Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[Sanchez1234]

I applied another 1 mL.

I still don't feel anything, no sides, no tingling.

3.5 mg in total so far.

Your doing mdv and daro?
Nice that you dont have sides! I hope i'm not the unlucky one!

 

[countjulian]

Thanks cucked. You're absolutely correct - I worry a lot. But it's more an ethical thing for me. Obviously like I've said if you buy experimental chemicals from China and put them on your head, that's your risk. But I worry more about especially young guys using this stuff without thinking about it and 5-10 years later trying to have kids and finding out they're infertile. Or developing penile atrophy. Or developing diabetes. Or osteoporosis.

I guess all medications have risks. Even finasteride/dutasteride can reduce fertility. And those are "approved" for hair loss. So it's not like the risks aren't there for other things. But in addition to those, there's the potentially major risk I've mentioned many times about contamination around the house, which could cause developmental risks to pregnant wives, or small children.

I just don't want people f*****g up their lives or those of their families over experimental hair treatments. I've come to the conclusion that I would rather discourage people from using it than encourage them. Then if we find out in 5 years that darolutamide causes pancreatic cancer or something ridiculous like that, I won't have it on my conscience when I read the news that I encouraged anyone to use this stuff.

Those that really want to experiment (like me) will experiment. I am providing all the information I can on my experiment for future reference. But there are a lot of casual users on this site that will never read the full thread or think thoroughly about what they may or may not be subjecting themselves to. And those are the ones I really think especially should just stick to finasteride/dutasteride/RU.

I don't know what the future will hold for this treatment. I think it will become a popular "underground" treatment like RU58841, but much, much stronger. I doubt it will become mainstream due to transference risks. I'm happy to contribute to the knowledge on it in any way I can. I hope there's some published hair research at some stage.

People can of course do what they want with any information. But no, I really don't want to encourage people to use it, because I don't know what the f*** will happen to them long term if they do, and I don't want that weight or worry on my conscience. I can live with f*****g up my own life, but I don't want to contribute to f*****g up anyone else's.

Thanks for your perspective and I'm glad you find it all interesting and engaging. I certainly do. This has been really fun for me. And great results so far.

You're a good man Charlie Brown. Class act

 

[SpaceInvader]

Your doing mdv and daro?
Nice that you dont have sides! I hope i'm not the unlucky one!

Yes, both of them. The MDV is done in a DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol vehicle, while the ODM is in an Ethanol/PG vehicle. I leave a gap between applications.

For ODM, the Ethanol/PG is the way to go. Try that, and see if you get anymore sides.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

Btw what do you guys think of it ?
http://www.folliclethought.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Quark-Pharma_WCHR2017_FolliceThought.pdf

 

[Jonnyyy]

Yes, both of them. The MDV is done in a DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol vehicle, while the ODM is in an Ethanol/PG vehicle. I leave a gap between applications.

For ODM, the Ethanol/PG is the way to go. Try that, and see if you get anymore sides.

What percentage of Ethanol/PG?

 

[SpaceInvader]

What percentage of Ethanol/PG?

It's 6 mL of Ethanol and 2 mL PG. I think it dries too fast, so I might add more PG.

I'll do 5 mL Ethanol, 3 mL PG next and see where that goes.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Yes, both of them. The MDV is done in a DMSO/PEG-300/Ethanol vehicle, while the ODM is in an Ethanol/PG vehicle. I leave a gap between applications.

For ODM, the Ethanol/PG is the way to go. Try that, and see if you get anymore sides.

Do you microwave it to dissolve it more quickly? How long did you shake to desolve the Eth?
I am going to start friday with it again.

 

[SpaceInvader]

The ethanol is in a 10 mL glass bottle, and I place in a pan of boiling water to slowly bring up the temperature. The chunks of Daro dissolved almost immediately woth very little shaking.

 

[IdealForehead]

One Month Update

I've been DMSO free for a few days, plus on the lower dose for a little while. and I'm feeling much better. My skin is back to normal. I did not use any moisturizer after showering tonight (just my usual niacinamide/GHK-Cu serum) and it's completely fine like usual. My appetite is back as far as I can tell to normal. I'm gaining weight/muscle back to my usual size.

Current Formulation:
20 mL Kirkland minoxidil (minoxidil 5%)
50 mg daro (0.25%)
1.5 g RU (7.5%)
1 g niacinamide (5%)
0.2 g desloratadine (1%)

I am applying 2 mL at bedtime after showering, and 0.5 mL to the hairline in the morning (6.25 mg daro /day). I will probably bump this to 2 mL at bed and 1 mL in morning tomorrow (7.5 mg/day), since the side effects have really subsided, and I want the max I can handle.

Still not sure on the desloratadine - it definitely makes the scalp calmer, but I don't know if this is a net positive or negative. That's another issue for another thread. Just added it a few days ago anyway. Not sure if I'll keep it.

Hair Results:
I started aggressive treatment (spironolactone/cypro/oral minoxidil) two months ago, and only stopped that once I got onto the daro. So it's hard to separate the first month on the spironolactone/cypro from this month on the daro. I sort of still have to comment on what's happened in the past two months as a whole since it's been a continual process.

Overall, I started at a deep NW2 with slick bald NW2 areas. I had deep thinning to the NW3 apparent under aggressive lighting.

At present, my contour is most accurately a weak NW1.5 with thinning to an early NW2 depth. The deep NW3 thinning is completely gone. I have fuzz that is visible at regular mirror distance (without leaning in) up to my NW0, but most of this is very weak and will likely never regain sufficient density or terminalization to matter.

It's been years since I've had a hairline this good. If I get another month or two worth of progress at this rate, my hope is to attain a very solid NW1.5 on both sides (possibly weak NW1). That is the absolute most I need given my pending forehead reduction surgery which will be reshaping my hairline completely.

Long Term Thoughts:
Even though I don't think I will have kids, at some point I will probably get my sperm count tested on this stuff once I have a stable dose. Honestly just curious if there will be anything still there. As we've reviewed, most of the long term side effects of daro will be silent, so a person would have to find other ways to see what it's doing to them. A sperm count might be helpful in that regard.

I plan to be on this the rest of my life unless something changes. I'm quite satisfied so far. Probably my long term maintenance dose will be <5 mg /day but I don't know that yet.

I'm at the stage where I'm not really thinking about hair anymore, as I consider the problem effectively "solved". My thoughts are now mostly elsewhere (eg. my revision jaw surgery I'm planning). Still, there are many unknowns, and for the purposes of the experiment, I will update in another month or if I find any reason to significantly tweak the doses further.

 

[Jonnyyy]

One Month Update

I've been DMSO free for a few days, plus on the lower dose for a little while. and I'm feeling much better. My skin is back to normal. I did not use any moisturizer after showering tonight (just my usual niacinamide/GHK-Cu serum) and it's completely fine like usual. My appetite is back as far as I can tell to normal. I'm gaining weight/muscle back to my usual size.

Current Formulation:
20 mL Kirkland minoxidil (minoxidil 5%)
50 mg daro (0.25%)
1.5 g RU (7.5%)
1 g niacinamide (5%)
0.2 g desloratadine (1%)

I am applying 2 mL at bedtime after showering, and 0.5 mL to the hairline in the morning (6.25 mg daro /day). I will probably bump this to 2 mL at bed and 1 mL in morning tomorrow (7.5 mg/day), since the side effects have really subsided, and I want the max I can handle.

Still not sure on the desloratadine - it definitely makes the scalp calmer, but I don't know if this is a net positive or negative. That's another issue for another thread. Just added it a few days ago anyway. Not sure if I'll keep it.

Hair Results:
I started aggressive treatment (spironolactone/cypro/oral minoxidil) two months ago, and only stopped that once I got onto the daro. So it's hard to separate the first month on the spironolactone/cypro from this month on the daro. I sort of still have to comment on what's happened in the past two months as a whole since it's been a continual process.

Overall, I started at a deep NW2 with slick bald NW2 areas. I had deep thinning to the NW3 apparent under aggressive lighting.

At present, my contour is most accurately a weak NW1.5 with thinning to an early NW2 depth. The deep NW3 thinning is completely gone. I have fuzz that is visible at regular mirror distance (without leaning in) up to my NW0, but most of this is very weak and will likely never regain sufficient density or terminalization to matter.

It's been years since I've had a hairline this good. If I get another month or two worth of progress at this rate, my hope is to attain a very solid NW1.5 on both sides (possibly weak NW1). That is the absolute most I need given my pending forehead reduction surgery which will be reshaping my hairline completely.

Long Term Thoughts:
Even though I don't think I will have kids, at some point I will probably get my sperm count tested on this stuff once I have a stable dose. Honestly just curious if there will be anything still there. As we've reviewed, most of the long term side effects of daro will be silent, so a person would have to find other ways to see what it's doing to them. A sperm count might be helpful in that regard.

I plan to be on this the rest of my life unless something changes. I'm quite satisfied so far. Probably my long term maintenance dose will be <5 mg /day but I don't know that yet.

I'm at the stage where I'm not really thinking about hair anymore, as I consider the problem effectively "solved". My thoughts are now mostly elsewhere (eg. my revision jaw surgery I'm planning). Still, there are many unknowns, and for the purposes of the experiment, I will update in another month or if I find any reason to significantly tweak the doses further.

Do you think it would be smarter to apply 1ml twice a day, or 2ML once a day? I'm guessing 2ML because of the half life and ability to spread it all over your scalp rather than use 1ML and hope it sufficiently covers your problematic areas, what are your thoughts?

 

[countjulian]

Do you think it would be smarter to apply 1ml twice a day, or 2ML once a day? I'm guessing 2ML because of the half life and ability to spread it all over your scalp rather than use 1ML and hope it sufficiently covers your problematic areas, what are your thoughts?

This stuff is extremely powerful stuff, and your hair isn't even that bad, start with 1 ML or even less. This is going to help your hair, you should be more worried about sides especially when starting.

 

[SpaceInvader]

I made another batch of 30 mg in 3 mL PG and 5 mL Ethanol (75.5%). Heating mostly dissolves the chunks pretty good, almost no need of shaking. There are a few small particles floating around if you look closely, but it's mostly clear. Not sure if you're also getting this.

Still using it with 50 mg of MDV a few hours apart.

 

[peewee]

To start slow with this, what would be a dose for 2ml for the whole head. Mixing with everclear and pg?

 

[Jonnyyy]

This stuff is extremely powerful stuff, and your hair isn't even that bad, start with 1 ML or even less. This is going to help your hair, you should be more worried about sides especially when starting.

My hair doesn't seem that bad to you because you didn't see it at its prime lol, I've lost a good 40% density and if I get sides I'll just lower the dose, so far nobody on this forum has gotten sides from the PG/Ethanol vehicle as far as I know.

 

[countjulian]

My hair doesn't seem that bad to you because you didn't see it at its prime lol, I've lost a good 40% density and if I get sides I'll just lower the dose, so far nobody on this forum has gotten sides from the PG/Ethanol vehicle as far as I know.

Ideal got a ton of sides, his body was super dry and he lost muscle mass and appetite. Also he's fully grown and in his thirties, you're still possibly growing dude. Your base muscle mass, height and even penis size could increase for you in the next few years, and this could negatively impact all of those. You should start at a low dose and only go up if you're not seeing the results you want and you're not getting sides.

 

[Jonnyyy]

Ideal got a ton of sides, his body was super dry and he lost muscle mass and appetite. Also he's fully grown and in his thirties, you're still possibly growing dude. Your base muscle mass, height and even penis size could increase for you in the next few years, and this could negatively impact all of those. You should start at a low dose and only go up if you're not seeing the results you want and you're not getting sides.

Ideal got those sides from using DMSO which increased systematic absorption by a sh*t ton, he didn't know it was possible to just go the PG/Ethanol route, and he started at I believe 4x the dose I'm gonna take and 2x a day too, I'm only going to do once.

 

[Sanchez1234]

I made another batch of 30 mg in 3 mL PG and 5 mL Ethanol (75.5%). Heating mostly dissolves the chunks pretty good, almost no need of shaking. There are a few small particles floating around if you look closely, but it's mostly clear. Not sure if you're also getting this.

Still using it with 50 mg of MDV a few hours apart.

I still dont get how you heat it up. What do you do exactly?
Pouring hot water in a glass might break it anf your putting it in a pan of water and then boil the glass with the daro and eth inside?

 

[SpaceInvader]

I still dont get how you heat it up. What do you do exactly?
Pouring hot water in a glass might break it anf your putting it in a pan of water and then boil the glass with the daro and eth inside?

I put 5 mL of Ethanol in a 10 mL glass spray bottle and then place it in a pan of boiling water filled about half way the spray bottle for a few minutes. Then you can pour in the Daro and it should dissolve immediately with almost no shaking. If there are still a few chunks in there, you can place the bottle of Daro and Ethanol in the boiling pan again for a few minutes and it should dissolve on it's own.

 

[SpaceInvader]

To start slow with this, what would be a dose for 2ml for the whole head. Mixing with everclear and pg?

I started with 14 mg in 6 mL Ethanol and 2 mL PG. 8 mL total for 1.5 mg/mL every time with a Syringe.

I did 30 mg in 5 mL Ethanol and added 3 mL PG to it the second time. I did notice a few particles, so I'm going to make less next time. Plus my Ethanol is 75.5%, so that might have something to do with it.

I think I'll do 20 mg next time. 2-3 mL each application should do it.

 

[IdealForehead]

I started with 14 mg in 6 mL Ethanol and 2 mL PG. 8 mL total for 1.5 mg/mL every time with a Syringe.

I did 30 mg in 5 mL Ethanol and added 3 mL PG to it the second time. I did notice a few particles, so I'm going to make less next time. Plus my Ethanol is 75.5%, so that might have something to do with it.

I think I'll do 20 mg next time. 2-3 mL each application should do it.

Hey SpaceInvader, you may want to consider trying to change your vehicle composition.

Ethanol is very directly toxic to your skin and hair follicles (ref, ref). When I first started mixing solutions, I used 70% ethanol, but I've gradually learned to reduce this on principle. I now keep ethanol at 30% maximum, and I would go lower if I could, but I need this amount to dissolve my RU sufficiently. Ethanol functions as a penetration enhancer also, but we don't need too much penetration or we'll end up with the same problems as DMSO was creating.

Furthermore, ethanol evaporates rapidly and does not leave a film or reservoir of compound on the skin the way "sticky" agents do. Thus you may get shorter duration of action and less drug delivery over time with a high alcohol percentage. In principle, with a higher PG solvent, some amount of PG may remain on your skin with daro dissolved in it, acting as a "daro reservoir" which can continue to supply daro to the skin/scalp for a longer duration after application.

Consider trying a 50% PG, 30% ethanol, 20% water solution. I believe this is roughly what Kirkland minoxidil is. Given that you're still having trouble dissolving the daro with your high alcohol vehicle, it suggests daro is more soluble in PG than ethanol. You will likely therefore get better dissolution by increasing the PG content while reducing ethanol.

I have had no trouble dissolving 0.25% daro fully in Kirkland minoxidil. I also had no trouble dissolving even 0.5% daro fully in my usual custom vehicle of 50% PG, 30% ethanol, and 20% water when I was using this higher concentration.