Day 1 on avodart.

[Stingray]

Even though the half-life is longer than finasteride, you still need to MAINTAIN a certain level of the drug in your system to maintain benefits. If .5mg a week, or a month would be sufficient to reduce DHT enough, then glaxo would have recommended .5mg once a week or a month as the proper dosage.

 

[Bryan]

Re: hi

Hi Bryan,

But Avodart has a longer half-life than Propecia. That could also be looked at as extended or time release. Wouldn't that still give Avodart an edge over Propecia even if it was every 5 days?

I don't think so.

I really think the long-half life of dutasteride is the source of a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about the drug. In my opinion, the only relevance for the half-life is that it allows for a greater flexibility in how you take it; in other words, you can take it daily, if you wish, or only weekly or perhaps even only once every other week (I'd draw the line at that point). And even then, you still have to take the proper AVERAGE dose of the drug.

BTW, you should know that dutasteride has non-linear elimination characteristics: at much smaller doses like only one Avodart capsule per week or so, the half-life will be nowhere near as long as it is at the standard dose, or higher.

Plus it's a dual DHT (type 1 and type 2) blocker.

Another thing you should know is that its potency against the type 1 enzyme is much lower than it is against the type 2 enzyme. At only 1 Avodart capsule every 5 days (or per week), its activity against the type 1 enzyme is fairly negligible. The bottom-line, in my opinion, is that when you get to that low a dose (1 Avodart every 5-7 days or so), its effect on DHT is almost indistinguishable from that of finasteride.

Bryan

 

[nizoralad]

Hi ...

Hi Bryan,

It's just kind of strange how the daily dose of Proscar at 5 mg is more beneficial for enlarged prostate, where as at 1 mg (Proscar or Propecia) it is more beneficial for hair loss/growth because it's just the inverse for Dutasteride (Avodart) -- with 0.5 mg being the optimal dose for benign prostatic hyperplasia, and at the higher doses 2.5-5 mg for hair loss/growth. I did read at 0.5 mg per day there is a 90% suppression rate of DHT. It's like why the contradictory evidence? (If I may be so inclined to say).

I have been on Avodart (I had never tried Propecia before) for almost 4 months at 1, 0.5 mg per day. I do not use a topical. I'm maybe a Norwood 2a-3a at best. Everything was going well with no side effects and I noticed a reduction in hair fall out around the 1 ½-mark, but at the 3-month mark (with still having a reduction in hair loss, my hair felt and looked thicker, and less scalp itchiness) I started to develop sharp pains in my head, rapid heartbeat, and an arthritic feeling. It became extremely difficult just to concentrate. It was pretty scary. I was confused as to what could be causing this because Avodart had been working out so well for almost 3 months. Was it stress, diet, etc? After stopping and starting it several times I knew it was Avodart causing these side effects. At one point I think I went 2 weeks without it and when I resumed the side effects came back. This medication stays in your system and you feel it days and weeks after stopping. There was NO possible way I could continue on this daily dosage. I then saw a lot of information online about the possible neurological implications of blocking type 1 enzyme and given that Proscar (Propecia) blocks 2/3 of type 2, with “experts believing that the remaining one-third (DHT) is necessary for the fluid in the brain and should not be eliminated as this may cause neurological problems.â€￾
http://www.retainandgrow.com/male_patte ... ness.shtml
The idea that Avodart blocked both types of DHT, studies were more impressive compared to Proscar, and the fact that type 1 may be implicated in seborrheic dermatitis, all made me want to find a way around this. I have since been trying to find a middle of the road dose that could be still be effective, if that does exist. I know I can’t take this medication 7 times a week. What in your opinion could Avodart be taken the least amount in a week and still be effective and have an advantage over Propecia? Is Avodart a more potent type 2 blocker than Propecia? I will try Propecia if I know Avodart can’t be effective at a dose of 2-4 times a week or continue to experience those side effects. Have you tried or do you take Propecia or Avodart? Do you think blocking type 1 (which of course Avodart does) brought on these problems for me? Could it be my DHT levels is not that high to require a strong medication like Avodart? Or is Avodart really for an enlarged prostate, (and for patients with severe cases where they did not respond well to Proscar) hence not the approval for hair loss? However, there have been good responders on posts for hair loss, which is puzzling. Avodart as we all know is a brand new drug. Maybe sometime down the road it will surface how there are indeed neurological problems associated with blocking type 1 and Avodart will be reexamined or withdrawn. What are your thoughts? Thank you for your help.

 

[Stingray]

Actually, 5mg of finasteride is more beneficial for hair regrowth than 1mg, however just marginally. I suppose the difference between dutasteride and Finasteride is because Dutasteride is a DUAL 5-AR inhibitor. .5mg supresses 90% of serum DHT, but only 55% of scalp DHT. At 2.5mg it goes up to about 90% scalp inhibition. Different drugs, different effects.

 

[Bryan]

Re: Hi ...

It's just kind of strange how the daily dose of Proscar at 5 mg is more beneficial for enlarged prostate, where as at 1 mg (Proscar or Propecia) it is more beneficial for hair loss/growth because it's just the inverse for Dutasteride (Avodart) -- with 0.5 mg being the optimal dose for benign prostatic hyperplasia, and at the higher doses 2.5-5 mg for hair loss/growth.

I agree with what Stingray said: a dose of 1 mg/day of finasteride (Propecia) is not really an "optimum" dose for hairloss. Higher doses would almost certainly be more effective, although probably only marginally so.

Merck simply settled on that lower dose for Propecia just as a sort of compromise: a minimally effective dose, with perhaps a lesser chance of side-effects (although that's another can of worms that annoys me). Remember, BPH is a more serious condition than male pattern baldness! It doesn't surprise me the least little bit that they would hit BPH with a more aggressive dose of the drug than they would a relatively harmless (you know what I mean) cosmetic problem like balding.

After stopping and starting it several times I knew it was Avodart causing these side effects. At one point I think I went 2 weeks without it and when I resumed the side effects came back. This medication stays in your system and you feel it days and weeks after stopping.

And yet your symptoms went away only a couple of weeks after stopping??

There was NO possible way I could continue on this daily dosage. I then saw a lot of information online about the possible neurological implications of blocking type 1 enzyme and given that Proscar (Propecia) blocks 2/3 of type 2...

Actually, Proscar blocks about 90% of the type 2 enzyme. Propecia slightly less...I'm guessing maybe 85%-90% or so.

You're confusing the SERUM reduction of DHT with the percentage of the type 2 enzyme inhibition. It's the SERUM DHT that gets reduced by 2/3 (give or take).

What in your opinion could Avodart be taken the least amount in a week and still be effective and have an advantage over Propecia?

In Glaxo's hairloss trial, a dose of 0.1 mg/day of dutasteride was virtually identical to finasteride, so one Avodart every 4 to 5 days would meet that definition.

Is Avodart a more potent type 2 blocker than Propecia?

Yes. At 5 mg/day, finasteride inhibits about 90% of the type 2 enzyme. At 0.5 mg/day, dutasteride inhibits around 98%-99% of the type 2 enzyme.

Have you tried or do you take Propecia or Avodart?

No.

Do you think blocking type 1 (which of course Avodart does) brought on these problems for me?

I've no idea.

Could it be my DHT levels is not that high to require a strong medication like Avodart? Or is Avodart really for an enlarged prostate, (and for patients with severe cases where they did not respond well to Proscar) hence not the approval for hair loss? However, there have been good responders on posts for hair loss, which is puzzling. Avodart as we all know is a brand new drug. Maybe sometime down the road it will surface how there are indeed neurological problems associated with blocking type 1 and Avodart will be reexamined or withdrawn.

The type 1 inhibition is a bit of a concern for me, too, but we just don't have any answers yet to all your excellent questions. However, keep in mind that at the standard Avodart dose (0.5 mg/day), only a little over half of the type 1 enzyme seems to be inhibited. It would be even more of a concern at the larger doses that some people contemplate, like 2.5 mg/day.

Bryan

 

[nizoralad]

thank you

"In Glaxo's hairloss trial, a dose of 0.1 mg/day of dutasteride was virtually identical to finasteride, so one Avodart every 4 to 5 days would meet that definition."

Hi Brian,

When you mentioned the above trial, are you referring to finasteride as (5 mg) Proscar or Propecia (1 mg) also called finasteride? I may be incorrect in how I said this.

Thanks again for all your help. It was very kind of you.

 

[Bryan]

Proscar was used in the Glaxo trial, but once again, there wouldn't be THAT much difference between Proscar and Propecia.

Bryan

 

[Stingray]

Bryan... I want you to have my children.

How come the peeps on Hairsite hate you so much? You're a f*****g genius!

 

[HairlossTalk]

Bryan... How come the peeps on Hairsite hate you so much? You're a f*****g genius!

You just answered your own question!

HairLossTalk.com

 

[Stingray]

Open mouth, insert foot.

 

[x5o]

4th week on Avodart. Started with one .5 mg. per day for 7 days and then went to dosing once on Sun. and once on Wed.

Stayed on the Proscar (once per day).

To soon to tell if the Avodart is doing anything. No neg. side effects at this point.

 

[ppl]

ppl

I would like to know

How many % DHT does 0.5 mg dutasteride block:
1) in Serum?
2) in Scalp?

How many % DHT does 1mg finasteride block:
3) in Serum?
4) in Scalp?

5)is there type I 5AR in the follicle?
By blocking the type I 5AR, is it work for the hairloss?
6)is there type II 5AR in the follicle?

It always say that propecia reduce 2/3 of the DHT,i get confused.
Is it mean it can block almost all the type II 5AR, with 2/3 of the DHT is produced from type II 5AR. 1/3 of DHT is produced from type I?
or any clearer concept? I feel confused.

The hairloss condition of family is:
================================================
Grandfather(~90): totally bald since ~50
father(~55) : receding hairline, thinning in the crown, mostly in vertex.
father's bro(~50): seems no hair loss, full head of hair

Grandmother(~80): full head of hair
uncles(~40/50) : diffuse thinning on the vertex, no receding hairline
mother(~55) : diffuse thinning, mostly on frontal
Bro(~30) : thinning in vertex, little bit receding hairline
Bro(~30) : receding in temple, thinning in the crown
me(~25) : receding temple, thinning in frontal, no thinning in vertex(hairloss severly since last July, 2 or 3 times thinner in the frontal.
================================================
Hairloss make me worried, dispress, shy, passive most of the days. I take propecia + minoxidil + green tea + herbs + SP + grape seed extract.
After using minoxidil 5% for 1 month last year, many regrowth in the temple, BUT NO REGROWTH in the frontal!! why??? all the hair that lost in July/Aug haven't regrowth, very thin. But the product seems a little bit work in the temple.
It seems that the hair once lost, no observable regrowth in my frontal(even no thin hair). It distress me great extent. So, I will try anything as long as it is WORK for the hairloss and regrowth. As I take propeica 6 months. Propecia help me to control the loss, but no regrowth.
Now, I think i am Norwood 2a/3a.
Before, I was a quite good looking guy, no worry of finding GF, but now... lose all confidence.
I think I don't HAVE THE TIME to wait for 1 year to observe the effectiveness of the propecia. So, I am preparing to take avodart. I live in HK, no avodart here. So I need to order it via the web. Any secure and good site(good quality, not fake drug) that I can order avodart???

I hope anyone can give advice for me, thank you very much!

 

[Stingray]

I'm pressed for time right now, so I'll just be brief. It sounds like your family has a history of real slow balding, so you will too more than likely. You should be a good responder to propecia, so give it a year before jumping to another treatment. Dutasteride is about twice the cost of finasteride with about twice the likelyhood of side effects as well. It inhibits roughly 90% of serum DHT with 55% scalp inhibition at the .5mg dose. Finasteride is about 60% serum and I'm not sure the scalp inhibihition. I'll do some research tonight to give you more information.

 

[X190]

What's up Sting? How you comin along with that stuff bro? Good luck...

XL

 

[Stingray]

Sup X... Not too much to talk about.. still looks ok I guess. A little deterioration, but still looks the same as it did a year ago. That in and of itself is results as far as I'm concerned. I was with this chick last weekend.. she'd be playing with my hair and sh*t, never even noticed. That's all that matters to me

 

[X190]

Sup X... Not too much to talk about.. still looks ok I guess. A little deterioration, but still looks the same as it did a year ago. That in and of itself is results as far as I'm concerned. I was with this chick last weekend.. she'd be playing with my hair and sh*t, never even noticed. That's all that matters to me

It's all good homie, there's other things she can play with additional to your hair =P. And yes, I enjoy head massages now with my girl, so it's all good knowing that hair is no object in our relationship at the moment. We'll see what's up. Keep us posted on yout AVD progress... one.

XL

 

[George Costanza]

Finasteride is about 60% serum and I'm not sure the scalp inhibihition. I'll do some research tonight to give you more information.

I thought 1mg finasteride reduced total dht by 66% and scalp dht by 33%

 

[Bryan]

Nobody really knows for sure what the scalp DHT reduction figures are, because there's conflicting information about that.

Bryan

 

[Stingray]

That's why I said "ABOUT"

 

[ppl]

I observed that the hair is diminishing in the root. It get thinner and thinner. Hairline receded in Aug was growth in Oct, Nov, etc. But now the hair seems to be lost some(hairline), the hairline is still receding. Is it mean that propecia not work for me???
Although my uncles(mother's side) still have hair, but they mostly start to lose early, in 20s, diffuse thinning, but their lost sems to be fixed and progress very slow. Their hairloss have not great difference compare with 10 years ago(most of them haven't take propecia).. My father start to lose when he was 40s. i think I inherited mother side more.
Should I take the strong medicine like Avodart to prevent further loss? How is the effecience?

I always wonder that if avodart works better than propecia, and increase hair count, why there are still not so much ppl to take avodart? In considering of it side-effect and its effectiveness, i believe many of us could take his challenge, how precious the hair is???
The most i consider is the effectiveness of avodart, because some ppl said that when they shifted from propecia to avodart, they suffered hairloss again and receding hairline. But some of them have better result than propecia.
I really confusing in there. please help.