@IdealForehead I don't know if you've followed much of the current running topical finasteride trials (P-3074 ). They've supposedly as of last publishing recognised that they've managed to reduce systemic absorption by 15 times that of oral. Presumably its because they've been working on a vehicle to prevent systemic penetration of finasteride - any possibility of mirroring such a vehicle to limit the systemic effects of daro ?
Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?
- Thread starter DavidsDome
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All I can find about that is that it contains "finasteride 0.25% as active ingredient and hydroxypropyl-chitosan (HPCH) as film-forming agent". If we had the full formulation we could probably try to copy it. But I don't know what the full formulation is. Got any info? Looks like they're keeping it under wraps as a "proprietary formulation".
Either way, I've said this a hundred times but I have no idea how any pharmaceutical company thinks they're going to release a topical anti-androgen for hair loss without getting sued into oblivion for liability problems from contact transfer. To protect themselves, finasteride tablets say: "Proscar tablets should not be handled by a woman who is pregnant or who may become pregnant" on them. How do you put that disclaimer on someone's scalp?
People have been testing topical finasteride solutions since at least 2009 and no one's brought anything to market. I will be shocked if they bring this to market. If they do, and they can get away with it, then maybe a real legit topical daro formulation won't be far behind. (Bayer can send us all thank you notes for it.) Seriously doubtful to me though. Just because topical antiandrogens work doesn't mean they're practical.
As for the vehicle, I'm quite happy at present with the PG/ethanol/water. This is a classic vehicle that dissolves almost anything you need and has been proven with minoxidil and RU for years. I'm personally inclined not to mess with it too much unless there's a really good new template to work from.
Always open to ideas though if we've got sufficient details to work from.
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Makes sense. When I apply MDV with it's 1 mL of each DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol, it stays wet unlike the Ethanol/PG vehicle I use for ODM which I feel it dries fast.
I'm gonna swap Ethanol and PG and see what happens.
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Generally speaking you also don't want to go higher than 50% PG as PG is a potential irritant. Hence 50% PG, 30% ethanol, 20% water final composition is likely a fairly ideal compromise between each of the three components.
We'
do you heat up your solution with the Daro? If yea can you describe how you do it?
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I said I just microwave it 5-6 seconds at a time. Then shake for a while. Then reheat if it's cooling down completely. You ideally probably don't want it above around 60 degrees celcius to ensure stability of all your ingredients so it should get warm but not too hot to the touch. Microwaving longer than 5-6 seconds at a time can overheat it. Dissolves pretty easy after a few rounds of this and this is a reasonably simple approach.
So you microwave it in with the entire solution PG/Ethanol/Water?
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Yes. I just dump all my powders into the vehicle in a 50 ml bottle like one of these ones then microwave and shake it.
https://m.ebay.com/itm/Amber-Glass-...:m:m7lGkzLX0XEwk65NACeGU0w&varId=610711638061
I use a mini funnel like this but with the neck half snipped off to shorten it to get the powders in the bottle:
https://m.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-New-Sm...319385?hash=item1c5f8f6d19:g:W3MAAOSwoydWk27g
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Do you apply the solution while it's warm or the temperature doesn't matter during application?
By the way I noticed white flakes where I've been applying, so it could be the Daro isn't even penetrating with my vehicle because it also dries very quickly. I'm going for that vehicle you suggested.
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That's the problem with too high ethanol. It will just evaporate and leave powder (of whatever is in it) on your skin.
Don't apply it warm. Warming is just to facilitate dissolution and breakup of the chunks. You can just leave it at room temperature once it's all dissolved.
This is some pretty powerful stuff. If you dont get results on something like this then I dont know what to say. male pattern baldness isnt controlled by androgens I guess, but realistically you cant expect more then maintenance. Castration does not reverse male pattern baldness. Reversing male pattern baldness is not realistic for any AA that is a totally different ball game
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Should you expect the itch to stop immediately as an indicator that it's working? I still get an itch despite even using MDV in the DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol vehicle. JLF posted before that a chemist friend of his said that you NEED water, otherwise it won't penetrate. I haven't been adding water since my failed MDV mixes, which would cloud it. I have 75.5% Ethanol, but looks like I will have to add water from now on.
Strange though, since people using RU do a 70/30 vehicle without any mentioning of adding water. Are these applications evaporating from the high ethanol content and probably not even penetrating from the lack of water?
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Keep in mind a lot of people fail on RU, which may be due to inadequate dosage as I've discussed previously but might also be due to poor vehicle composition. I'm not sure of water being beneficial for penetration. My perspective has primarily been that water is useful for dissolving water soluble agents, and also for "softening" the formulation, since both PG and ethanol are irritating in high enough quantities, while water is not.
My itch went pretty damn dead when I started daro. Eventually, I started itching anew though due to the extreme dryness on the high doses. So I cannot say itching is always a perfect indicator. At present I have almost no itch. Any itch I do have I think is from mild dryness which I don't mind, as I'm getting results, and it's not bothersome.
If you are using 75% ethanol, then you could do for 20 mL:
10 mL PG
8 mL of 75% ethanol
2 mL extra water
This should come to roughly 50% PG, 30% ethanol, 20% water. Again these proportions are somewhat arbitrary, but I do believe this is a good basic starting point.
Quickstrike
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Just ordered 5 Grams of Daro.. Ugh. The Canadian dollar is pretty low these days.
In your mind, the niacinamide and desloratadine are pretty important if you want to reduce irritation + cosmetic wear and tear?
Express shipped via FedEx, so I should have it in my hands soon.
In your mind, the niacinamide and desloratadine are pretty important if you want to reduce irritation + cosmetic wear and tear?
Express shipped via FedEx, so I should have it in my hands soon.
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I hope you've read up through the thread on the risks and don't mind things like potential decreased sperm count (or even possible complete infertility), plus are not in a position where you might be transferring to any kids or pregnant women. (Sorry for sounding like a broken record.)
The niacinamide I mainly use because it's anti-inflammatory and pro-collagen, while minoxidil is pro-inflammatory and anti-collagen. My hope is it helps to balance things out and keep the skin healthy. Niacinamide also works wonderfully on my face as an anti-acne treatment (with good evidence for acne), and things that are anti-acne may also be anti-hair loss in principle. It is known to reduce sebum which helps both for acne and hair loss. It's dirt cheap too.
I only added the desloratadine in the past week and it's a gamble. I'm not sure if it will help in the long run or how much. I figure why not try.
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My new vehicle for 8 mL is:
2.4 mL Ethanol
4.0 mL PG
1.6 mL Water
14 mg ODM.
For MDV it's the same 1 mL of each DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol plus I added 0.5 mL Water, so it's now a 3.5 mL solution.
The ODM solution is absolutely clear.
The MDV solution is clear, more or less the same.
50 mg of that. There are few particles if you look closely. I feel like adding even a bit of water to it can easily bring it out of solution. I've had that before with previous MDV mixes.
2.4 mL Ethanol
4.0 mL PG
1.6 mL Water
14 mg ODM.
For MDV it's the same 1 mL of each DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol plus I added 0.5 mL Water, so it's now a 3.5 mL solution.
The ODM solution is absolutely clear.
The MDV solution is clear, more or less the same.
50 mg of that. There are few particles if you look closely. I feel like adding even a bit of water to it can easily bring it out of solution. I've had that before with previous MDV mixes.
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The only way of transferring is by touching hair right?
And decreased sperm count/infertility ? Is there any study that links to that or you based your opinion on other AA like RU/Enza or Anti 5AR like Fina/Duta?
Thats what i fouund in the literature:"
An increase in ethanol content above 70%, however, leads to dehydration of the stratum corneum combined with a decrease in flux. This means that a certain amount of water in the vehicle is necessary for the penetration-enhancing effect of ethanol.“
peewee
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just to share;
I've changed my mix with RU after reading Ideal's recommendation and I have to say I like it. I've upped my dose of RU and i'm doing 50% PG, 30% ethanol, 20% water, I like it... my hair is not so dry and it styles better. not sure if the increase dose will stop my shed, hopefully.
Thanks very much Ideal
I've changed my mix with RU after reading Ideal's recommendation and I have to say I like it. I've upped my dose of RU and i'm doing 50% PG, 30% ethanol, 20% water, I like it... my hair is not so dry and it styles better. not sure if the increase dose will stop my shed, hopefully.
Thanks very much Ideal