Are the Obama voters happy with the Trillion dollar bill?

[CCS]

He said in his campain he'd do a 300 billion dollar stimulous bill focussing on bridges and roads. Now that he is in, he wanted a 850 billion, but was pushed back to 789 billion by a senate republican fillabuster which 3 republicans let die. Not to worry, not that they got the 789, they are asking for another 400 billion. And every time, they blame the republicans for making the economy worse by slowing the passage of more big bills. If it fails, they will blame the republicans.

How are you guys feeling? Happy about the trillion plus dollars getting spent? Optimistic about it working? It is mostly going to construction of many types of green buildings and global warming research, I heard. Correct me if I'm wrong. And if you are behind on your mortgage payments, you may be paid money to make your payments, at the expense of other people who have been making their payments. So if you wanted the extra couple bathrooms and bedrooms 4 years ago and got the big loan, and can't pay it now, no worries, your frugal neighbor next door can help you out since he has more money from not spending his so much.

 

[cuebald]

It is good that the money is being spent on concrete things rather than what the UK governbent is doing (pissing it away propping up failed banks.. suprise suprise, the execs still award themselves bonuses...)
Gordon Brown says he wants to spend a lot of money doing up schools and hospitals. This I would support, but so far, I've heard nothing on that front..

~$800BN US is a vast amount of money though, one wonders where it is coming from

 

[The Gardener]

If you're angry about Obama's trillion dollar bill, then I assume you are three times as angry about Bush's THREE trillion dollar bill that he tacked onto the deficit.. right?

 

[Cassin]

If you're angry about Obama's trillion dollar bill, then I assume you are three times as angry about Bush's THREE trillion dollar bill that he tacked onto the deficit.. right?

Please cease bringing facts into the conversation.

 

[CCS]

If you're angry about Obama's trillion dollar bill, then I assume you are three times as angry about Bush's THREE trillion dollar bill that he tacked onto the deficit.. right?

That was for national defense. Maybe unneeded though. Many fiscal conservatives on talk radio are very upset about bush. They say he doubled the size of the federal government in the last 8 years, and that now the democrats are trying to one up him. They say it is a competition for the major parties. I'm not upset though.

I would not mind the spendulous bill if it did not have so many slush funds and was just construction of roads and rail systems.

 

[CCS]

It is good that the money is being spent on concrete things rather than what the UK governbent is doing (pissing it away propping up failed banks.. suprise suprise, the execs still award themselves bonuses...)
Gordon Brown says he wants to spend a lot of money doing up schools and hospitals. This I would support, but so far, I've heard nothing on that front..

~$800BN US is a vast amount of money though, one wonders where it is coming from

The US already spent the money trying to Propecia up failing banks, last year. They are still failing. Not loaning money, and just giving bonuses to execs. That's why I'm voting libertarian from now on. I don't agree with everything the libertarians do, but I think we need more in congress. 20% libertarian ought to fix a few things, that way abortion stays legal but we don't get so much government spending.

 

[The Gardener]

That's cool... I have mad respect for Libertarians.

I just think that if one is going to make partisan attacks on Democrats in respect to this crisis, one should equally attack the Republicans as well. For 8 years of an SEC commissioner being asleep at the wheel while our banking system has been turned into one big ENRON.

That's why I'm voting libertarian from now on. I don't agree with everything the libertarians do, but I think we need more in congress.

I TOTALLY agree. But they'll never make it. Nobody gets to congress unless the elites that run this country approve of your agenda. Well, they may let a few token candidates get in for the sake of maintaining a facade of plausible deniability (Kucinich, Ron Paul, et al), but they'll make sure that the media (which the elites control) will paint these outlier candidates as "looney cases" so that the majority of the masses won't ever take them seriously.

I would not mind the spendulous bill if it did not have so many slush funds and was just construction of roads and rail systems.

AMEN brotha. I could not agree MORE. But I'm not yet ready to turn my back on Obama... he's been thrust into the captaincy of a ship in foul weather, and I'm willing to give him some time and space to manouver before criticizing. He's not dumb, and he may have had to throw some bones to Reid/Pelosi in order to consolidate power.

Many fiscal conservatives on talk radio are very upset about bush.

They shouldn't JUST be upset about Bush... fiscal conservatives should be upset about the whole fricking Republican Party:

CCS... you need to understand that the Republican party is the party of corporate fascism. Conservative talk radio is the voice of corporate fascism. The Republican party has been hijacked by neocon corporate fascists that could care less about concepts such as "freedom", "liberty", or "free markets". They wrap themselves in these slogans, but the truth is that the modern day GOP is the party of socialism for the rich, continual curtailment and destruction of civil liberties, indefinite detention for citizens WITHOUT the right of access to legal representation, bailouts for billionaires, not free but RIGGED financial markets, covering up ponzi schemes, helping the rich evade taxes, endless commodity wars for the profit of Halliburton, the oil majors, etc... and they are the party of MASSIVE expansion of central government control, erosion of states rights, erosion of civil rights and personal freedoms, and MASSIVE fiscal deficits. In the words of Dick Cheney himself, "Deficits don't matter".

And to top it all off, the GOP President (Bush) goes live on all channels of domestic television and gives a speech where he tells all of the listeners to swallow all of this without question, saying that "you are either with us or against us".

F*ck that. The Republican party can go f*ck itself up the tailpipe as far as I am concerned, and I have never felt as patriotic in my life as I did the night I cast my vote to throw them out of power. As I have said, my "beef" is not with the Republican party in particular... in better times, and under less corrupt leadership, I would be a die hard Republican myself... but NOT in these times, given the actions and resume of the George W Bush junta. Screw them.

I have GREAT affinity for Libertarian beliefs... but I voted Democrat NOT because I agree with social engineering... but rather because THEY are the lone, sole party in opposition to a total corporate fascist state. They aren't MUCH better than the GOP, but change is incremental. The Libertarians are still too much in the political wilderness to be a force right now, and frankly, a vote for them is tantamount to a vote for the Republicans. Incremental change. The day WILL come when the Libertarians become a MAJOR force... but the anger is not YET there for that to occur.

 

[Doug Douglas]

Amen Gardener! unk:

At this point I think the stimulus bill is much too small to make up for the fact that an over two trillion dollar gap in the economy has opened up, and everything from consumer spending to job creation to housing have been sucked into the chasm of fiscal doom.

I'm afraid we're about to have a decade like the Japanese had during the '90s.

 

[CCS]

Bill Clinton paid off all the debt while the dow jones was peaking?

According to that figure, the United States had NO national debt in 1997. I find that hard to believe. Though he did shut down a lot of military bases. In all fairness, the dow jones took a dive right after bush took office, but that was probably the september 11 attack.

Looks like if you shut down the military, finances do very well until we are attacked. Then when you fight back, finances do poor and civil rights issues arrise.

About civil rights: supposed the CIA uses some form of intelligence technology to find out that you are about to blow up a building. Maybe they do an illegal wire tap and catch you that way, or have spies in your organization. Some social liberals believe you should get a public trial and that the CIA must tell you how they caught you so you can question the legality of it. In doing so, they blow all chances of being able to catch other terrorists with that same technology once the secret is out. Anyone have a solution to this? I believe they should be allowed to hold someone if they have evidence, but must hold them in a modest place, not a dungeon, and should not be allowed to torture or imprison them without a trial. But they should not have to show how they got the information until the war is over. Maybe you should get a military tribunal just to make sure no one person has total power over you.

 

[CCS]

~$800BN US is a vast amount of money though, one wonders where it is coming from

All borrowed or printed up front. They will pay it back later by taxing us all, mostly the rich directly, but the taxes will be passed on to us in the cost of potatoes.

It better stimulate the economy. But I doubt it will be long lasted. Just like the roaring 20's. People will live in excess for a few months, and then crash again but with more debt.

 

[The Gardener]

CCS, you just don't get it.

Enough of this mindless unsustainable greed and consumption and empire. We need some time for introspection. I'm a Libertarian so I believe that our empire was the cause of 9/11, and I believe that the concept of empire is something that most Americans would reject if given a chance to voice opinion in a mandate. I'm tired of America being a tool used by multinational interests to further their own interests and pocketbooks. We all see now that these multinationals don't really give a crap about the US in return. We give our finest, our blood and treasure, to defend their overseas interests, and they reward us by offshoring all of the jobs and capital to Asia and points east... leaving us with a hollowed-out economic base, and, a hollowed out banking capital base.

Time to shake some trees. Time for us to ditch the plastic credit, the plastic Chinese imports, the plastic breast implants, and the "I've got a more expensive BMW than you" bullshit. Time for America to become a humble and hard working community again.

No more madness. We need to take a time out and take care of OUR OWN.

 

[Bryan]

Bill Clinton paid off all the debt while the dow jones was peaking?

According to that figure, the United States had NO national debt in 1997.

That's not what the figure is referring to. It merely shows the budget deficit/surplus for each of those individual years. The national debt is an accumulation of all the individual years together.

 

[Old Baldy]

Not only that Gardener but, as you know, many of the fat cats took our honestly earned savings and invested them into ponzi type schemes!!

Oh no, I don't give them a pass. They're every bit as much to blame for this debacle as anyone IMHO.

Millions of us did what we were "supposed to do" and invest in retirement savings plans and........ you see the result. Dishonest, greedy bastards.

And that's why, philosophically, I don't like bailing out large companies for their stupidity and dishonesty. Realistically speaking, maybe a jolt is needed to get the spiral going up again. But I have serious doubts. Time will tell I guess.

And let's not forget the Congress critters who put pressure on the lenders to loan money to very questionable borrowers.

 

[The Gardener]

And let's not forget the Congress critters who put pressure on the lenders to loan money to very questionable borrowers.

Totally agree.

That idiot Barney Frank should be hauled out in leg irons. And I'm not exaggerating. The fact that he is the sitting House Financial Services committee is a sick joke.

 

[Eureka]

[quote="Old Baldy":aare88zg]And let's not forget the Congress critters who put pressure on the lenders to loan money to very questionable borrowers.

Totally agree.

That idiot Barney Frank should be hauled out in leg irons. And I'm not exaggerating. The fact that he is the sitting House Financial Services committee is a sick joke.[/quote:aare88zg]

I think it's important to have someone of his stature speaking in favor of LGBT rights.

 

[Old Baldy]

What the heck does LGBT have to do with Frank overseeing the financial arm of the House of Representatives??!! :shock:

The guy failed miserably and should be ousted from his position immediately.

Set up a Congressional LGBT committee and let him chair that. Get him out of any financial areas now.

If a baseball pitcher goes 0-2,000,000,000,000, isn't it time to release him?

 

[Eureka]

It's hard to imagine someone who seems as intelligent as he does to completely miss the whole Fannie Mae thing. But he was dismissing it as early as 2000.

Then again, Didn't the whole issue arise because of the Clinton Administration?

 

[Old Baldy]

Gardener would know the answer to those questions better than I do.

Never heard of Frank criticizing loans to questionable borrowers ever.

Clinton might have kept things going from earlier Administrations, maybe accelerated it, but I think this problem was a long time coming IIRC.

 

[The Gardener]

Here's the situation with Barney Frank:

Barney Frank, along with numerous other congresspeople, received substantial campaign contributions from the "public/private" Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac mortgage underwriters.

These underwriters, in effect, finance mortgages by selling them on the open market as bonds that have an implicit backing of the US Government.

Barney Frank, among others, have been ARDENT champions of the work these underwriters do, and in fact have encouraged these underwriters to do MORE business.

In recent years, problems arose at these underwriters. Turns out that Fannie and Freddie have been financing FAR too many mortgages than they have the capital to underwrite. And I'm talking to a factor of 20 or 30. These companies have been running another ponzi scheme. Why? Because they make a ton of profit off these mortgages, and since the government gives them implicit backing, why not just recklessly write as many mortgages as you can and make infinite profits!?

MANY observers, including government regulators, have complained for YEARS that Fannie and Freddie are chernobyls waiting to happen. These regulators were SHUT DOWN by, guess who... Barney Frank. Who, in turn receives his "stipend", erm, I mean "campaign contribution" from Fannie and Freddie.

Gettin' the picture?

You guys need to understand, our entire financial system is rotten to the core. A rotten financial system that has bought and paid for rotten politicians. I don't think most people understand the magnitude of the problem here, this is the Roman Empire, part two we are dealing with.

This is a long piece, but believe me, when you get to the bottom of it, you should have a serious "a ha!" moment.
http://www.truthout.org/013009T

 

[cuebald]

Why are these campaign contributions still allowed to happen? They are bribes plain and simple