Densiti - make yourself an equol producer :)

[Hoppi]

I never said equol was in Densiti.


Thanks for your support of equol though Hairrific, and I'm sorry for this friction over Densiti - I know I was a little enthusiastic as usual - but all I want is the best and most cohesive progress on the equol front possible ^_^ and that is what is happening!


EDIT -- hmm I need to know if this is correct for reducing daidzein to racemic equol:

I'm new to all this stuff so I just don't know ._. (it cut off the last H by the way so click to see the whole thing)

 

[Bryan]

We're about to find out

Really? How are you going to do that? Are you going to get blood tests before and after using Densiti, to prove to what extent it lowers bioactive DHT?

Or (far more likely, I suspect) are you simply going to take it for a while, then boldly announce to the world that "My body hair seems to be less, so this proves that Densiti makes more equol in our bodies, and proves that there's enough DHT reduction to equal the effect of finasteride, but without any side effects!" Isn't that about your speed, Hoppi?

 

[Hoppi]

let's pause for some music

[youtube:21j5eed0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Fin8uf88g[/youtube:21j5eed0]

 

[hairrific]

OMG HOPPIE thanks for that inspiration. I am running through a forest and I just kissed a flower and said to it, "I love you", what's happening to me! I dive into a river nude and rub the clay mud all over my body, I can feel it removing the sebum from my follicles as the sun bakes it, feels so great.

 

[Hoppi]

I am something of a hippy yes! lol

Italian hippies like me REALLY don't wanna lose hair xD

 

[BaldBefore24]

This whole Densiti thing is interesting to me and while there was a lot of needless banter in this thread there were some good parts to it as well from both sides.

Based on all this I think I may go ahead and try this stuff myself since it is reasonably priced and while there may be some side effects it appears to be worth the risk.

When it comes to testing a supplement that just stops hair loss (instead of say regrowing hair) it's hard to track and provide proof of effectiveness but I'll do my best for you guys.

Now Hoppi, I was very surprised while reading this thread when you started talking about creating an S-Equol ingestible supplement because being a fan of the Densiti product I figured you would have read everything on their site:

"There are also other efforts to use equol for hair loss treatment currently in the works. The only public knowledge currently disclosed indicates that these products focus on synthesizing equol outside the body and putting it into a supplement.

There are numerous problems with this approach. The equol molecule is not stable in an acidic environment and thus cannot survive the stomach at a gastric pH. In addition, exogenously synthesized equol may not be effectively absorbed in the intestines if it is not naturally produced there."

Based on the points they make there I feel like your supplement may be a wasted effort unless you have other reasons to believe that your S-Equol supplement would somehow get around these issues. I'm curious to know.

 

[Hoppi]

Erm, all the studies I have found so far indicate that s-equol is "highly bioavailable" when taken orally.

http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.aspx

http://www.sciencecodex.com/novel_soyba ... 59_percent


Joke is I was actually really prepared for a long struggle working out the best way to get the s-equol chemical into the blood stream when I was looking into this, because I had heard people saying a) that it didn't survive the stomach and b) that having the bacteria in you was somehow beneficial even once the s-equol is produced and in the blood. However I can't really find any information online that suggests there is a problem with s-equol's bioavailability when taken orally. If anyone finds any I would be fascinated to see it


EDIT -- Thing is I actually like the creator of Densiti a lot he's a cool guy, it's just that the number 1 thing I care about is watching treatments of male pattern baldness progress and improve. If s-equol works, I don't really care about making money from it, I just want to help myself and others to regain confidence and have nice hair

DOUBLE EDIT.. To be honest though I'm not sure I've actually experienced a change while on Densiti itself. My shedding seems the same really. I am confident I've experienced a reduction in dandruff and a nicer feeling scalp, but in terms of shedding I'm still losing about the same amount when I wash my hair (I have pretty long hair so it's very noticeable how many are lost).

This doesn't say much for the effectiveness of equol itself for me (as of course I can't be 100% I am an equol producer yet even, and on top of that s-equol production will vary person to person) but I'm not sure how much longer I will give the Densiti regimen to be effective. Perhaps one more week and then I'm jumping on fluridil and spironolactone until I can get an effective s-equol supplement made

 

[G k]

hoppi be hoppin'

 

[DarkVctry]

Bryan has a great track record and documented research behind his facts, and Hoppi I can understand you're "passion" and hope. Its easy for any of us to be optimistic. Alot of us will stay tuned to you're expriment here, but I have a question for ya.

If you're more into the all natural stuff then why not try Revivogen ? Also be careful ive heard too much soy can raise estrogen levels.

 

[Hoppi]

I would be fascinated to hear genuine, real reasons as to why s-equol might not work, or studies that prove that reasonable dose s-eq has no effects on male pattern baldness.

However at the moment all I usually hear is negativity surrounding a fascinating and unique chemical, with seemingly very little in the way of grounds or basis for such skepticism. It genuinely makes me wonder if there is an ulterior motive to this skepticism of some kind.

 

[G k]

I would be fascinated to hear genuine, real reasons as to why s-equol might not work, or studies that prove that reasonable dose s-eq has no effects on male pattern baldness.

However at the moment all I usually hear is negativity surrounding a fascinating and unique chemical, with seemingly very little in the way of grounds or basis for such skepticism. It genuinely makes me wonder if there is an ulterior motive to this skepticism of some kind.

Hoppi, you are the one who is biased towards this. Don't put the onus on us to prove that it does not work. Its not reasonable.

How many snake oils out there sound promising in theory?

Seriously man, give us a break.

Plus I thought it wasn't working for you anyway

 

[Hoppi]

Well, to say that "s-equol didn't work for me", is assuming that a) I actually produced equol successfully within my body when on Densiti and b) I produced a sufficient and sustainable amount to theoretically stop my hair loss. I don't think either point could be made with enough certainty to say that s-eq is ineffective.

Also, I know there are lots of "snake oils" but do remember that the observed properties of this chemical in the blood stream are unlike any other in the world. I believe it can even snatch DHT away from the androgen receptors. And if it IS the reason why Japanese men on the traditional diet usually keep their hair.. then we may be on to a very powerful chemical indeed

 

[Bryan]

And if it IS the reason why Japanese men on the traditional diet usually keep their hair.. then we may be on to a very powerful chemical indeed

Odd, isn't it, that if equol really _is_ the reason they kept their hair, their suppression of bioactive DHT wasn't enough to cause the formation of "pseudohermaphrodites" among the Japanese? How do you explain that curious fact, Hoppi?

 

[Hoppi]

I dunno man, but the studies back up s-eq's antiandrogen effect, that's good enough for me

 

[Bryan]

I dunno man, but the studies back up s-eq's antiandrogen effect, that's good enough for me

There are also tons of studies that back up the antiandrogenic effect of flutamide and other such drugs, too; but everybody knows that they would be profoundly dangerous for use by a pregnant woman! :shock:

It seems obvious that you were unaware of the little conundrum regarding equol: if it were a significant enough factor in the Japanese diet to prevent the progression of balding, it would obviously also be a very grave risk to unborn male fetuses. Since the Japanese aren't exactly famous for producing pseudohermaphrodites, that casts very grave doubt on your basic premise that equol has ever played any role at all in maintaining their hair. You need to start thinking about these things, Hoppi, and not just keep parroting these unsupported claims you make in your love affair with equol!

 

[Hoppi]

I think it's better to base judgment on studies rather than assumptions. S-equol has never been tested on men with male pattern baldness as far as I can tell, so I look forward to the results

 

[Hoppi]

Hm, perhaps with my new increased knowledge (and also new-found ability to agree with Bryan on some things! hehe ) we can return to this debate/conversation more constructively!

Ok erm, here is the most exciting piece of research I have found regarding equol:

http://www.biolreprod.org/content/70/4/1188.abstract

Equol (7-hydroxy-3[4?hydroxyphenyl]-chroman) is the major metabolite of the phytoestrogen daidzein, one of the main isoflavones found abundantly in soybeans and soy foods. Equol may be an important biologically active molecule based on recent studies demonstrating that equol can modulate reproductive function. In this study, we examined the effects of equol on prostate growth and LH secretion and determined some of the mechanisms by which it might act. Administration of equol to intact male rats for 4–7 days reduced ventral prostate and epididymal weight and increased circulating LH levels. Using binding assays, we determined that equol specifically binds 5?-dihydrotestosterone (DHT), but not testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, or estrogen with high affinity. Equol does not bind the prostatic androgen receptor, and has a modest affinity for recombinant estrogen receptor (ER) ?, and no affinity for ER?. In castrated male rats treated with DHT, concomitant treatment with equol blocked DHT's trophic effects on the ventral prostate gland growth and inhibitory feedback effects on plasma LH levels without changes in circulating DHT. Therefore, equol can bind circulating DHT and sequester it from the androgen receptor, thus altering growth and physiological hormone responses that are regulated by androgens. These data suggest a novel model to explain equol's biological properties. The significance of equol's ability to specifically bind and sequester DHT from the androgen receptor have important ramifications in health and disease and may indicate a broad and important usage for equol in the treatment of androgen-mediated pathologies.

Doesn't this sound simply incredible? I believe what this is saying is s-equol is capable of latching DHT away from the androgen receptor! Can you imagine what a potent addition to any regimen this could be? A chemical that not only mops up DHT from the blood, but also snatches DHT from receptors once it has taken hold!!

Incredible I am determined to make this stuff, or get it made somehow.

 

[Bryan]

Doesn't this sound simply incredible? I believe what this is saying is s-equol is capable of latching DHT away from the androgen receptor! Can you imagine what a potent addition to any regimen this could be? A chemical that not only mops up DHT from the blood, but also snatches DHT from receptors once it has taken hold!!

No, it is not, I repeat NOT, saying that equol can "snatch" DHT away from androgen receptors. That's just something you're reading into it! It states in plain English that equol binds circulating DHT, thereby preventing it from binding to androgen receptors. Try to calm down and think about this stuff logically and rationally, Hoppi.

 

[Hoppi]

Hm well I mean, isn't it possible to read that piece of text either way? I think that when combined with lignans it will be possible to cap both testosterone and DHT in the blood at the very least, which although as you said DHT has more of a paracrine/autocrine effect.. it can't hurt.. right?

I would say it's still well worth some tests! I will hunt the net to see if they have ever been done before on guys with hair loss

 

[Bryan]

Hm well I mean, isn't it possible to read that piece of text either way?

Not by _me_, it isn't!

I think that when combined with lignans it will be possible to cap both testosterone and DHT in the blood at the very least, which although as you said DHT has more of a paracrine/autocrine effect.. it can't hurt.. right?

Right.

I would say it's still well worth some tests! I will hunt the net to see if they have ever been done before on guys with hair loss

I'm 99.99% sure you won't find any such tests. I want to emphasize here that I certainly don't have any doubts that equol would work against hair loss, but only to about the same extent as Propecia. Furthermore, you'd have to take large quantities of the stuff, which would undoubtedly be very expensive. Last but not least, I would expect side effects to be about the same as Propecia, too.

I've been saying all this since Day One, Hoppi. Equol would work if given in a large enough dose, but it would no improvement over finasteride, and would be very expensive.