American Indian, Rain forest people, DHT blocker diet?

[armandein]

Androgenetic Alopecia: Modern Concepts of Pathogenesis by M. Inaba. Presentation of the author's hypothesis for managing male pattern baldness, based on a combination of dietary habits and the role played by the sebaceous gland in hair loss and regeneration

 

[abcdefg]

How does this theory explain how someone with a terrible diet does not lose any hair at all up to say age 40 since such men do exist? If the answer is genetics then how much of a role could diet be playing?

 

[armandein]

If you look to the so-called AR gene, some men with the gene went bald some did not bald even with the AR gene. There are those who went bald without the gene.

Sure they can point to other 'bald' genes but I subscribe to epigenetics. It's says the environment drives your genes or that gene expression is contigeous with your environment. Most of us see the environment as a simple thing as looking around but it really is a very complex contributor.

Well, diet does form part of your environment but there is little epidemiological study that points to diet.

That mouse study discredits male hormones all together so the 'DHT blocker diet" does not really mean much.

What's left in the equation? Nothing causes male pattern baldness!! :woot:

Why epigenetics only change the gene expression of some, not all, of the scalp hairs as seen in common baldness?

 

[freakout]

Why epigenetics only change the gene expression of some, not all, of the scalp hairs as seen in common baldness?

When full reqrowth was achieved by the transplanted follicles on mice, it suggests that the genetics component of male pattern baldness is not within the follicle.

Hey, I have a question for you. Can you find a study which tells how long a follicle will survive when uprooted from the scalp?

 

[armandein]

I don’t know exactly what is your question, hairs outside our body must be conserved in good conditions, in a petry dish with nutrients to mantain them alive….., but
Dr. Limmer showed a graft survival rate of 92% for grafts kept out of the body for up to 6 hours. This rate decreases 1% per hour for every hour beyond 6 hours.

This is a recent publication about it
http://www.jcasonline.com/article.asp?i ... st=Parsley

 

[freakout]

Thanks for the link!! You did even better than I hoped for I needed it to verify follicle death on Mercado's book.

 

[Thom]

Like I said before, diet has nothing to do with it. My full-blood native american friends all eat horribly and drink a lot of alcohol and they still have full heads of hair. Hell, a couple of them even take steroids.

I wish the bit of Native American in me went to my hair genetics. I may have an Indian card but i look more General Custer than I do from any tribe

Cool Thom!...I get what you are saying....no direct causual effect...I think it has been shown that alcohol is not really a player with male pattern baldness (though it does directly cause cancer!) and I get that they eat like crap as well....Still......I wonder why....out of every ethnic group and even within the same ethnic group there is a segment that (and I am guessing that you believe that it is all about the genetics) is not effected by hairloss? :dunno:
If there is only one segment....it can't just be dumb luck or the spin of the cake wheel....can it?

Is it possible that, from being untouched for thousands of years and consistently eating the same, the Native Americans evolved/adapted that gene that prevents hairloss? So maybe in that respect t is diet but that diet influenced how their descendants would turn out. I am not sure if the Native South Americans lose their hair or not either.

No one jump on me for my lack of knowledge in Biology. I'll be the first to admit I know nothing in that field.

 

[freakout]

Is it possible that, ... the Native Americans evolved/adapted that gene that prevents hairloss? ...

Nice theory! I posted a similar but more generalized argument:

"our genome (genes) contain the records of our ancestors' life's events. Our genes generally protect us from adverse environmental conditions that our ancestors were exposed to". viewtopic.php?p=607759#p607759

Which means that if we engage something new (modern) that's not recorded in our genome, we become susceptible. male pattern baldness is associated with CVDs and prostate issues. If modern influencing factors don't cause balding to some guys, it will affect something else.

 

[freakout]

... graft survival rate of 92% for grafts kept out of the body for up to 6 hours. This rate decreases 1% per hour for every hour beyond 6 hours.
http://www.jcasonline.com/article.asp?i ... st=Parsley

Could learning how to keep a hair alive outside the body help us to keep hairs alive that stay in the body......and just as important...can understanding what happens to a follicle after it is taken from the body help us understand what is happening to those follicles that stay in the body?

I was particular about the time it takes. I'm gathering studies to support Mercado's book.

You already provided one of the most important factors in his book:
... that androgens are involved in blood pressure regulation.

But his is more of a theory based on logic: "why should it not be"

There another study I've read somewhere I was hoping you or armandein can help me find: A Japanese study indicating that, in the scalp of bald men, the blood circulation is 2.6 times lower.

Mercado does not measure his as a multiplier but measured in localized blood pressure in mmHg.

 

[armandein]

The 2.6 figure come from a Denmark study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2715645
Subcutaneous blood flow in early male pattern baldness.
Klemp P, Peters K, Hansted B.
Source
Department of Dermatology, Gentofte Hospital, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Abstract
The subcutaneous blood flow (SBF) was measured by the 133Xe washout method in the scalp of 14 patients with early male pattern baldness. Control experiments were performed in 14 normal haired men matched for age. The SBF in the scalp of the normal individuals was about 10 times higher than previously reported SBF values in other anatomical regions. In patients with early male pattern baldness, SBF was 2.6 times lower than the values found in the normal individuals (13.7 +/- 9.6 vs 35.7 +/- 10.5 ml/100 g/min-1). This difference was statistically significant (p much less than 0.001). A reduced nutritive blood flow to the hair follicles might be a significant event in the pathogenesis of early male pattern baldness.


But this study seems probe that the blood flow is a minor fact in common baldness
New treatment for seborrheic alopecia: the ligature of the arteries of the scalp.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0023.pdf

Also there is another study to consider
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8628793

 

[freakout]

Thanks!! You got three studies with one opposing. They're old but still compelling. ... still reading. Will give my comment later - I think I can explain why one has an opposing vew.

I have another favor to ask: how involved are stress hormones in blood pressure regulation?

 

[freakout]

This one is new (March 2011)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431424

...forest environments reduced stress hormones such as adrenaline and noradrenaline and showed the relaxing effect both in male and female subjects ...

Could this explain how the American Indians keep their hair? Was I correct when I said "If you live in the jungle, it will prevent hair loss? ... did the Androgenetic Alopecia proponent laughed at his mediocrity?

 

[armandein]

habitual walking in forest environments may lower blood pressure

I think that walking in a beach like this could be the same effect

or even don't have a monthly mortage bill...., but regarding male pattern baldness, why affect only certains hairs over the scalp?
Excuse my insistence....

 

[freakout]

but regarding male pattern baldness, why affect only certains hairs over the scalp? Excuse my insistence....

I have two possible scenarios. My problem is this very radical view of genetics that's not accepted by mainstream medicine. This view is not by me, but what I've read from books written by radical biologists.

1. Every cell and organ have a high level of independence to do their tasks but also dependent and listens (thru receptors) to a central command structure - hormones are part of the central structure.

Each cell (50 trillions) is alive as sentient beings in our very definition of life. But the central command structure is also alive as a sentient being - that's us as human beings.

When they communicate, cells refer to their onboard genome (genes) to see if they are programmed to receive the command from the central structure. These processes are fast and cannot be observed under a microscope which is why we reason with empirical data.

This is where I begin to subscribe to a remodeled version of Androgenetic Alopecia: The follicles ARE being programmed to shrink by the central command structure. Note the ARE. When you transplant these follicles to another species, this command is severed and leaves the follicles to rely on its onboard genome and do its default program: to grow hair. Hair follicles cannot communicate with the mouse structure for any command.

The reason you see renegade terminal follicles in the middle of a bald scalp, these follicles lost their ability to listen to the central command structure.

That's one scenario but Im not very inclined to subscribe to. I favor this one:

2. When you see renegade terminal follicles in the middle of a bald scalp, the situation is a freak of nature - follicles attached to an artery rather than an arterioles.

If you're referring to the pattern, arterioles diameter is not uniform throughout the scalp which influences hair diameter.

 

[balder]

http://thepaleodiet.blogspot.com/2009/1 ... -2009.html

A scientific paper our group has written (Hyperinsulinemic Diseases of Civilization: More than Syndrome X) in part addresses male pattern baldness and how a number of studies indicate that high glycemic load diets may set off a hormonal cascade that is characteristic of men with male pattern baldness. To date, no randomized controlled interventions of low glycemic load diets (basically Paleo Diets) have yet been conducted, so we have no human on whether or not a Paleo Diet may be effective in combating male pattern baldness. However, having said this, numerous historical photographs of hunter gatherers rarely if ever depict young or middle age men with male pattern baldness. I have read anecdotal accounts of hunter gatherers who were described in 19th century writings suggesting that premature graying also rarely occurred. I had not heard about the equol story -- thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Best wishes,
Loren Cordain, Ph.D., Professor

 

[armandein]

Thank you Freackout for your response, but I am referring at the common pattern as this photo, where arteries and arterioles don’t have a great influence

On the other hand, your comments are really interesting. It is common see persons with a hair transplant made years ago with this aspect, only a few survived hairs in the center of the frontal head, this could arrange ideas as you present but I think that the truth must be simpler. An example:

 

[freakout]

... I am referring at the common pattern as this photo, where arteries and arterioles don’t have a great influence

You're referring to the "horseshoe pattern". We can pretty much drop the galea because while hair loss occurs at galea most of the time, it does not always follow the final pattern.

The problem with us is we all have the 'silver-bullet' mentality. Most researchers, hence, most people think male pattern baldness is one the same with one set of causative factors. It's not.

male pattern baldness has three causes independent of the others. A subject could be affected by one, two or three causes and he does not even know it. That's the reason why meds are effective for some but not for others.

Stress can cause receding/diffused frontal hair loss with no noticable loss at the back. This usually begins in the upper temporal area.

The 'androgenic' cause can max out at Norwood 5 or 6 or 7. Maybe even "Norwood 8" or DUPA. This type starts as diffused vertex hair loss.

Sebum issues can only max out at Norwood Type 5 or 6 - not 7. You know this already - you're the sebum expert This could start as diffused as well as patches.

Mercado's book lists several factors that influence the horsehoe pattern. One of his arguments is something I've never read anywhere else. I don't know how to put it without violating copyright because it took about a third of the book just to explain it.

His arguments may explain the pattern in the different causes of male pattern baldness but not for sebum which is not covered by his book. It has something to do with the class structure of organs so we will have to traverse into human physiology, more specifically, neurophysiology and how it is affected by the immediated environment and modern behavior.

 

[bigentries]

Could this explain how the American Indians keep their hair? Was I correct when I said "If you live in the jungle, it will prevent hair loss? ... did the Androgenetic Alopecia proponent laughed at his mediocrity?

But America is such a diverse continent, there were Amerindians in every ecosystem before the Spanish arrival. From the Coldest climates in the north of Canada to deserts in Northern Mexico

 

[freakout]

But America is such a diverse continent, there were Amerindians in every ecosystem before the Spanish arrival. From the Coldest climates in the north of Canada to deserts in Northern Mexico

I posted my opnion on forest environment on another thread.
I was suggesting that lowered levels of stress hormones and blood pressure WERE the norm when humans evolved.

Therefore, the levels in the citeis are chronically high. What surprised me is we don't even have to eat anything from the forest. Just doing the workouts there and breathing the forest air made the difference.

I can't for the life of me discount the involvement of stress in male pattern baldness.

 

[freakout]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2715645
Subcutaneous blood flow in early male pattern baldness.

But this study seems probe that the blood flow is a minor fact in common baldness. New treatment for seborrheic alopecia: the ligature of the arteries of the scalp.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0023.pdf

Also there is another study to consider
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8628793

armandein, idontwanttobebalding, where else can you find a sample of non-bald and balding men with a 100% correlation? Even more, two studies with the same results.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... jnma00008-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2715645

This two studies on their own are very compelling. Apparently, Mercado was not the first to present a study similar to these. (These references are not found in Mercado's book references)

The difference however, he has explanations to why these occur/occured in balding men and a set of solution (a difficult set of measures) I haven't read anywhere else.

The third study,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 8-0023.pdf
had a seemingly discenting opinion on blood flow. The results of this third study, Ligature of the Arteries of the Scalp, is surprisingly effective. It seems to rival the efficacy of Rogaine.

BUT, this process did not necessarily cut blood flow, it merely caused a rerouting.

Let me throw a question to both of you: When the arteries where ligatured
what else was affected other than blood flow?