Does minoxidil lose the effectiveness in long-time use?

[hairhoper]

Obviously Proctor claims Proxiphen is better than Rogaine, it's his product and he charges 5 times as much for it. The fact he's a doctor doesn't mean sh*t when he has a vested interest in selling his own product.

**Edited cos it was a bit strong but I think Bryan is dangerously close to shilling constantly plugging Proctor's dubious claims. :thumbdown2:

 

[HT55]

Obviously Proctor claims Proxiphen is better than Rogaine, it's his product and he charges 5 times as much for it. The fact he's a doctor doesn't mean sh*t when he has a vested interest in selling his own product.

**Edited cos it was a bit strong but I think Bryan is dangerously close to shilling constantly plugging Proctor's dubious claims. :thumbdown2:

It's even more ridiculus than that, Proctor ( Bryan) says Proxyphen is UNQUESTIONABLY more effective than PROPECIA !

Proxyphen costs about 15 times as much as generic minoxidil and Proxyphen has minoxidil in it

 

[HT55]

Hey man, can i see your before and after pics? As you know I'm trying to find some new treatments. I got cardiovascular side effects from finasteride and liquid minoxidil, but I'm thinking about giving the foam a shot with a diuretic to lessen side effects, I would like to see your results, my email is c_h23@ymail.com Thank you!

http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc340/mikeb5555/

Last photo was taken 16 months ago, top is fuller, hairline is softer and crown doesn't show any scalp

I'll try to get a new photo up in the spring as I want to use the same camera, lighting , etc and it's a 3 hour R/T including time spent at the office. Also I feel kind of weird asking SMG to take photos when they know I am not going to have surgery done in the near future

 

[Bukowski]

HT55, great results there, congrats!

 

[Nene]

HT55, great results. Best thing is you have lots of donor left if you need more work. However, that might not happen until you're 50 and at that point you might not even care. At what age did you start losing hair? I'd love to have as much hair as you do at 41.

 

[HT55]

HT55, great results. Best thing is you have lots of donor left if you need more work. However, that might not happen until you're 50 and at that point you might not even care. At what age did you start losing hair? I'd love to have as much hair as you do at 41.

I started losing hair age age 23 (42 next month) and I had my first 500 graft procedure at age 31. Dr Shapiro thinks they may have been double folicular units but in any case I had another 500 graft procedure done the next year, Knowing what I do now those should have been done in one shot.


I wish I took a photo before I switched from liquid Rogaine foam as that first photo is after I had been using it for a month or two (maybe even 3 or 4 when I think about it) and was SHOCKED when I saw how much hair I had regrown when Matt showed me the pictures he took, I know I grew some before that photo was taken from the foam so the result was even more dramatic.

I guess the crazy thing is 4 years later my hair is still getting bettter. Again the changed I made after being on Propecia (1997) and Rogaine liquid (1994) was to add .25 mg finasteride as I was cutting up proscar, nizoral 2% 3 times a week and rogaine foam all over my head twice a day so 2 cans a month on the foam.

Now you see why I get so pissed when Bryan tells people Prox N or even Proxiphen is better than Rogaine Foam. I have the proof, he has nothing

 

[armandein]

Hey man, can i see your before and after pics? As you know I'm trying to find some new treatments. I got cardiovascular side effects from finasteride and liquid minoxidil, but I'm thinking about giving the foam a shot with a diuretic to lessen side effects, I would like to see your results, my email is c_h23@ymail.com Thank you!

http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc340/mikeb5555/

Last photo was taken 16 months ago, top is fuller, hairline is softer and crown doesn't show any scalp

I'll try to get a new photo up in the spring as I want to use the same camera, lighting , etc and it's a 3 hour R/T including time spent at the office. Also I feel kind of weird asking SMG to take photos when they know I am not going to have surgery done in the near future

Good work, congrats

 

[WarLord]

If you're lucky enough to tolerate both finasteride and minoxidil, then the big 3 will most definitely be enough to maintain your hair... only after 10-15years would you maybe need to consider adding other treatments to your regimen.

minoxidil is effective for roughly 5years, minoxidil + finasteride will be effective for 10-15years in most cases...

Just wondering whose *** you are pulling those numbers out of as they are pure speculation

They most probably present their personal "opinions" based on pieces of experience that they see on this and similar forums - the experience of screaming, desperate guys, who don't react well to medications. Sometimes I tell myself that I should stop visiting these forums, because reading the crap here only makes me paranoid and depressive. For Goodness sake, I have been on minoxidil since 1997, and I still have kept my Norwood 2.5 hairline! And until 2008, when I switched to 5% Kirkland (mainly from financial reasons), I used only the 2% version! That has been 15,5 years! Recently, I met a guy, who has been on 2% minoxidil since early 90's! I seriously doubt that we would be rare anomalies.

Not a long time ago, I saw nice graphs depicting how both finasteride and minoxidil lose their effectiveness after 5 years of treatment. Wow, now we have a new study of Rossi et al. showing that finasteride is still efective after 10 years, and in 21% patients, its efficiacy still has been increasing with the length of the cure!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21910805
So where did the previous researchers make a mistake?

Minoxidil turned out to be less effective than finasteride in studies, sure, but it was 5% minoxidil. Therefore, it doesn't mean that minoxidil is less effective than finasteride. It only means that the 5% version is still sub-optimal. And don't tell me that "it doesn't address the underlying cause of baldness" or similar rubbish. It works in a non-hormonal way, but it doesn't mean that it works less.

So, I would be glad, if all the self-proclaimed experts went to hell with their numbers, studies, graphs and other dubious mythologies, and didn't plunge people into depression. I repeat again: Considering that the 5% minoxidil version is generally weaker than finasteride, it is understandable that the number of screaming unfortunates having unsuccessfully used minoxidil will be higher than in finasteride. These people disproportionately gather on internet forums, which makes an impression that their experience is universal.

Furthermore, there is another important factor: It is much easier to take a pill than to apply something on your head regularly for many years. I myself started to flunk my everyday's treatment after several years, but fortunately, I am sufficiently paranoid and hence I quickly returned to my regular regimen, after I felt that I was losing hair. I also noticed that the regimen of many guys is chaotic. They interrupt it from time to time, use different stuffs, or even come with such silly theories that you must preventively stop the treatment for some time, or your body will adapt to it LOL No wonder that such geniuses lose hair. I must also add that there may be a huge difference, when you start the treatment immediately after you observe first signs of male pattern baldness (as I did), and when you start the treatment in the stage of Norwood 3 or even Norwood 5.

Frankly, it would never occur to me that minoxidil should ever stop working. The 2% version produced no regrowth, but stabilized it. And when I switched to 5%Kirkland, I regrew few thin hairs during the initial months, which suggested that 5% minoxidil in 2008 worked noticeably better than 2% minoxidil in 1997. No significant loss of efficiacy over 11 years, apparently. But after visiting internet forums I already became so paranoid that I mix my 5% Kirkland with the 15% EssenGen version to make a 6% concentration. To have better sleep.

 

[Bryan]

Minoxidil turned out to be less effective than finasteride in studies, sure, but it was 5% minoxidil. Therefore, it doesn't mean that minoxidil is less effective than finasteride. It only means that the 5% version is still sub-optimal. And don't tell me that "it doesn't address the underlying cause of baldness" or similar rubbish. It works in a non-hormonal way, but it doesn't mean that it works less.

So how do you explain the gradual decline in results (both hair counts and hair weight) in long-term topical minoxidil studies? That decline almost ALWAYS happens! In my view, the explanation is simple and obvious: topical minoxidil (when used all by itself) doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process. It stimulates a little regrowth, but doesn't inhibit balding. How do you explain that? :dunno:

 

[Northman]

Warlord do you happen to have a full article link to that abstract? I'd like to read the full results?

Note: Looked, seems everything is behind a pay wall.

 

[WarLord]

Minoxidil turned out to be less effective than finasteride in studies, sure, but it was 5% minoxidil. Therefore, it doesn't mean that minoxidil is less effective than finasteride. It only means that the 5% version is still sub-optimal. And don't tell me that "it doesn't address the underlying cause of baldness" or similar rubbish. It works in a non-hormonal way, but it doesn't mean that it works less.

So how do you explain the gradual decline in results (both hair counts and hair weight) in long-term topical minoxidil studies? That decline almost ALWAYS happens! In my view, the explanation is simple and obvious: topical minoxidil (when used all by itself) doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process. It stimulates a little regrowth, but doesn't inhibit balding. How do you explain that? :dunno:

See what I said above: We also had studies of finasteride lasting 5 years, in which the studied men began to lose regrown hair after 2 years. And suddenly - we have a study lasting 10 years that tells something very different! There is something fishy in the air, what do you think?

The "long-term" (i.e. 5-years') studies of minoxidil were not much different. Furthermore, you should take into consideration that even in the case of minoxidil, the loss concerned REGROWN hair - in people, who were mostly in a very advanced state of baldness before the treatment. But they haven't reached their baseline level even after 5 years. What would happen later? Are there any studies done in people with the early stage of male pattern baldness that would investigate any long-term effect on the keeping of hair? Oh, no! Curiously, the 2% minoxidil produced no hair regrowth in me, only invisible fuzz, but I still kept hair for 11 years!

To say that "topical minoxidil (when used all by itself) doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process" - when the studies show that 5% minoxidil is only a bit weaker than finasteride - is really bold. When it doesn't interfere with it, how is it possible that people regrow lost hair on it? When it doesn't interfere, how is it possible that I have been on minoxidil for 15,5 years - and you can find other people in the internet, who have used for 10+ years.?

Look at the average posters on hairloss forums: They use finasteride/dutasteride, Nizoral, 15% minoxidil + a lot of other compounds with little or zero effect, and many of these guys are still yelling that they are losing hair! Can they represent the average user of anti-hairloss products? Of course they can't. Since there is always a continuum of effect, they belong to the group of people, in which these products are barely effective and lose efficiacy within a very short time. These people then look for help at internet forums and their experience is taken as universal. "Finasteride loses its efficiacy after 5 years", "minoxidil loses its efficiacy after 5 years" - oh, pardon, Joe785 just posted yesterday that it had lost efficiacy in him after three years, so we must lower this number by at least 1 year etc.

 

[WarLord]

Warlord do you happen to have a full article link to that abstract? I'd like to read the full results?

Note: Looked, seems everything is behind a pay wall.

No, I don't have access to it. But I will have the study soon.

 

[Bryan]

So how do you explain the gradual decline in results (both hair counts and hair weight) in long-term topical minoxidil studies? That decline almost ALWAYS happens! In my view, the explanation is simple and obvious: topical minoxidil (when used all by itself) doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process. It stimulates a little regrowth, but doesn't inhibit balding. How do you explain that? :dunno:

See what I said above: We also had studies of finasteride lasting 5 years, in which the studied men began to lose regrown hair after 2 years. And suddenly - we have a study lasting 10 years that tells something very different! There is something fishy in the air, what do you think?

The "long-term" (i.e. 5-years') studies of minoxidil were not much different. Furthermore, you should take into consideration that even in the case of minoxidil, the loss concerned REGROWN hair - in people, who were mostly in a very advanced state of baldness before the treatment. But they haven't reached their baseline level even after 5 years. What would happen later? Are there any studies done in people with the early stage of male pattern baldness that would investigate any long-term effect on the keeping of hair? Oh, no! Curiously, the 2% minoxidil produced no hair regrowth in me, only invisible fuzz, but I still kept hair for 11 years!

I'm not sure what your two paragraphs above are supposed to mean.

To say that "topical minoxidil (when used all by itself) doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process" - when the studies show that 5% minoxidil is only a bit weaker than finasteride - is really bold. When it doesn't interfere with it, how is it possible that people regrow lost hair on it? When it doesn't interfere, how is it possible that I have been on minoxidil for 15,5 years - and you can find other people in the internet, who have used for 10+ years.?

What I suppose you're asking here is this: if topical minoxidil doesn't interfere with balding, how is it even able to grow hair at all? Is THAT what you're asking? My answer is that minoxidil grows hair, but it's only a temporary phenomenon. Hair counts and weights continue to drop slowly, even when they are stimulated during the first few weeks or months. They will eventually drop below baseline, even if it takes a while for that to happen.

Hair grown while using finasteride will last longer, on average, because finasteride _does_ interfere with the fundamental balding process.

Look at the average posters on hairloss forums: They use finasteride/dutasteride, Nizoral, 15% minoxidil + a lot of other compounds with little or zero effect, and many of these guys are still yelling that they are losing hair! Can they represent the average user of anti-hairloss products? Of course they can't. Since there is always a continuum of effect, they belong to the group of people, in which these products are barely effective and lose efficiacy within a very short time. These people then look for help at internet forums and their experience is taken as universal. "Finasteride loses its efficiacy after 5 years", "minoxidil loses its efficiacy after 5 years" - oh, pardon, Joe785 just posted yesterday that it had lost efficiacy in him after three years, so we must lower this number by at least 1 year etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by your fourth and final paragraph above.

 

[majorsixth]

This is where is i consider Crazy Bryan to be an hypocrite. He will argue the point that minoxidil doesn't interfere with the balding process, even produce Price's studies. Yet despite others telling him their experiences he totally disregards their anecdotal accounts. Then he makes him self look a complete twat by saying PROXIPHEN is better then finasteride and minoxidil, even though there is absolutely no scientific evidence to show this to be true.


This fool really needs to get his act together :shakehead:

 

[WarLord]

If DHT were the fundamental factor, all castrated bald men would regrow all their hair back. According to information that I read, this doesn't happen. The problem is that DHT "puts hair stem cells into sleep", and you must wake them up by a potent growth stimulator - which is minoxidil.

As for the finasteride study of 118 Italian men, I found more detailed results: Over the 10-years' period, only 14% of the studied men lost their hair, 65% maintained it, and 21% further improved after 5 years. What does it mean? It means that guys, who spread the Greek mythos that "finasteride will stop working after 5 years", may represent only ca. 5% of all users. (Well, 5% of the unfortunate users.) Naturally, these people disproportionately congregate on internet forums when seeking for help, and here they meet many other guys with similar experience. No wonder that they conclude that their experience is universal, because all other frustrated guys just tell the same thing! Where are all the men, who have been improving on finasteride even after 5 or 10 years? Where are they? They just must flood all forums about hairloss with their joyful experiences! Well, they mostly don't go to internet forums, because they don't feel any reason to go there.

I would say that the roots of the mythology concerning minoxidil are very similar. Bryan would want to tell me that minoxidil has enough strength to wake up many hairs even after several years, yet according to some "study", after mere two additional years it suddenly isn't able to keep them in place, and the hairloss continues at the same rate like before. This is utterly absurd at first glance and I don't buy it.

I am sure that if there were any longitudinal study with minoxidil users, we would be very surprised as well. Before reading the finasteride study, I thought that I was an exceptionally good responder, but now I think that my experience may not be exceptional at all.

O.K., minoxidil turned out to be somewhat weaker than finasteride, which would explain the higher number of complaints, but it was 2% or 5% minoxidil. It would be really very interesting to compare the effectiveness of 10% or 15% minoxidil with finasteride. Furthermore, such a study would have to be divided into subgroups of well-responding and non-responding people - like the finasteride study - , without any deceptive averages, because there is another very important factor: The consistency of use, which is quite difficult in a topical solution. I am a very disciplined person, but I myself started to be sloppy in the everyday's use after some seven, eight years, because it worked so reliably. I would say that such an endurance can't be expected in the majority of the population.

I must say that I visit forums like this only very rarely, and now the main reason lay in my current effort to regrow 1 cm of my lost hairline in temples back. Usually, I leave such forums nervous and paranoid, being depressed by the load of frustrated comments that basically say that I should have been completely bald for 10 years already. This is also the reason, why I now try to increase my minoxidil concentrations slowly (to have better sleep), and I was looking for some experiences with the products of MinoxidilMax (DualGen, EssenGen). But so far it seems that this company has only 10 customers in the world - five of them revile them, the remaining five write positive posts.

 

[Bryan]

If DHT were the fundamental factor, all castrated bald men would regrow all their hair back. According to information that I read, this doesn't happen. The problem is that DHT "puts hair stem cells into sleep", and you must wake them up by a potent growth stimulator - which is minoxidil.

That's a completely separate issue, and I don't know why you even bother to bring it up. The reason that castrated men don't regrow their hair back is that human beings don't have much of a propensity to regrow hair that's been lost due to male pattern baldness. Stumptailed macaques have a much greater propensity to do it, but not humans. Finasteride and dutasteride won't do it (not completely, anyway), and neither will spironolactone or other antiandrogens. Castration won't do it, either.

[...]

I would say that the roots of the mythology concerning minoxidil are very similar. Bryan would want to tell me that minoxidil has enough strength to wake up many hairs even after several years, yet according to some "study", after mere two additional years it suddenly isn't able to keep them in place, and the hairloss continues at the same rate like before. This is utterly absurd at first glance and I don't buy it.

You don't have to "buy it", all you have to do is look at the results of long-term topical minoxidil studies, and you'll see that what I've been telling you is the truth. After the initial increase in haircounts and hairweights that you get when you first start using topical minoxidil (after the first few months), those counts and weights appear to start declining again, the same as they do in people on placebo. Why does that happen? It's OBVIOUS: minoxidil doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process.

[...]

O.K., minoxidil turned out to be somewhat weaker than finasteride, which would explain the higher number of complaints, but it was 2% or 5% minoxidil. It would be really very interesting to compare the effectiveness of 10% or 15% minoxidil with finasteride. Furthermore, such a study would have to be divided into subgroups of well-responding and non-responding people - like the finasteride study - , without any deceptive averages, because there is another very important factor: The consistency of use, which is quite difficult in a topical solution.

I have very little doubt about what would happen, if you made a more potent topical minoxidil preparation: it would grow a bit more hair, as usual, at the beginning; then (again, as usual) haircounts and hairweights would slowly start dropping again, just like it does in placebo users. That's the way it works, unfortunately.

In my opinion, nobody should use topical minoxidil all by itself, because the results won't last forever. It'll last for a while (maybe even a few years), depending on your fundamental balding rate; but it won't last FOREVER. Always use it with other products that _do_ interfere with the fundamental balding rate; Propecia would be one obvious example of such a product, although there are others, too.

 

[majorsixth]

Have you noticed Warlord He totally ignored your point about the studies on finasteride that also show both hair counts and weights to decline within a two year period. So the the same can be assumed about finasteride, that it doesn't interfere with the balding process just give a bit of regrowth.

I have read loads of anedoctal accounts of guys using just minoxidil and getting the same results.

 

[Bryan]

Have you noticed Warlord He totally ignored your point about the studies on finasteride that also show both hair counts and weights to decline within a two year period. So the the same can be assumed about finasteride, that it doesn't interfere with the balding process just give a bit of regrowth.

Finasteride gives a much greater stabilizing effect in both haircounts and hairweights, dumbbell. Haven't you read ANY of these studies I've been talking about?? Sheesh.

 

[majorsixth]

Have you noticed Warlord He totally ignored your point about the studies on finasteride that also show both hair counts and weights to decline within a two year period. So the the same can be assumed about finasteride, that it doesn't interfere with the balding process just give a bit of regrowth.

Finasteride gives a much greater stabilizing effect in both haircounts and hairweights, dumbbell. Haven't you read ANY of these studies I've been talking about?? Sheesh.

Yes twat i have read them, and they certainly show that both hair counts and weights begin to drop after two years. But i will tell you and everyone else i haven't read the studies on proxiphen Have you? Lol

 

[Bryan]

Yes twat i have read them, and they certainly show that both hair counts and weights begin to drop after two years...

I said in plain English (English IS spoken where you live, isn't it?) that although haircounts and hairweights drop when using finasteride, it has FAR more of a stabilizing effect than minoxidil. Haven't you seen that graph that's been posted REPEATEDLY from the 5-year finasteride study, in which the haircounts from the finasteride users dropped only a teeny tiny bit after five years (still above baseline), but the ones from the placebo users dropped PRECIPITOUSLY, after five years (well below baseline)?