American Indian, Rain forest people, DHT blocker diet?

[armandein]

Interesting links
Baroreceptors....

In my opinion, not based in double blind placebo studies is that the blood irrigation of bald and nobald scalp is similar.

 

[freakout]

In my opinion, not based in double blind placebo studies is that the blood irrigation of bald and nobald scalp is similar.

Whoa. I thought I saw a real scientist in there. Is that the reason for your dissenting opinion?

Those were not drug experiments, hence, did not involve placebos and did not require a blind approach.

The control group had the base measurements versus the test subjects.
In the first experiment, half of 18 men (9) were the controll group.
In the second experiment, half of the 28 men (14) were the control group.

The results cannot be ignored because 100% of the test subjects in both experiments showed significantly lower measurements.

 

[freakout]

Let me throw a question to both of you: When the arteries where ligatured what else was affected other than blood flow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroreceptor

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a

Not quite but the topics in the links also plays a significant role in vertex diffusion. For now, we're on frontal recession and diffusion.

 

[freakout]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroreceptor

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a

Is that it? No more tries?

 

[Thom]

This one is new (March 2011)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431424

...forest environments reduced stress hormones such as adrenaline and noradrenaline and showed the relaxing effect both in male and female subjects ...

Could this explain how the American Indians keep their hair? Was I correct when I said "If you live in the jungle, it will prevent hair loss? ... did the Androgenetic Alopecia proponent laughed at his mediocrity?

Well you have to take into account Native Americans of the West and South West who lived in desert environments so i don't think this would be the cause. As far as I know, those who migrated over the land bridge didn't come from those types of environments either.

 

[Thom]

Nevermind, I just read the post where someone made my same point. Damn my inability to focus! I tend to skim through posts haha.

 

[freakout]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431424

Just so they would know, I suggested that any natural environment such as the forest may lower stress hormones and blood pressure AND those levels could be THE normal levels when humans evolved.

If those levels were normal, the levels in the cities must be chronically high. I'm also suggesting the culprit in male pattern baldness is in the cities.

At least we both suggested balding men don't have the genes that protect them from male pattern baldness

 

[Thom]

Very true! I did see a Native American man the other day who was balding though and I certainly wasn't used to it. Of course he had to have some European in him because their are probably like 100 full blood Natives left haha. This man looked at least half though and had every other characteristic such as no facial hair whatsoever.

The gene might be catching up.

 

[freakout]

Even if the genes are catching up, there is still reason to think that it's an epigene (epigenetic trait).

Here's why: Right after puberty, all men including those with the supposed 'bald' genes have increased levels of androgens and DHT to levels 500 to 900 TIMES that of women (if i remember correctly).

The thing is, in many cases male pattern baldness does not occur after a decade, more of less. By that time, presdisposed men begin to develop male pattern baldness at alarming rates as if something triggered it. That supposed trigger occured right before male pattern baldness began, NOT right after puberty.

androgens + genes + trigger = male pattern baldness.

 

[Bryan]

Even if the genes are catching up, there is still reason to think that it's an epigene (epigenetic trait).

Here's why: Right after puberty, all men including those with the supposed 'bald' genes have increased levels of androgens and DHT to levels 500 to 900 TIMES that of women (if i remember correctly).

I don't think you remember correctly. Men have more androgens than women, but I don't think they have THAT much more.

The thing is, in many cases male pattern baldness does not occur after a decade, more of less. By that time, presdisposed men begin to develop male pattern baldness at alarming rates as if something triggered it. That supposed trigger occured right before male pattern baldness began, NOT right after puberty.

I've already explained that to you over and over and over: the hair follicles' response (sensitivity, to use a different word) to androgens increases over time. That's why it can sometimes take decades for balding to start, along with the fact that damage to hair follicles is probably cumulative.

 

[freakout]

In many cases male pattern baldness does not occur after a decade, more of less. By that time, presdisposed men begin to develop male pattern baldness at alarming rates as if something triggered it. That supposed trigger occured right before male pattern baldness began, NOT right after puberty.

androgens + genes + trigger = male pattern baldness

Let's see what Thom thinks. What say you Thom?

 

[bigentries]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431424

Just so they would know, I suggested that any natural environment such as the forest may lower stress hormones and blood pressure AND those levels could be THE normal levels when humans evolved.

If those levels were normal, the levels in the cities must be chronically high. I'm also suggesting the culprit in male pattern baldness is in the cities.

At least we both suggested balding men don't have the genes that protect them from male pattern baldness

But we have lots of evidence of baldness in the past. From sculptures of Greek Philosophers to paintings of rural Europe

And if we want to go that far, baldness in Africans is also rampant. I don't know the exact ancestry of Jacob Zuma, but he is pretty bald

 

[freakout]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21431424

But we have lots of evidence of baldness in the past. From sculptures of Greek Philosophers to paintings of rural Europe.

And if we want to go that far, baldness in Africans is also rampant. I don't know the exact ancestry of Jacob Zuma, but he is pretty bald

Yes, but Greek civilization was the earliest form of modern society from which our current model is based. Rural Europeans, otoh, were not hunter-gatherers anymore while Jacob Zuma lived in a society transformed by British settlers into a Greek model decades before Zuma was born.

Old documentary films of hunter-gatherer African tribes showed only few old men developed male pattern baldness. We may see many African societies as a primitive society but there is a difference with their lifestyle today compared to virgin hunter-gatherers.

The Japanese were already affected by male pattern baldness before the Americans came but there was a vast increased after they instituted wholesale changes in Japanese society after WWII. Did the American aggravate the same contributing factor of male pattern baldness OR did they introduce another?

Question, bigentries: Are you open to the idea that male pattern baldness has some level of environmental influence? This study on forest environments where stress hormones and blood pressure were reduced says a lot because both stress and high blood pressure are associated with hair loss.

 

[freakout]

I Broke the Mystery of Male Pattern Baldness

Epidemiological studies have shown that diseases associated with insulin resistance and coronary artery disease are more frequently observed in men with androgenetic alopecia

There have been a few studies similar to this in the past. Note the words "more frequently observed".

The study proves association but not causation of one condition by the other. but it implies a common contributing factor. For one, many non-bald men have the same conditions.

To prove causation, a high degree of association and its absence on the control subjects must be found.

and, yes, the study does imply the involvement of lifestyle factors in male pattern baldness.