Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

IdealForehead

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IdealForehead, thank you for your effort and everything!
  • I have read all your posts about Darolutamide and I have two questions regarding its strength. Do you think it could reverse hairloss in a similar way that tranny drugs do? For example a person using it could go from nw4 or even 5 back to nw2 or 1.
  • And what effects do you think it would have if you would cycle it. I.e. 4 weeks on 2 off and then 2 weeks on 1 off and so forth.
I hope it works for you and you don't get any more sides.

Hey man, thanks. I'm certainly hoping that as well!

Quick update today first: I cut the dose to 2 mL of 0.25% last night, and this morning I just applied 0.5 mL of 0.25% to the hairline. I already feel so much better. My skin feels just mildly dry. My eyes are still a bit dry but not raw/painful.

So that was 5 mg last night and 1.25 mg this morning. Down from 10 mg twice a day which was f*****g insane and made me feel like I was being cooked alive from dryness. I'm guessing I'll have to keep my maintenance dose at ~5 mg or less per day. I will keep tweaking, monitoring, and updating until I can find a stable, tolerable, effective dose.

To answer your questions, first of all, there is no good reason in my opinion to ever cycle any effective hair loss treatment. Androgenic hair loss is a continuous process and thus you need a continuous solution. Going through periods of treating your hair and then neglecting your hair is not beneficial. If you want to keep your hair through life, you need to find a tolerable treatment that you can maintain safely or comfortably on a regular basis for life. Cycling would simply be less efficient than finding a stable regular comfortable dose and it would have no benefits I can imagine.

As for your question of how topical darolutamide should compare to oral tranny regimens, in my opinion, darolutamide should be considered the absolute "gold standard" as the strongest theoretical method possible for androgen deprivation of the scalp (whether topical or oral).

Tranny regimens are different from standard regimens in two ways: (1) they use strong oral antiandrogens like spironolactone or cyproterone, and (2) they often involve estrogen. Estrogen is a bit of a wild card. Its role in hair growth is controversial. But as for the antiandrogenic component, darolutamide is far stronger than any conventional tranny medication.

Based on my research, the potency of darolutamide's androgen inhibition dwarfs any other known existing conventional anti-androgen by a massive margin. I also do have some limited personal experience with using all of oral spironolactone, oral cypro, and topical darolutamide. Based on my personal experience, as well as the theory, I think it is fair to say topical darolutamide is definitely the strongest.

I believe oral spironolactone at 200 mg a day or oral cypro at 100 mg a day would both be much, much weaker than 5-10 mg of darolutamide applied to the scalp daily if compared in a head-to-head trial.

I base this conclusion primarily on the fact that I took spironolactone 200 mg and cypro 100 mg each for a few weeks just before starting daro. Both were strong enough to give me severe erectile/sexual dysfunction. By the end my dick was basically dead on cypro which was no surprise. Doses of 100 mg cypro a day are used commonly for chemical castration of sex offenders. Despite this, neither spironolactone nor cypro was remotely strong enough in anti-androgenic capacity to shut down the sebaceous/sweat glands through my scalp or my entire body the way daro has over the span of the past few weeks. I noticed slightly less body odor and less oily facial skin on cypro and spironolactone but that's it.

Furthermore, neither cypro or spironolactone are strong enough that in the highest doses they can be used as single agents to castrate prostate cancer. On the other hand, that is exactly what darolutamide was designed for. Darolutamide in its highest doses can shut down the most aggressive and mutated prostate cancers better than anything, all by itself.

Darolutamide is so much stronger of an anti-androgen than cypro or spironolactone even in tiny doses, it should not remotely be considered in the same class, for any application.

The degree of recovery that would be possible on a treatment like topical darolutamide would depend on the individual. How much one is capable of a major recovery is based primarily on how long that person has been balding, how much regenerative capacity their scalp has, and what growth stimulants you are using. But certainly in my opinion, topical darolutamide has a far greater capacity to fully castrate your hair follicles than any standard oral tranny regimen like cypro/spironolactone, and castrating the follicles is the first step towards a potential major recovery. So I do think tranny type massive recoveries are theoretically possible if combined with a good scalp and growth stimulants.

The potency is what gives darolutamide great potential but also danger.

As for the danger, and what I was posting about earlier, I think I'm going to write a big long "Why You Should Never Use Darolutamide" post explaining all the reasons I know of and put a link in my signature. I think it will make me feel better and help me feel freer to post my opinions and experiences which I enjoy sharing, without worrying how people might interpret it.

Last update: My sexual function is steadily improving on daro. I think the original theory I posted that sexual dysfunction is caused by anti-androgenism in the brain will prove correct, and since daro doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, sexual side effects should be minimal. But I still need more time there to see for sure.

In principle, if you subscribe to the theory that blocking DHT/androgens can shrink/atrophy penile tissue over time, then systemic daro would still pose that risk over time. But the goal should be to minimize systemic daro anyway. And as a last resort, a person could always do what the penis enlargement forum guys do and get some DHT gel (Andractim) to rub on your dick periodically to compensate.

It just would become funny of course. Blasting anti-androgens on the scalp and then rubbing testosterone/DHT on your dry eyes and shrinking dick to compensate. LOL. That would not be a rational approach.
 
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Oppenheimer

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That's what I said earlier in the thread. That's normal. I posted about it here:



It's a mild pain in the *** but no big deal. Just be patient and shake it a really long time or use a mixing spoon/device to crush up the little chunks. It will dissolve eventually.

Also dude, you went hard with the 0.5% like me! Well all I can say is don't apply much or apply infrequently. Or consider mixing another 20 mL of solvent in with that to reduce the strength a bit. I'm cutting my dose in half as of tonight. I'm gonna reduce what I've already premixed by 50% by mixing with an equal volume of Kirkland minoxidil to get the daro down to 0.25%. I will continue to apply twice daily as I have minoxidil in there as well.

I've been trying to intentionally ignore and mentally play down this dry skin issue. That's how I prefer to deal with side effects - ignore them until they absolutely become intolerable. Then you know for sure it was a real problem and not in your head. It has been gradually escalating for the 3 weeks since I started this stuff and it's gotten intense. I thought even earlier today I'd be able to ignore it longer. But as of today, my eyes feel raw. My skin feels almost raw as well like I'm being dried out in an oven. I felt like I stepped on a piece of glass earlier walking around on the hardwood of my house barefoot then I realized it was probably just my skin starting to fissure/tear (skin tears were reported as a common side effect in the article I posted before on severe androgen deprivation). I slathered my foot with coconut oil and it settled down. But eyes are still raw. (Bandaid solution I worked out if needed is to get some testosterone gel/cream and apply it to my eyelids - found some studies this works for dry eyes in general, and it would certainly help in theory for the dryness caused by this issue.)

I think I am more susceptible to this dryness effect than most people would be as dry skin and eyes run in my family. But cypro 100 mg and spironolactone 200 mg both had no drying effect like this at all, suggesting even the tiny topical daro dose I'm using is more systemically potent for antiandrogenism than the massive oral doses I was taking of either cypro or spironolactone.

I think the final dose I maintain on is going to be very very low. Like less than 0.1% once daily low. Hilariously this could end up costing pennies a day because so little is probably needed. The ~5.5 grams I have on hand might last me years! lol.

That's why I haven't bothered asking Luo about the texture or if he can refine it in the future. It will probably be 2019 or maybe even 2020 before I need another order, and by then there will be hundreds of retailers on Alibaba all selling it dirt cheap. Also, like I said it's just a minor inconvenience to get it to dissolve. And from what @JLF says about enza, it might just be the way these guys are.

Anyway, it will all dissolve eventually.

Get shaking. Good wrist exercise. Fun for everyone!

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where can you buy such a wrist 'shake' trainer?
 

Ollie

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@IdealForehead Any word on those results of Kane's Ru58841 ? I really need to put to rest whether I'm rubbing baking soda on my head or not.
 

Jonnyyy

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@IdealForehead Any word on those results of Kane's Ru58841 ? I really need to put to rest whether I'm rubbing baking soda on my head or not.
He said he was no longer testing them, most likely you're actually rubbing Ru on your head it's just not that effective, how many times a day do you apply?
 

IdealForehead

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@IdealForehead Any word on those results of Kane's Ru58841 ? I really need to put to rest whether I'm rubbing baking soda on my head or not.

Sorry Ollie. See this thread:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...an-lyphar-ru58841-tested.109964/#post-1579570

Can't justify the time and money cost to test something I will no longer be continuing. Reasons are explained in there. I will make a new thread explaining how to get things tested for anyone who wants to do it at some point soon, and you can use that as a guide if you want to get your RU tested.
 

Ollie

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He said he was no longer testing them, most likely you're actually rubbing Ru on your head it's just not that effective, how many times a day do you apply?

I've only been using RU for about a month now. 50mg dissolved in 2ml of solution - twice a day. The real test will be if at 6 months there is any benefit. Its just annoying to be applying something to your head when you have no idea if its actually what its meant to be.


Thanks Man !
 

Jonnyyy

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@IdealForehead you're probably the most knowledgeable on this forum about Daro, does it act in a different way that RU does? or is it pretty much the same just way more potent?
 

IdealForehead

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@IdealForehead you're probably the most knowledgeable on this forum about Daro, does it act in a different way that RU does? or is it pretty much the same just way more potent?

In short, they're both androgen receptor antagonists meaning both work by blocking dht and testosterone from binding to androgen receptors. But darolutamide has a longer half life so will stay active in the scalp (and blood) longer and it blocks the androgen receptor probably somewhere around 62 to 186 times more strongly than RU.

Full strength comparison here:
https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...conversion-of-ru58841-to-darolutamide.109065/

The other primary difference is RU and its active metabolites can easily cross the blood brain barrier where daro cannot.
 

IdealForehead

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I've only been using RU for about a month now. 50mg dissolved in 2ml of solution - twice a day. The real test will be if at 6 months there is any benefit. Its just annoying to be applying something to your head when you have no idea if its actually what its meant to be.



Thanks Man !

That's a really low dose of RU ollie. I doubt you'll get anywhere with that. In my experience you need to mix 5-10% RU and apply 2 ml twice daily to get results. Ie. 100-200 mg RU in 2 ml twice daily. Good luck either way.
 
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peewee

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Hi Ideal, hey do you just use a dropper and then massage in with fingers? No rubber gloves right?
I sometimes wonder if a lot of my ru absorbs in my fingers and also my hair is longer on top to hide my thinning so maybe I loose a lot to the hair instead of being absorbed in the scalp.
 

IdealForehead

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Hi Ideal, hey do you just use a dropper and then massage in with fingers? No rubber gloves right?
I sometimes wonder if a lot of my ru absorbs in my fingers and also my hair is longer on top to hide my thinning so maybe I loose a lot to the hair instead of being absorbed in the scalp.

Yeah I just use a glass dropper with a rounded tip and apply maybe 0.25-0.5 mL at a time to different areas with the glass tip against my scalp and rub it in with my fingers. We will all lose a lot to the hair but that shouldn't matter as long as enough gets on the scalp.

Interestingly, that raises the point that probably different people will lose different amounts to the hair depending on how dense their hair is and their application method, which could cause significant dose-response differences from one person to another.

ie. If one person has a short buzz cut and is applying it carefully and another has big long messy hair with sloppy application, the amount of an active compound that gets to the scalp could differ considerably between them.

I don't bother with gloves. I just wash my hands after. I would never worry about RU on my fingers beyond that. But with daro maybe gloves wouldn't be a bad idea as daro is so strong that any direct to the fingertips over time may shut down their sweat/sebaceous glands, leading to dry/cracked fingers. Can't be bothered now but maybe it's something to consider.
 

peewee

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How long is daro stable, maybe your supplier could make us a solution rather. I never like mixing every week
 

IdealForehead

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How long is daro stable, maybe your supplier could make us a solution rather. I never like mixing every week

I don't think anyone could ever know that at the present. No data. I'd bet it is pretty stable but I don't know. I'm mixing every 5 days because I'm still tweaking the composition with each batch. Once it's done, I'll probably mix 10-14 days worth at a time. That's fine with me. Can't see a reason to mix much more at a time either way.

Solution stability tests are hard to run. I chatted about it with my test lab last time I was there. You basically have to mix the compound in your solvent first. Then take a small amount of your solution out and dry it, meaning evaporate all the solvent. Propylene glycol for reference has a boiling point of 188.2 °C. So you have to boil it at 188.2 °C. For this to work, you have to presume the darolutamide is heat stable up to 188.2 °C. Ie. That the process of boiling off the PG won't destroy the daro in the process. There's no way of knowing that unless you find data on it first or do a separate test first to assess. But anyway, assuming that daro is stable up to this point, you then dry it, get your powder left over from the sample, weigh it, and test it by LC mass spec to see what molecular weights of different compounds are present. That will give you your "starting data".

Then you take the original solution, leave it on a shelf for a month or 6 months or whatever, and again repeat the process of taking a sample out, drying it at 188 degrees, and then testing the powder you get from that. You compare the results from your "starting point" to your "1-6 months later" point to see how much degradation has occurred.

In other words, it's f*****g hard to do. So unless some proper chemist does it and publishes some data, I'll just mix every week or two and leave it at that.

Also, to follow up on your other question, these are my favorite droppers for application:
https://www.amazon.com/Calibrated-Graduations-Pipettes-Perfume-Included/dp/B0751K5PPC
 

peewee

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Well I'm very curious to try this and I've often thought if we could get a group of guys here to commit to a quantity, maybe we could get a better price. Maybe he could even powder it up for us to make mixing easier. If I bought some I'd go the opposite way that you did, I'd go small dose and work up a little. Maybe a really small dose would work.
 

Jonnyyy

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I don't think anyone could ever know that at the present. No data. I'd bet it is pretty stable but I don't know. I'm mixing every 5 days because I'm still tweaking the composition with each batch. Once it's done, I'll probably mix 10-14 days worth at a time. That's fine with me. Can't see a reason to mix much more at a time either way.

Solution stability tests are hard to run. I chatted about it with my test lab last time I was there. You basically have to mix the compound in your solvent first. Then take a small amount of your solution out and dry it, meaning evaporate all the solvent. Propylene glycol for reference has a boiling point of 188.2 °C. So you have to boil it at 188.2 °C. For this to work, you have to presume the darolutamide is heat stable up to 188.2 °C. Ie. That the process of boiling off the PG won't destroy the daro in the process. There's no way of knowing that unless you find data on it first or do a separate test first to assess. But anyway, assuming that daro is stable up to this point, you then dry it, get your powder left over from the sample, weigh it, and test it by LC mass spec to see what molecular weights of different compounds are present. That will give you your "starting data".

Then you take the original solution, leave it on a shelf for a month or 6 months or whatever, and again repeat the process of taking a sample out, drying it at 188 degrees, and then testing the powder you get from that. You compare the results from your "starting point" to your "1-6 months later" point to see how much degradation has occurred.

In other words, it's f*****g hard to do. So unless some proper chemist does it and publishes some data, I'll just mix every week or two and leave it at that.

Also, to follow up on your other question, these are my favorite droppers for application:
https://www.amazon.com/Calibrated-Graduations-Pipettes-Perfume-Included/dp/B0751K5PPC
I asked Luo, and he said 1 year in room temperature and 3 in the freezer.
 

IdealForehead

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I asked Luo, and he said 1 year in room temperature and 3 in the freezer.

That's in powder form. It doesn't tell you what will happen in solution, though like I said, probably it's fine in solution. You'd have to do the stability testing like I said if you want to be sure.
 

Sanchez1234

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Just applied daro for the first time. I'm guinea pig number 2.

It took me literally 1 hour of shaking. I decided to go for 1ml 0.25% the first 2 weeks (2.5mg) only on the frontal region. The hairloss is worse their and needs to stop receding. I bought latex gloves and carefully rubbed it in. Don't want to having this stuff on my fingers.

My history: tried finas, ru and duta without succes. So this is my last hope to at least maintain...
 

inmyhead

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Just applied daro for the first time. I'm guinea pig number 2.

It took me literally 1 hour of shaking. I decided to go for 1ml 0.25% the first 2 weeks (2.5mg) only on the frontal region. The hairloss is worse their and needs to stop receding. I bought latex gloves and carefully rubbed it in. Don't want to having this stuff on my fingers.

My history: tried finas, ru and duta without succes. So this is my last hope to at least maintain...

You got it from same source? Do you have any itch or something? Also, can you, please ,take good before pictures?
 

Sanchez1234

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You got it from same source? Do you have any itch or something? Also, can you, please ,take good before pictures?
Yes, same source. Not really. But i do have lots of shedding + very oily scalp.

@IdealForehead i kind of feel tingling feeling over my body. Its now 1.5 hours ago i applied. Do you had this?
 

IdealForehead

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Yes, same source. Not really. But i do have lots of shedding + very oily scalp.

@IdealForehead i kind of feel tingling feeling over my body. Its now 1.5 hours ago i applied. Do you had this?

Are you sure you're not imagining it from anxiety? Maybe go watch some TV and relax. Otherwise, perhaps this is what can happen from rubbing experimental unregulated Chinese chemicals on your scalp. (You were warned.)

Besides continuing great hair growth and improved optimism in life due to that, the only thing I've noticed myself on daro has been skin/eye dryness which took weeks to develop at 10 mg twice daily.

When I put on my first batch I was elated. I felt so happy and excited because for me it felt like the beginning of the end of my hair loss suffering. And so far, it looks like it has been exactly that.

But if you're feeling super stressed out and worried instead, perhaps you could be vulnerable to nocebo side effects. Kind of like when guys take one tablet of finasteride and then claim they have permanent erectile dysfunction.

Hope you feel better. Let us know.
 
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