blood circultion in bald men study

S Foote.

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@S Foote., what is your opinion about the dermal adipose layer being essential to follicle health? I'm of the opinion that it is diminished in bald scalp compared to unafflicted skin.

I don't think the adipose layer has any effect whatsoever on hair follicles. I think that the changes in the adipose layer are just another effect of the changes in tissue fluid pressures and levels., and another misleading conclusion has just been made here.
 

S Foote.

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What happens if you have hypoxia or reduced blood flow to chest hair/facial hair? Does it die off like head hair?
How different is body hair compared to head hair are there a lot of differences?

As far as the potential size of hair follicles is concerned, I don't think there are any significant differences in Human hair follicles. Given the same external resistance conditions, I think all Human follicles respond the same way. We know scalp follicles can go from full terminal to vellus, and beard follicles can go from vellus to full terminal. I can see no reason why other body follicles should be any different.
 

S Foote.

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I think there is a important point people should understand. The basic claim here is not mine, it is what the accepted science in tissue growth physiology tells us. It is the traditional hair follicle research, that is clearly ignoring the recognised science in tissue physiology here!

I think people need to stand back from the genes and molecules, and consider the systems interactions at the functional level. Physiology cannot defy the laws of physics, and hair follicle enlargement "within" the dermis, must be subject to the same spatial controls as any other tissue growth in-vivo.

As soon as you add this external resistance factor to the known data, you can explain hair follicle miniaturisation purely through accepted textbook physiology. You don't even need to know what is happening at the genetic/molecular level, to understand the process here. In fact no amount of genetic or molecular studies can reveal this kind of systems interaction, as the last sixty years or so of such hair loss research has clearly demonstrated!

The normal resistance based spatial growth controls in-vivo, are implicated as the mechanism of hair follicle miniaturisation in the common cases of hair loss. There is simply no way around this, for any of the current treatment options research. The only way to significantly increase hair follicle enlargement in-vivo under these circumstances, is to significantly reduce the external pressure factor, that causes the early onset of this growth control. I think it is this what scientists should be working on.
 

Thebaldcel

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There is plenty of research demonstrating the large amount of factors that can influence hair loss. People are caught up on "genetic sensitivity" to androgens while disregarding everything else as insignificant. Those people will also admit that sensitivity to androgens can increase with age, which is admitting the significance of epigenetics; at the same time, they will deny the significance of environmental factors.

Pure genetic sensitivity would be static, and sensitivity would not change significantly over time if epigenetics were not significant to AR sensitivity. If it was the case of a mutant AR gene, then it would've already been identified.

Some quick research on factors that can upregulate androgen receptor expression can easily show how everything fits together to amplify a catabolic effect on scalp hair. The more that I read into it the more I see how complex it actually is, past the accepted "solely genetics>dht sensitivity>hair loss" theory.
 

abcdefg

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As far as the potential size of hair follicles is concerned, I don't think there are any significant differences in Human hair follicles. Given the same external resistance conditions, I think all Human follicles respond the same way. We know scalp follicles can go from full terminal to vellus, and beard follicles can go from vellus to full terminal. I can see no reason why other body follicles should be any different.

Why cant this theory be tested on facial hair or body hair? Wouldnt that be easier than ge
There is plenty of research demonstrating the large amount of factors that can influence hair loss. People are caught up on "genetic sensitivity" to androgens while disregarding everything else as insignificant. Those people will also admit that sensitivity to androgens can increase with age, which is admitting the significance of epigenetics; at the same time, they will deny the significance of environmental factors.

Pure genetic sensitivity would be static, and sensitivity would not change significantly over time if epigenetics were not significant to AR sensitivity. If it was the case of a mutant AR gene, then it would've already been identified.

Some quick research on factors that can upregulate androgen receptor expression can easily show how everything fits together to amplify a catabolic effect on scalp hair. The more that I read into it the more I see how complex it actually is, past the accepted "solely genetics>dht sensitivity>hair loss" theory.

Do we know that sensitivity to androgens like AR receptors though never change naturally just through normal cellular aging? I mean nothing in a human functions the same as we get older all organs and tissues gradually lose effectiveness why would hair be any different? Nothing stays static in living organisms. Personally I think male pattern baldness is majorly involved with the immune system which is why cyclosporin grows tons of hair. Seriously look at pictures of men on cyclosporin they regrow norwood levels. The immune system keeps hair dormant and suppressed after the large and complex cascade of events kicked off by androgens. Androgens are our only course of action, but we all know its not just DHT involved.
If you just look at real world evidence go look at men and women at 50+ years old. Count the numbers with male pattern baldness/FPB and just tell me hormones are not involved at all? How many women have beards and back hair? Hormones are absolutely a huge critical player in the initial trigger. You cant even argue it. No one ever said DHT solves male pattern baldness and its the only factor.
Its not influenced by environment that much though. Its more your individual immune response to male pattern baldness that makes it unique by person. Also AR layout/density which may change with age naturally since everything is in relation to time.
 
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Thebaldcel

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Do we know that sensitivity to androgens like AR receptors though never change naturally just through normal cellular aging? I mean nothing in a human functions the same as we get older all organs and tissues gradually lose effectiveness why would hair be any different? Nothing stays static in living organisms. Personally I think male pattern baldness is majorly involved with the immune system which is why cyclosporin grows tons of hair. Seriously look at pictures of men on cyclosporin they regrow norwood levels. The immune system keeps hair dormant and suppressed after the large and complex cascade of events kicked off by androgens. Androgens are our only course of action, but we all know its not just DHT involved.
If you just look at real world evidence go look at men and women at 50+ years old. Count the numbers with male pattern baldness/FPB and just tell me hormones are not involved at all? How many women have beards and back hair? Hormones are absolutely a huge critical player in the initial trigger. You cant even argue it. No one ever said DHT solves male pattern baldness and its the only factor.
Its not influenced by environment that much though. Its more your individual immune response to male pattern baldness that makes it unique by person. Also AR layout/density which may change with age naturally since everything is in relation to time.

When we see young men maintaining but then suddenly start losing ground on finsteride, ru, and other antiandrogen treatments, the AR transcriptional activity has evolved beyond what could happen with regular cellular aging.

I have never said hormones do not play a large role. The androgen receptor plays a major role in the immune response; Androgenetic Alopecia is ultimately caused by the immune system. Androgens mediate such a response, and it is why androgens have been concluded to be the cause. The genetic component is how we respond to inflammation. It is no coincidence that Androgenetic Alopecia is correlated with metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease.

Your comment is a good example of what I said in my original post about people who indirectly admit to the impact of epigenetics but say environmental factors aren't significant. You bring up cellular aging in your first sentence but then later say environmental factors aren't significant. This is quite contradictory because environmental stress plays a big role in cellular aging. In addition, you theorize about the immune system but did you know environmental factors play a large role in the immune system? This is what I mean by people contradicting themselves.

If you want learn more about Androgenetic Alopecia then you need to look at all the cytokines, hormones, and transcription factors involved with Androgenetic Alopecia and AR. Then you need to see what all those factors interact with and what can cause increased expression of these factors. You will see how deep the rabbit hole goes. People denying environmental significance seem to not read much past some papers on DHT attacking hair follicles.

This old study itself already demonstrates an environmental difference in balding areas vs nonbalding.
 
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Armando Jose

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As far as the potential size of hair follicles is concerned, I don't think there are any significant differences in Human hair follicles

+1

As soon as you add this external resistance factor to the known data, you can explain hair follicle miniaturisation purely through accepted textbook physiology

The normal resistance based spatial growth controls in-vivo, are implicated as the mechanism of hair follicle miniaturisation in the common cases of hair loss. There is simply no way around this, for any of the current treatment options research. The only way to significantly increase hair follicle enlargement in-vivo under these circumstances, is to significantly reduce the external pressure factor, that causes the early onset of this growth control. I think it is this what scientists should be working on.

http://delusionalinsects.com/styled-17/styled-18/photos-21/files/page26-1015-full.html


What about the hardened sebum in your theory? Fits in it?
 

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Trichosan

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When @S Foote. speaks of external pressure factors as it applies to favorable growth environment and massage to increase circulation, would a device that creates negative pressure to the scalp achieve what he advocates? Perhaps in the most base of terminology, basically a penis pump for your head, but the effect is the same. Decrease external pressure, draw blood into the area. Might be impossible as maintenance if you have hair but on a balding crown, cupping or some other pump means might be possible.
 

abcdefg

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When we see young men maintaining but then suddenly start losing ground on finsteride, ru, and other antiandrogen treatments, the AR transcriptional activity has evolved beyond what could happen with regular cellular aging.

I have never said hormones do not play a large role. The androgen receptor plays a major role in the immune response; Androgenetic Alopecia is ultimately caused by the immune system. Androgens mediate such a response, and it is why androgens have been concluded to be the cause. The genetic component is how we respond to inflammation. It is no coincidence that Androgenetic Alopecia is correlated with metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease.

Your comment is a good example of what I said in my original post about people who indirectly admit to the impact of epigenetics but say environmental factors aren't significant. You bring up cellular aging in your first sentence but then later say environmental factors aren't significant. This is quite contradictory because environmental stress plays a big role in cellular aging. In addition, you theorize about the immune system but did you know environmental factors play a large role in the immune system? This is what I mean by people contradicting themselves.

If you want learn more about Androgenetic Alopecia then you need to look at all the cytokines, hormones, and transcription factors involved with Androgenetic Alopecia and AR. Then you need to see what all those factors interact with and what can cause increased expression of these factors. You will see how deep the rabbit hole goes. People denying environmental significance seem to not read much past some papers on DHT attacking hair follicles.

This old study itself already demonstrates an environmental difference in balding areas vs nonbalding.

Okay, but how do you know what is attributable to the environmental factors vs natural cellular aging? Cellular aging happens differently among different people because everyone is so different genetically. There might be gene combinations that cause certain processes to happen slower or faster that are at play in male pattern baldness. Its not contradictory to say environmental factors play a minor role because cellular aging is not proven to be from environmental factors like your suggesting. Old people die from cellular aging regardless of clean air or more veggies. It doesnt stop cellular aging.
DHT is concrete now. You need to prove that environmental factors change androgen levels significantly or AR significantly to change male pattern baldness. I dont think they do. Your immune systems reaction to DHT, or your sensitivity is not under your influence anymore than you can change your diet, and prevent allergies.

"the genetic component is how we respond to inflammation. It is no coincidence that Androgenetic Alopecia is correlated with metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease."
Correlation does not equal causation. Many many studies suggest things that were mere coincidences, and later turned out to be not true. If you cant explain why male pattern baldness directly causes higher cardiovascular disease than I have a hard time believing it does even if some stats draw some vague correlation. Not good enough

"cytokines, hormones, and transcription factors involved with Androgenetic Alopecia and AR"
We know everything involved with this?

Anyways im not going to argue anymore on this because I am not that knowledgeable on biology or medicine to be able to make a scientific argument for my case. I just dont believe some things small studies suggest are always true.
 
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NewUser

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This is supposed to reduce external pressure in scalp tissue? Not seeing the application here.

Superficial vessels drain lymph fluid from the scalp, face and neck into a ring of lymph nodes at the junction of the neck and head.

Lymph-Nodes-of-the-Head-and-Neck1.jpg
 
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abcdefg

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This study has 18 people its super small. It doesnt really tell us anything on why male pattern baldness have hypoxia. It could be triggered by DHT or a thousand other things. Even things that are NOT environmental factors.
Its amazing to me how many women exposed to these same environmental factors do not go bald.
 

Thebaldcel

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Okay, but how do you know what is attributable to the environmental factors vs natural cellular aging? Cellular aging happens differently among different people because everyone is so different genetically. There might be gene combinations that cause certain processes to happen slower or faster that are at play in male pattern baldness. Its not contradictory to say environmental factors play a minor role because cellular aging is not proven to be from environmental factors like your suggesting. Old people die from cellular aging regardless of clean air or more veggies. It doesnt stop cellular aging.
DHT is concrete now. You need to prove that environmental factors change androgen levels significantly or AR significantly to change male pattern baldness. I dont think they do. Your immune systems reaction to DHT, or your sensitivity is not under your influence anymore than you can change your diet, and prevent allergies.

"the genetic component is how we respond to inflammation. It is no coincidence that Androgenetic Alopecia is correlated with metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease."
Correlation does not equal causation. Many many studies suggest things that were mere coincidences, and later turned out to be not true. If you cant explain why male pattern baldness directly causes higher cardiovascular disease than I have a hard time believing it does even if some stats draw some vague correlation. Not good enough

"cytokines, hormones, and transcription factors involved with Androgenetic Alopecia and AR"
We know everything involved with this?

Anyways im not going to argue anymore on this because I am not that knowledgeable on biology or medicine to be able to make a scientific argument for my case. I just dont believe some things small studies suggest are always true.

Of course there are genetic differences in cellular aging. Like I said before, cellular aging is heavily influenced by the environment. Did you know metabolism is one of the main causes of cellular aging? You can adjust your metabolism via calorie intake. Caloric deficits are proven to extend life. At the same time, chronic caloric surplus decreases lifespan by increasing cell division and also increasing metabolism byproducts. Reactive oxygen species are a byproduct of metabolism, which can lead to increased oxidative stress. Intake of antioxidants via diet can help alleviate this. Of course, the natural base antioxidant capacity differs from people to people, but it is also heavily influenced by diet.

Inflammation and toxins will also result in premature cellular aging. Again, this is environmental. Of course nothing will stop the natural aging process, but to say environmental factors have an insignificant impact is erroneous.

There is increasing evidence that gut flora imbalance and western diets play a large role in the increase in autoimmune diseases and allergies. Again, this is environmental. Your gut health is heavily related to mental health and also the immune system. Gut flora is all environmental, and not genetic.


In addition, the evidence for the correlation between metabolic syndrome, CVD, and Androgenetic Alopecia is undeniable now. It is not some small studies drawing vague correlations. You can look up the large amount of studies from accredited journals yourself.

If there is a problem to be solved, then you ask questions; you don't keep denying things or you will get nowhere. The DHT theory is in no way complete; that is why you have keep investigating. Going back to the CVD relation, your can either say "correlation not causation" and abandon the research right there and just wait for an answer, or you can continue investigating.


What if I told you there are studies showing those with Androgenetic Alopecia are more likely to have hypertension? Just a correlation? What if I tell you that studies show those with hypertension have higher serum IL-6 and inflammation, and that IL-6 is the main inflammatory cytokine involved in the hair loss cascade? What if I also tell you that in vitro studies show that IL-6 upregulates androgen receptors? Still just an insignificant correlation?

How about in vitro study demonstrating a greater sensitivity to oxidative stress in balding scalp derma papilla cells vs nonbalding cells? No significance? How about an in vitro study demonstrating that oxidative stress can upregulate TGF-beta, the cytokine responsible for fibrosis? TGF-beta is also part of the androgen cascade, and suppresses hair growth.

If you look into the biochemical implications of this blood flow study, then you will see why this is significant. Optionally, you can continue to dismiss it.
 

NewUser

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This study has 18 people its super small. It doesnt really tell us anything on why male pattern baldness have hypoxia. It could be triggered by DHT or a thousand other things. Even things that are NOT environmental factors.
Its amazing to me how many women exposed to these same environmental factors do not go bald.

A study from 2005 that shows a correlation between faulty hair follicles and heart disease in women.
 

S Foote.

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When @S Foote. speaks of external pressure factors as it applies to favorable growth environment and massage to increase circulation, would a device that creates negative pressure to the scalp achieve what he advocates? Perhaps in the most base of terminology, basically a penis pump for your head, but the effect is the same. Decrease external pressure, draw blood into the area. Might be impossible as maintenance if you have hair but on a balding crown, cupping or some other pump means might be possible.

You need to reduce the internal fluid pressure. To some degree, this is what massage does by putting pressure on the skin you are forcing the fluid out of the tissue. Speaking about body hair having the same reaction, I talk about the effects of plaster casts on hair growth in my article linked above.

This external pressure of the cast on the skin for a period of time, squeezes more fluid out of the tissue reducing the pressure around the follicles. This in my opinion is the reason for the increased body hair growth noted under plaster casts. People speculate about this, but yet again here, the common factor in increasing hair growth, is a reduction in fluid pressure around the follicles.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756205/
 
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