Degradation of Cetirizine in alcohol vehicles!

[Trichosan]

But you keep it in alcohol or just really a alcohol bath? I know or a fact that alcohol alone doesnt kill every single thing. Maybe mix alcohol with salt. Salt kills bad organisms doesnt it?

Salt will cause corrosion, do not use. You can get Barbicide from a beauty or barber supply store and it will be enough because you are only using it on yourself and it's not coming in contact with other people that could have hepatitis or HIV. The only other concern is you don't want to have bacteria, dirt or debris on your scalp that will be pushed subcutaneously by the derma roller. So, wash your head first, dry it, then wipe scalp once with alcohol on a tissue or gauze pad. Then use dermaroller. Frankly, you could get by with a 10 minute soak in bleach, then rinse off in water. Or, if you want to go full CDC just Google bactericidal solutions. Bunch of products like Birex, etc. will come up.

 

[Nostro100]

Salt will cause corrosion, do not use. You can get Barbicide from a beauty or barber supply store and it will be enough because you are only using it on yourself and it's not coming in contact with other people that could have hepatitis or HIV. The only other concern is you don't want to have bacteria, dirt or debris on your scalp that will be pushed subcutaneously by the derma roller. So, wash your head first, dry it, then wipe scalp once with alcohol on a tissue or gauze pad. Then use dermaroller. Frankly, you could get by with a 10 minute soak in bleach, then rinse off in water. Or, if you want to go full CDC just Google bactericidal solutions. Bunch of products like Birex, etc. will come up.

What I sometimes do on my spare time is, with a needle, remove the little fragments of dead skin (or whatever it is) that it is impaled on the dermaroller. Im kinda do sound a bit overkill but I did once get like a pimple on my scalp that really got ugly and I aint sure if it wasnt cause of the dermaroller or not

 

[Maave]

I've been trying the sorbitol-stabilized solution (from patent CN102133179A) for a couple days and it's kinda annoying. The sorbitol is noticably sticky after drying. If I were to wash my hair after it dries it wouldn't be an issue but that's not how my daily schedule works. I'm going to switch methods at the end of the week.

Alternatives so far:
-use a high molecular weight alcohol (PEG 1000 or greater)
-refrigerate and make batches weekly
-use deslo which is alcohol stable (but not clinically tested like cet)

I think the Chinese patent CN102133179A is more relevant to our use than the patent originally discussed because there's less processing involved. The Chinese study had only 3% loss over 6 months using with 0.1% cet, ~10% alcohol, and 1C temperature (solution #3 with no sorbitol). I'm going to go with the refrigeration method until I run out of cet. By then I should be on an anti-androgen.

 

[Maave]

Nizoral + cetirizine 3 month update: no noticeable change. My recession is very slow so it either halted or it's too slow to notice. There's no change in the velus hairs on my temples. I won't bother posting photos - my starting photos are too blurry because my camera can't focus close up. My mix is about 0.8% cetirizine (I messed up my numbers but it was close enough), 20% ethanol, and a drop or two of PEG. I'm only putting about 1ml on the receding spots and I do that twice a day. I can't apply too much or it just runs off. I bet that the cream from the initial cet study resulted in a lot more cet on the scalp.

On the upside, there are zero bad side effects. Only a small amount of cetirizine goes systemic and it's just like any other allergy medicine. I'll keep using it until I run out. I have about 1 month of cetirizine left. My doctor's appointment for AAs is in 2 weeks so there will be some overlap. I don't expect any magic to happen in 2 weeks though. It would be fun to keep testing cetirizine alone but I'm not going to put off getting on AAs.

If anybody else is considering cetirizine
-consider deslo which is stable in alcohol
-increase the concentration and/or alcohol content
-wait longer. Most studies take at least 6 months
-combine it with another alternative solution like Zix

 

[persistentone]

But this is yet another aspect I don't get. They say the treatment was:

"A galenic lotion composed of cetirizine 1%, 16% cyclo-silicone- pentamer, 96°C of ethyl alcohol applied once a day on the scalp."

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/v...erapeutic-management-of-androgenetic-alopecia
​

What the hell does this mean? What does 96°C mean? Anyone know?

I am also confused by the 96C reference above. That would be over 200 degrees Fahrenheit. What are they trying to say?

If I wanted the simplest possible way to mix 10 mg of cetirizine and apply it to the scalp with an alcohol-based mixture that would evaporate, how do I make that? Can I take a single 10 mg cetirizine tablet, ground that up, and then mix with 1 ml of distilled water and 1 ml of isopropyl alcohol?

What is the best way to get the cetirizine to disperse finely into the solution so that it does not leave behind a white residue on the scalp after drying?

 

[jamesbooker1975]

I am also confused by the 96C reference above. That would be over 200 degrees Fahrenheit. What are they trying to say?

If I wanted the simplest possible way to mix 10 mg of cetirizine and apply it to the scalp with an alcohol-based mixture that would evaporate, how do I make that? Can I take a single 10 mg cetirizine tablet, ground that up, and then mix with 1 ml of distilled water and 1 ml of isopropyl alcohol?

What is the best way to get the cetirizine to disperse finely into the solution so that it does not leave behind a white residue on the scalp after drying?

It is a concentration unit, means ethanol y el 4% is water

 

[jamesbooker1975]

I am also confused by the 96C reference above. That would be over 200 degrees Fahrenheit. What are they trying to say?

If I wanted the simplest possible way to mix 10 mg of cetirizine and apply it to the scalp with an alcohol-based mixture that would evaporate, how do I make that? Can I take a single 10 mg cetirizine tablet, ground that up, and then mix with 1 ml of distilled water and 1 ml of isopropyl alcohol?

What is the best way to get the cetirizine to disperse finely into the solution so that it does not leave behind a white residue on the scalp after drying?

To do a 1 % lotion, you will need 1 gram of cetirizine for 100ml lotion . Meaning you will need 100 tablets of the 10mg.
crush the tablets till you make a fine power, you can use a mortar .
Then put all that in a recipient , and add 100ml of distilled water , or if you want to use ethanol, 80 ml of distilled water and 20 of ethanol. Mix it, shake it , shake it and more shake it ( or you can buy a magnetic stirrer ) and let is rest for 24 hours.
Then, use a coffee filter, and remove all the excipients .simple use an funnel , put the filter there, and pass the lotion to another recipient with the tunnel.

 

[persistentone]

To do a 1 % lotion, you will need 1 gram of cetirizine for 100ml lotion . Meaning you will need 100 tablets of the 10mg.
crush the tablets till you make a fine power, you can use a mortar .
Then put all that in a recipient , and add 100ml of distilled water , or if you want to use ethanol, 80 ml of distilled water and 20 of ethanol. Mix it, shake it , shake it and more shake it ( or you can buy a magnetic stirrer ) and let is rest for 24 hours.
Then, use a coffee filter, and remove all the excipients .simple use an funnel , put the filter there, and pass the lotion to another recipient with the tunnel.

The formula is clear and thanks for the added detail of stirring and filtering. But how is 80 ml of distilled water and 20 ml of ethanol consistent with the 96% concentration gradient in the study? Why is it not 96% ethanol, 4% distilled water?

 

[jamesbooker1975]

The formula is clear and thanks for the added detail of stirring and filtering. But how is 80 ml of distilled water and 20 ml of ethanol consistent with the 96% concentration gradient in the study? Why is it not 96% ethanol, 4% distilled water?

You need to buy Ethanol 96C . The 96C already contain 96% alcahol and 4 % water . Any pharmacy should have, it is the same alcohol you can use when you gave an injury, to clean it . If not, on ebay is available too.
So, the Formula should be ( as an example ) :

Cetirizina 1g
Distilled Water 80 ml
Ethanol 96C 20ml

 

[NotInmywatch]

update after 7 months 1% cetirizine sprayed every night.
- 50 pills of 10mg crushed with coffee grinder and solved in 50mL of ethanol 96º (OTC, 96% ethanol, 4% water)
- left 24h at 4ºC to form pellet/supernatant and slow down degradation.
- 10 mL of supernatant sprayed to the entire head every night without exception during the last 7 months.
- hair should be kept relatively short (max 1 inch) in order to maximize scalp exposure

results
- itching is partially relieved, although dutasteride is at least 3x more effective in alleviating the itch.
- no changes whatsoever observed until month 6
- now at month 7 I'm starting to see vellus hairs slowly growing in previously bald areas, to my surprise, along the hairline
- notorious gain in hair diameter, and homogenization of hair diameter. With dutasteride alone there was a lot of variation in diameter.
- I do not believe that these changes are due to dutasteride since I've been on dutasteride for 6 years.

- will update at month 18

 

[persistentone]

update after 7 months 1% cetirizine sprayed every night.
- 50 pills of 10mg crushed with coffee grinder and solved in 50mL of ethanol 96º (OTC, 96% ethanol, 4% water)
- left 24h at 4ºC to form pellet/supernatant and slow down degradation.
- 10 mL of supernatant sprayed to the entire head every night without exception during the last 7 months.
- hair should be kept relatively short (max 1 inch) in order to maximize scalp exposure

After 24 hours, what temperature are you storing at?

10 mL sprayed every night is a huge volume of material. That is also a 100 mg dose versus 10 mg in the study. Did you mean 1 mL?

When are you applying cetirizine relative to when you apply other topicals and when you shower?

 

[NotInmywatch]

24 hours stored at 4ºC in order to allow the suspension to fall and form pellet/supernatant
the remaining supernatant is kept at 4ºC until it is used up.
50ml generates a pellet of aprox 10mL, so 40 mL supernatant lasts aprox 4 nights.
1% is 1g/ 100mL , or 1000mg/100mL or 50 pills x 10mg = 500mg/50mL.

10mL is a lot of volume indeed, but 50 generic 10mg pills cost me 1 dollar.

I clearly remember that the study stated 1% vs placebo.

I do not use minoxidil; then, I spray cetirizine everynight and go to sleep. 96º alcohol evaporates very rapidly.

I use ketoconazole 1% shampoo 2x or 3x/week in the mornings since 4 years ago. No cetirizine sprayed during the day.

I think that the cetirizine study is true; but I have the opinion that it takes several months to see something.

 

[persistentone]

24 hours stored at 4ºC in order to allow the suspension to fall and form pellet/supernatant
the remaining supernatant is kept at 4ºC until it is used up.
50ml generates a pellet of aprox 10mL, so 40 mL supernatant lasts aprox 4 nights.
1% is 1g/ 100mL , or 1000mg/100mL or 50 pills x 10mg = 500mg/50mL.

So 500mg/50mL = 10mg/1mL. And you are spraying 10 mL each night so doesn't that imply a 100 mg dose versus the study's 10 mg per-day dose?

 

[NotInmywatch]

So 500mg/50mL = 10mg/1mL. And you are spraying 10 mL each night so doesn't that imply a 100 mg dose versus the study's 10 mg per-day dose?

what you're saying is very interesting since most studies refer to concentration instead of absolute quantity of reagent.
now, in terms of absolute quantity , you're right: I'm using 100mg in 10mL instead of the described 10mg in 1mL of the rossi study.

perhaps this 10x increment in drug mass is clinically relevant? I don't know. at the moment, I just think that 10mL is better for covering the entire head.

 

[persistentone]

what you're saying is very interesting since most studies refer to concentration instead of absolute quantity of reagent.
now, in terms of absolute quantity , you're right: I'm using 100mg in 10mL instead of the described 10mg in 1mL of the Rossi study.

perhaps this 10x increment in drug mass is clinically relevant? I don't know. at the moment, I just think that 10mL is better for covering the entire head.

So the volume of material is relevant to getting coverage to the treatment area. You want 10 mL and that is fine if you need it. But you have to adjust the concentration of the chemical otherwise you get more than was originally studied.

Concentration into a given volume establishes the dose. And the dose is the actual quantity of the agent that you are applying to the problem. It seems to me you want to know the dose in the treatment volume you are using, otherwise, you end up overdosing or underdosing.

In your case maybe you are just applying the same concentration per mL to a much larger surface area of the scalp. Rather than covering the bald spots, maybe you are covering the entire scalp?

I do not know the health implications of taking in 10x the studied dose. Maybe it is benign? In any case you do not seem to be underdosing in any way.

 

[NotInmywatch]

So the volume of material is relevant to getting coverage to the treatment area. You want 10 mL and that is fine if you need it. But you have to adjust the concentration of the chemical otherwise you get more than was originally studied.

Concentration into a given volume establishes the dose. And the dose is the actual quantity of the agent that you are applying to the problem. It seems to me you want to know the dose in the treatment volume you are using, otherwise, you end up overdosing or underdosing.

In your case maybe you are just applying the same concentration per mL to a much larger surface area of the scalp. Rather than covering the bald spots, maybe you are covering the entire scalp?

I do not know the health implications of taking in 10x the studied dose. Maybe it is benign? In any case you do not seem to be underdosing in any way.

I have not experienced any side effect, not even irritation of the scalp, with this "10x dose". I have classic Androgenetic Alopecia (hairline and temples damaged, , norwood II vertex pattern, mostly reversed thanks to dutasteride) + mild diffuse pattern alopecia, hence the initiative to spray the entire head.

I have read about the cetirizine withdrawal syndrome, and that's a potential risk in the future once I hopefully migrate to trinov/clascoterone.

I think that Androgenetic Alopecia topical cetirizine users should share their experiences; but unfortunately since it's a weak PGD2 inhibitor it probably requires up to a year until changes are noticeable.

 

[persistentone]

I have not experienced any side effect, not even irritation of the scalp, with this "10x dose". I have classic Androgenetic Alopecia (hairline and temples damaged, , norwood II vertex pattern, mostly reversed thanks to dutasteride) + mild diffuse pattern alopecia, hence the initiative to spray the entire head.

I have read about the cetirizine withdrawal syndrome, and that's a potential risk in the future once I hopefully migrate to trinov/clascoterone.

I think that Androgenetic Alopecia topical cetirizine users should share their experiences; but unfortunately since it's a weak PGD2 inhibitor it probably requires up to a year until changes are noticeable.

I thought the withdrawal syndrome was for systemic use of cetirizine, but maybe at your dose you are getting a fair amount of systemic absorption and that is your potential risk.

I suppose you could test this just by doing a two week withdrawal from the topical cetirizine and see if you get scalp or whole-body itching with the two week withdrawal period. It would also be interesting to see what symptoms might develop in the scalp.

This is full text of the original study. In Table 1, they report after six months that there was a density improvement of 30.31% with standard deviation of only 4.21. So your results are already way off the study track. Given that you have a much higher therapeutic dose than they did, that is puzzling.

Does anyone see a dramatic difference between his treatment protocol and the one followed by the study group as described in the full text of the study?

 

[Screeech]

@jgray201 @NotInmywatch @jamesbooker1975

If you guys are still using cetirizine, how long are you storing it for before making another batch?

I see Wuhan on Alibaba (as well as a number of other venders on there) are selling ceti powder and I have no reason to believe the powder that they are selling isn't pure and won't do what is expected as I have positive experience of buying CB from there already.

I am concerned about desloratadine not being able to mimic the beneficial hair affects of ceti as @jgray201 referenced in an old post I was reading earlier, despite the fact they are incredibly similar as anti-histamines.

Also, with the degrading aspect, I saw IdealForehead posted something about ceti degrading by 40% within 3 weeks.

Is that all?

I would be looking to just using a 2% solution (as 1% was obviously what was used in trials) to ameliorate any loss of efficacy due to degradation in that case if I could get away with it.

Thanks for your help guys!

 

[jgray201]

I make a new batch about every 4 to 5 days. I store the cetirizine in the freezer.

I use a high % solution, about 4%, mixed with 50% water, %30 ethanol, 20% dimethicone which is a silicone compound which i think is close to that used in the study. To be honest i don't know what level of degradation there is but mixing up the solution regularly must help.

One thing I have noticed is that some of it must go systemic. I have really bad allergies, i.e. hayfever in summer and since i have been using this solution i do not need to take oral meds or antihistamines. This is probably no surprise though as in theory i am using approximately 80-100mg topically a day and 10 mg is the prescribed dose for oral cetirizine.

My bserveration is that it is a good maintenance and thickening treatment.

 

[Arden1]

I make a new batch about every 4 to 5 days. I store the cetirizine in the freezer.

I use a high % solution, about 4%, mixed with 50% water, %30 ethanol, 20% dimethicone which is a silicone compound which i think is close to that used in the study. To be honest i don't know what level of degradation there is but mixing up the solution regularly must help.

Is cetirizine stable in water? If so, why not mix it solely in water, and when applying it to the scalp apply 1 ml alcohol after applying the cetirizine/water solution?