15% Minoxidil Gone - What's Next for You?

[zen68]

Hey Bryan,

Do you have any prediction that perhaps the standard Rogaine or Kirkland 5% Minoxidil / PG liquid compounds will work well enough to maintain any gains in regrowth I made with the 15%/azelaic acid solutions?

Also I fear I might experience a shedding phase upon replacing my evening treatment with standard Rogaine 5% liquid. I am hoping that theoretically at least this would be unlikely.

BTW I am doing the other "2" of the "Big 3" regularly (finpecia 1mg per day and "Nizral" 2% Ketokonazole shampoo 3X per week).

Thanks!

 

[azuri]

im in the same sitch as you.. but in the end, regardless of what people think/predict, the final decision falls on you, and with little choice but to jump in the deep end and swim. Unless some other company introduces a 15% minoxidil but if not then your choices will remain minimal. either go back to 5% and see if you shed or if you dont, then you will almost certainly lose ground in the coming weeks.

Using 5% will be better than using 0%

 

[Bryan]

Hey Bryan,

Do you have any prediction that perhaps the standard Rogaine or Kirkland 5% Minoxidil / PG liquid compounds will work well enough to maintain any gains in regrowth I made with the 15%/azelaic acid solutions?

Obviously I can't answer such a question with any real certainty, but I continue to be puzzled that people are so interested in 15% versions of minoxidil despite a TOTAL lack of interest by Upjohn in making such versions, and a TOTAL lack of interest in even bothering to test them in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals. I suspect it's because they know from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

 

[Bryan]

I have the full length article of both studies.... In 16 weeks, the foam created an average of 20 hairs per cm1, while the liquid more than double that at the 16 week mark. However... at the two year mark, the effectiveness of the liquid slowly tapered off and stabilized at the about 20 hairs per cm1. The foam study never went past the 16 week mark, so we don't know how effective it is after that. The solution is the one with the most articles and studies done.

Where did you see that study? How did you obtain it? What exactly do you mean by "cm1"?

I'm re-posting the above, for the poster "franky123"! I'm very interested in getting your answers to those three questions that I asked you before, and you may have missed them a couple of pages ago!

 

[Jacob]

Obviously I can't answer such a question with any real certainty, but I continue to be puzzled that people are so interested in 15% versions of minoxidil despite a TOTAL lack of interest by Upjohn in making such versions, and a TOTAL lack of interest in even bothering to test them in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals. I suspect it's because they know from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

Again, why doesn't Dr. Proctor do such things with his products and/or ingredients..even the "mysterious ingredients"? The answer is as you said there: I suspect it's because he knows from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

 

[Bryan]

Again, why doesn't Dr. Proctor do such things with his products and/or ingredients..even the "mysterious ingredients"?

He _does_ do such things with his own products! Numerous times over the years he's talked about various problems he's had with Proxiphen, in which he was forced to adjust or modify its specific ingredients because of some problem that a couple of them were having together. You'd know all about that, if you bothered to read him over the years! As it is, you obviousy don't have a CLUE what you're talking about!

 

[Jacob]

Again, why doesn't Dr. Proctor do such things with his products and/or ingredients..even the "mysterious ingredients"?

He _does_ do such things with his own products! Numerous times over the years he's talked about various problems he's had with Proxiphen, in which he was forced to adjust or modify its specific ingredients because of some problem that a couple of them were having together. You'd know all about that, if you bothered to read him over the years! As it is, you obviousy don't have a CLUE what you're talking about!

No he does _not_ do the things you whine that others should be doing. Your quote above: "in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals". Proctor has done no such thing after over 20 years.

I'm sure Dr. Lee and any other company/Doctor/ceo would say the same thing- that they've tested things themselves..tweeked 'em over the years..etc. I _have_ been reading him, as well as you, over the years..so I have more than a CLUE what I'm talking about.

Again..the part you snipped...The answer is as you said there: I suspect it's because he knows from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

 

[Bryan]

I'm sure Dr. Lee and any other company/Doctor/ceo would say the same thing- that they've tested things themselves..tweeked 'em over the years..etc. I _have_ been reading him, as well as you, over the years..so I have more than a CLUE what I'm talking about.

Just curious: were you reading alt.baldspot starting in 1995, like I was?

Again..the part you snipped...The answer is as you said there: I suspect it's because he knows from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

I don't think you believe that, any more than I do.

 

[Xandroxuser]

I'm sure Dr. Lee and any other company/Doctor/ceo would say the same thing- that they've tested things themselves..tweeked 'em over the years..etc. I _have_ been reading him, as well as you, over the years..so I have more than a CLUE what I'm talking about.

Just curious: were you reading alt.baldspot starting in 1995, like I was?

Again..the part you snipped...The answer is as you said there: I suspect it's because he knows from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

I don't think you believe that, any more than I do.

This dialogue is interesting and important - but what about Dr Klein - for us non-PG people? Why Dr Klein? What Dr Klein products for non-PG/sensitive scalp people who are looking for a replacent for 15% minoxidil/azeliac acid.

I wouldn't like my previous post on this to be totally obscured by the recent activity on this thread. Who has experience and/or evidence that Dr Klein would be better than Rogaine 5% foam?

Readers will recall that Dr Proctor is no good for non-PG people.

 

[Jacob]

I'm sure Dr. Lee and any other company/Doctor/ceo would say the same thing- that they've tested things themselves..tweeked 'em over the years..etc. I _have_ been reading him, as well as you, over the years..so I have more than a CLUE what I'm talking about.

Just curious: were you reading alt.baldspot starting in 1995, like I was?

First...the part you snipped out: No he does _not_ do the things you whine that others should be doing. Your quote above: "in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals". Proctor has done no such thing after over 20 years

It matters not when I started reading Dr. Proctor. The studies..etc etc etc...are not there.

Again..the part you snipped...The answer is as you said there: I suspect it's because he knows from experience that there's nothing to be gained from doing that, and using ordinary 5% Rogaine is as good as it gets.

I don't think you believe that, any more than I do.

I believe it 100%. He'd have the evidence to prove otherwise..if he had it. You know..the same evidence you requested in this thread, and as you've been requesting for years from others.

 

[Bryan]

Just curious: were you reading alt.baldspot starting in 1995, like I was?

First...the part you snipped out: No he does _not_ do the things you whine that others should be doing. Your quote above: "in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals". Proctor has done no such thing after over 20 years

It matters not when I started reading Dr. Proctor. The studies..etc etc etc...are not there.

What do you think I was "whining" about, above? :dunno:

And why do you think "it matters not" when you started reading Dr. Proctor? Are you unable (or afraid) to answer that question honestly? Would an honest answer prove that you know so very little about Dr. Proctor's products, as I suspect?

I don't think you believe that, any more than I do.

I believe it 100%. He'd have the evidence to prove otherwise..if he had it. You know..the same evidence you requested in this thread, and as you've been requesting for years from others.

I rarely request such evidence from others. I have no idea what you're talking about, and neither do you.

 

[Jacob]

Just curious: were you reading alt.baldspot starting in 1995, like I was?

First...the part you snipped out: No he does _not_ do the things you whine that others should be doing. Your quote above: "in clinical studies and publish the results in medical journals". Proctor has done no such thing after over 20 years

It matters not when I started reading Dr. Proctor. The studies..etc etc etc...are not there.

What do you think I was "whining" about, above? :dunno:

And why do you think "it matters not" when you started reading Dr. Proctor? Are you unable (or afraid) to answer that question honestly? Would an honest answer prove that you know so very little about Dr. Proctor's products, as I suspect?

Bryan....quit grasping for straws. I was at alt.baldspot probably at least 10 years ago. If you want to find something Dr. Proctor said that is going to prove me wrong..from prior to whenever I was there...go for it. Provide the kind of "evidence" on his products/ingredients you keep whining about others to show....or stop being a hypocrite.

I don't think you believe that, any more than I do.

I believe it 100%. He'd have the evidence to prove otherwise..if he had it. You know..the same evidence you requested in this thread, and as you've been requesting for years from others.

I rarely request such evidence from others. I have no idea what you're talking about, and neither do you.

"Rarely". That adds up to plenty. Even if it were just once..and we all know it's quite often...for you to request such evidence..well..it's pathetic. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[franky123]

I have the full length article of both studies.... In 16 weeks, the foam created an average of 20 hairs per cm1, while the liquid more than double that at the 16 week mark. However... at the two year mark, the effectiveness of the liquid slowly tapered off and stabilized at the about 20 hairs per cm1. The foam study never went past the 16 week mark, so we don't know how effective it is after that. The solution is the one with the most articles and studies done.

Where did you see that study? How did you obtain it? What exactly do you mean by "cm1"?

I did miss that, theres some back and forth action going on and I just skipped through the whole thing.
The articles are on pubmed, but i have access to the full length articles via my schools database, i remember reading it thoroughly to make sure i didn't miss anything.

I meant to type 1 cm^2( as in squared, thats the area). Im sure if you do a google search, someone posted the full article somewhere. Spend a little time and google and im sure you'd get it

 

[franky123]

There was a question about why the big pharmas haven't produced 15% minoxidil.

Well i can tell you thats because of three reasons( i had a debate with a friend that works for a big biotech company).

1. Money. These company's are here to make money. Now, im sure that some companies might have even come up with a great treatment for hair loss, BUT, if they can't patent it, then they won't produce it. Plain and Simple. Happens all the time.

2. In order to get a patent on something, you have to show that its something NEW, or at the very least, if you have alot of money, improve upon it, for example, new delivery system for more effective absorption( minoxidil foam), less irritation, time release device...etc Big companies spend alot of money on this area, so they can get that patent. Making 15% minoxidil, i can safely assume, doesn't fit into that category, simply because its a higher concentration of a product thats already out there, and since it doesn't really grow new hairs. If pfizer, the new owner of minoxidil, would have made a 10% minoxidil with their foam delivery system, then it would have worked.

3. Cost. Big pharmas have to know that its gonna work, because they have to spend YEARS doing clinical research, which is EXTREMELY expensive( were talking about billions with a capital B). If they believe that the new product won't generate enough new sales, then its simply not worth the cost anymore to produce it.

Now, having said all this, im gonna tell you guys that 15% minoxidil isn't gonna give you all your hair back. I do think that 5% was the upper limit, at least IMO. However, the 15% did make the fine hairs thicker, not grow NEW hair, but just thicker, which is great for thinning hair. I would say with a great degree of confidence, that it most likely would not grow hair thats already gone, or grow new hair compared to the 5%. So if you have coverage but thinning, then your the guy. If your on the norwood pattern, odds are it won't be any better than 5%.

Its not the end of the world that its gone, but it sucks.

 

[Green_Jellybean]

I continue to be puzzled that people are so interested in 15% versions of minoxidil

I'm interested in 15% for the simple fact that it produced very noticeable results for me. I used 5% minoxidil every day for close to seven years and my hair went from bad to worse (yes I was also using other products as well such as finasteride). I spoke to a local doctor who suggested trying the higher varieties - I used Doctor Lees and then MinoxidilMax for almost two years and was very pleased. I regained almost all of the ground I lost since I've been suffering from hair loss.

I've no idea what I'm going to do now.

 

[Bryan]

I have the full length article of both studies....[...]

Where did you see that study? How did you obtain it? What exactly do you mean by "cm1"?

I did miss that, theres some back and forth action going on and I just skipped through the whole thing.
The articles are on pubmed, but i have access to the full length articles via my schools database, i remember reading it thoroughly to make sure i didn't miss anything.

Please give me the full references for the study (or studies), so I can look them up and read them myself at my local medical library. Names and dates of the medical journal(s), titles of the studies, page numbers, etc. Thanks!

 

[franky123]

Where's the trust. You don't believe me?????? lol

Just kidding, here you go
First one-----> A randomized clinical trial of 5% topical minoxidil versus 2% minoxidil and placebo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men

Second One -----> A mutlicenter randomized placebo controlled double blind clinical trial of novel formulation of 5% minoxidil topical foam versus placebo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men


Im sure if you google, youll find the full article somewhere, specially the first one. That should be a free article.

 

[franky123]

I continue to be puzzled that people are so interested in 15% versions of minoxidil

I'm interested in 15% for the simple fact that it produced very noticeable results for me. I used 5% minoxidil every day for close to seven years and my hair went from bad to worse (yes I was also using other products as well such as finasteride). I spoke to a local doctor who suggested trying the higher varieties - I used Doctor Lees and then MinoxidilMax for almost two years and was very pleased. I regained almost all of the ground I lost since I've been suffering from hair loss.

I've no idea what I'm going to do now.

Thats interesting, the 5% did nothing, and the 15% did. Where you using generic kirkland minoxidil, the foam?????

 

[azuri]

the only real question i have is why dont the big guns like rogaine dont introduce a stronger formula with the added benefits a/acids/ retinol.. i mean, all they need to do is keep an eye on these forums and "listen" to what people are saying and fkn wanting. i suppose what you wrote in your previous post makes good sense but i think its only a matter of time until one of the giants of this industry come forward and bring out something like lee did.

Lets move forward and face the facts,, 5% is becoming a thing of the past and creating false hope for hairloss sufferers.. as far as monix is concerned.

 

[franky123]

Because theyre a gimmick and don't do anything. Retinol, in general is pretty weak, thats why its OTC as opposed to tretinoin which is a RX.
AA has no effect in vivo.

Making higher % minoxidil would be nice, but they won't do it for the reason i posted before.

BTW, if you dont believe me, you can buy AA or retinol and add it to your regimen, you'll see that it does nothing.