's just impossible to tell without proper testing and considering the little amount of research done comparing both.
 

Arrade

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Those prices are insane. You can't buy chemicals from places like Cayman Chem or Sigma. Look at their minoxidil prices. To make a DIY minoxidil would cost you crazy amounts of money. These companies sell high purity chemicals for research purposes, not bulk chemicals for bulk use.

It would be more cost effective to get some Chinese equol and have a lab to perform a chiral separation, but I have no interest in taking on that headache at this point. I plan to try the racemic equol when I receive it. Maybe in the future I'll look into purifying some s-equol to compare.

I hope most will stay in my scalp, and I take comfort in knowing millions of men have taken 5-AR's at this point for decades without any dramatic problems for the majority. As well as the fact that those completely deficient in 5-AR seem to do okay besides the lack of puberty.
No one takes the time to source S-equol even though it's like finasteride + estradiol but side effect free :confused:
I just care wayyy too much about my health especially mental function and the positive effect of androgens in men too mess with my 5-AR
I forgot what type 1 does and racemic may barely have any negative effect topically, will tune in for your results
 

couldntthinkofaname

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do you have to take this topical?




btw which kind of bacterias are responsible in the gut for this? cant u just supplement them and eat a lot of well..soy?
 

couldntthinkofaname

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Yes. Frankly it makes more sense topically too

why? it just seems to have positive effects?

will it get destroyed if you take it orally?

theoretically and leaving the price factor away...
 

Arrade

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why? it just seems to have positive effects?

will it get destroyed if you take it orally?

theoretically and leaving the price factor away...
I think it's far less effective systemically. The only effects you want are in the scalp.
There was a company called Feloxen (?) which used oral S-equol to weak effect. You're basically diluting the dose into the whole body

You don't want to ruin your internal hormones, just fix the actions in the scalp
 

couldntthinkofaname

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I think it's far less effective systemically. The only effects you want are in the scalp.
There was a company called Feloxen (?) which used oral S-equol to weak effect. You're basically diluting the dose into the whole body

You don't want to ruin your internal hormones, just fix the actions in the scalp


wrong

look at this picture

what do you see?

BN-VS809_2KHxn_OR_20171023082219.jpg



some people maybe would say they see the leader of japan and china shaking hands but do you know what i see?

i see two people who eat soy allday long everyday...with gutflora that can be named as a equol factory
 

IdealForehead

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wrong

look at this picture

what do you see?

View attachment 84740


some people maybe would say they see the leader of japan and china shaking hands but do you know what i see?

i see two people who eat soy allday long everyday...with gutflora that can be named as a equol factory

Personally I'd prefer to use it topically. Any that goes systemic should give some benefits. But there are supplements you can take both in terms of getting the right gut bacteria and feeding them the right precursors. Soy diet and gut bacteria will give you 20-25 mg max of s-equol through your body a day.

I intend to apply 30 mg equol to my scalp daily for a more focussed effect.
 

couldntthinkofaname

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Personally I'd prefer to use it topically. Any that goes systemic should give some benefits. But there are supplements you can take both in terms of getting the right gut bacteria and feeding them the right precursors. Soy diet and gut bacteria will give you 20-25 mg max of s-equol through your body a day.

I intend to apply 30 mg equol to my scalp daily for a more focussed effect.

what are the right gut bacterias for equol production tho? do we know this?
 
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