15% Minoxidil Gone - What's Next for You?

[zen68]

I was so excited to discover the 15% minoxidil/ azelaic acid formulas from PIS and MM and have experienced significant results in just months - well beyond my expectations.

I don't want to lose what I have gained! I am wondering what's next for the rest of you? Is this "Nanoxidil" stuff gonna be the next best thing? OR do you think there will be 15% minoxidil available again from different sources? I just want to have a plan when I run out.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys.

 

[Bryan]

There's no proof that 15% topical minoxidil does any better than ordinary 5% minoxidil like Rogaine. There's no proof that topical azelaic acid even works AT ALL as a 5a-reductase inhibitor, lowering DHT. If I were you, I'd just use ordinary Rogaine as an easily-obtainable substitute for both of the above.

 

[Jacob]

Bryan..whenever you post things like this my eyes just roll out. While what you may be saying is true..the same exact things could be said of Proxiphen and the other Proctor products/ingreds/combos. There is no proof that they work any better than plain minoxidil.

 

[zen68]

There's no proof that 15% topical minoxidil does any better than ordinary 5% minoxidil like Rogaine. There's no proof that topical azelaic acid even works AT ALL as a 5a-reductase inhibitor, lowering DHT. If I were you, I'd just use ordinary Rogaine as an easily-obtainable substitute for both of the above.

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for your reply. I am confused however as it is my understanding that Azelaic Acid has been shown to be a fairly stable and potent inhibitor of DHT production in the scalp. Here is some info I found on that:

Azelaic acid may be useful as a hair growth stimulant. A research report by Stamatiadis in 1988 suggested that azelaic acid (and combinations of it and zinc ion and vitamin B6) was a strong type I 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) inhibitor. The enzyme 5-AR (both types I and II) convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has been shown to contribute to male prostate enlargement (benign prostatic hyperplasia, BPH) and to damage hair follicles.

Abstract of Stamatiadis' 1988 study:

Br J Dermatol 1988 Nov;119(5):627-632 Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid.

Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I

Laboratoire de Biochimie B, Hopital Necker-Enfants-Malades, Paris, France.

The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

PMID: 3207614, UI: 89087983

The reservations one might have regarding the Stamatiadis study are (1) that the study was done on rats, (2) that is was done on prostate tissue (and not on hair tissue) and (3) that it was done "in vitro" (essentially means, "not in a living organism"). Cells in living tissue generally show a considerable ability to protect themselves from invasion. Treating pure 5-AR directly with azelaic acid in a lab flask is somewhat different from exposing the living cell to azelaic acid. Nevertheless, what happens "in vitro" often reveals clues as to what might happen "in vivo" (in a living organism).

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss-info/azelaic-acid.htm

 

[Jacob]

More evidence there than Dr. Proctor has ever produced.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan..whenever you post things like this my eyes just roll out. While what you may be saying is true..the same exact things could be said of Proxiphen and the other Proctor products/ingreds/combos. There is no proof that they work any better than plain minoxidil.

As I've already explained to you over and over and over, there's no similarity between what I said above (about 15% minoxidil and azelaic acid) and Dr. Proctor's products. He's been using the ingredients in those things for DECADES, and has verified that they work; they aren't just substances with theoretical function like the ones mentioned by the original poster.

 

[Jacob]

Bryan..whenever you post things like this my eyes just roll out. While what you may be saying is true..the same exact things could be said of Proxiphen and the other Proctor products/ingreds/combos. There is no proof that they work any better than plain minoxidil.

As I've already explained to you over and over and over, there's no similarity between what I said above (about 15% minoxidil and azelaic acid) and Dr. Proctor's products. He's been using the ingredients in those things for DECADES, and has verified that they work; they aren't just substances with theoretical function like the ones mentioned by the original poster.

He has verified that they work? Where's the evidence? I don't care if he's been using them for CENTURIES. That is not evidence..the kind you keep asking of others to provide.

 

[Bryan]

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for your reply. I am confused however as it is my understanding that Azelaic Acid has been shown to be a fairly stable and potent inhibitor of DHT production in the scalp. Here is some info I found on that:

Azelaic acid may be useful as a hair growth stimulant. A research report by Stamatiadis in 1988 suggested that azelaic acid (and combinations of it and zinc ion and vitamin B6) was a strong type I 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) inhibitor. [...]

Abstract of Stamatiadis' 1988 study:

Br J Dermatol 1988 Nov;119(5):627-632 Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid.

Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I

The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

Look at the part of the sentence at the end of the Stamatiadis abstract which I've been careful to underline for emphasis! Shockingly, nobody ever seems to have noticed that the ability of topical azelaic acid to inhibit 5a-reductase has NEVER been confirmed in vivo; not in humans, not even in laboratory animals like mice, rats, or guinea pigs. Until that actually happens, I don't think it's wise just to assume that topical azelaic acid is going to serve as a worthwhile agent to fight male pattern baldness.

 

[Bryan]

He has verified that they work? Where's the evidence? I don't care if he's been using them for CENTURIES. That is not evidence..the kind you keep asking of others to provide.

If you have some kind of personal problem with Dr. Proctor and just can't believe anything he says for God-knows-what-reason, that's YOUR problem.

 

[Xandroxuser]

Bryan: am I right in thinking that Dr Proctor's products are not suitable for those with with a PG allergy? I was led to Dr Lee, way back before Rogaine foam, because of my PG allergy - after Rogaine 2%, then 5%, then allergy. For a while, I used Lee's 5% Xandrox with AA. Then - on his advice - moved to 5% Xandrox (with AA) and 15% Xandrox (with AA).

My view is that on each change of regimen, I gained a little, and generally maintained, thereafter - for a decade, or so, now.

With the closure of Dr Lee - and now the closure of all 15% AA, I am left in a quandary. For the next couple of years I could alternate between the minoxidil solutions 'new' Xandrox 5 and 15; and minoxidil max 5 and 15 Dualgen (from my existing supplies) - or, simply, switch to rogaine foam, now.

As you would well appreciate, if a regimen seems to be working one becomes psychologically dependent upon it - whatever the 'irrational' elements in this. I was, certainly, dependent on Dr Lee's advice and his products.

I would appreciate your view. Do you think the 5% Rogaine foam would NOT lead to loss of any gains from Dr Lee's products? If 15% is no better than 5%; and, if, AA is useless, this might seem to follow.

Many, of course, do report losses in circumstances such as these, which is spooky.

 

[Jacob]

He has verified that they work? Where's the evidence? I don't care if he's been using them for CENTURIES. That is not evidence..the kind you keep asking of others to provide.

If you have some kind of personal problem with Dr. Proctor and just can't believe anything he says for God-knows-what-reason, that's YOUR problem.

Why would ANYone just believe him, w/out any evidence???? You CONSTANTLY b**ch and moan about others(in this thread is an example), including other companies and doctors(Dr. Lee comes to mind), not having evidence..you don't "just believe"...and yet you "just believe" Dr. Proctor. What a bunch of bullshill'n.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan: am I right in thinking that Dr Proctor's products are not suitable for those with with a PG allergy?

Correct. Dr. Proctor uses propylene glycol in a lot of his products, so for anyone with a significant allergy to propylene glycol, it probably wouldn't be appropriate to use those products.

I was led to Dr Lee, way back before Rogaine foam, because of my PG allergy - after Rogaine 2%, then 5%, then allergy. For a while, I used Lee's 5% Xandrox with AA. Then - on his advice - moved to 5% Xandrox (with AA) and 15% Xandrox (with AA).

My view is that on each change of regimen, I gained a little, and generally maintained, thereafter - for a decade, or so, now.

With the closure of Dr Lee - and now the closure of all 15% AA, I am left in a quandary. For the next couple of years I could alternate between the minoxidil solutions 'new' Xandrox 5 and 15; and minoxidil max 5 and 15 Dualgen (from my existing supplies) - or, simply, switch to rogaine foam, now.

As you would well appreciate, if a regimen seems to be working one becomes psychologically dependent upon it - whatever the 'irrational' elements in this. I was, certainly, dependent on Dr Lee's advice and his products.

I would appreciate your view. Do you think the 5% Rogaine foam would NOT lead to loss of any gains from Dr Lee's products? If 15% is no better than 5%; and, if, AA is useless, this might seem to follow.

There are a lot of issues here, none of which I have any easy answers for; not the least of which is the claim often cited on hairloss sites that Rogaine Foam is supposedly "more effective" than the standard Rogaine solution. That appears to come just from advertising claims on TV; I've yet to see any actual clinical studies showing that the Foam is more effective than the solution. But if you're allergic to propylene glycol, you may not have any other choice than to switch to the Foam, and these other (separate) issues like whether or not 15% solutions of minoxidil are more effective than the standard 5% versions are irrelevant! :dunno:

 

[Bryan]

Why would ANYone just believe him, w/out any evidence???? You CONSTANTLY b**ch and moan about others(in this thread is an example), including other companies and doctors(Dr. Lee comes to mind), not having evidence..you don't "just believe"...and yet you "just believe" Dr. Proctor. What a bunch of bullshill'n.

All you're doing is boring me.

 

[Xandroxuser]

But if you're allergic to propylene glycol, you may not have any other choice than to switch to the Foam, and these other (separate) issues like whether or not 15% solutions of minoxidil are more effective than the standard 5% versions are irrelevant![/quote]

Bryan, I appreciate your comments - but given that my present stock of 15% minoxidl with 5% AA (and 5%, similar) would last me me for another two years - given the accuracy of the two year expiry date, my - possibly irrational - feeling is to stick with it, phasing in Rogaine foam in a couple of years or so. [Assuming nothing similar to Xandrox emerges in that time frame).

I am not happy that it is not Richard Lee's stuff. It is the minoxidil solutions xandrox about which I have posted elsewhere and minoxidil.max product (Dualgen). But, I think my preference to stick with the nearest to what I have been using - for as long as I can - says a lot about the appeal of the 15% - notwithstanding your view and the view of other posters that it is no better than 5%.

Your comment - and others - would be appreciated.

I appreciate that your view that the foam may be less effective than the liquid may be linked to your view that propylene glycol, inter alia, adds to 'effectiveness'. But, as you rightly say, that is irrelevant for those allergic to PG.

 

[Bryan]

If you already have a two-year supply of the other stuff and want to use it --- sure, go ahead and use it.

 

[franky123]

I have the full length article of both studies.... In 16 weeks, the foam created an average of 20 hairs per cm1, while the liquid more than double that at the 16 week mark. However... at the two year mark, the effectiveness of the liquid slowly tapered off and stabilized at the about 20 hairs per cm1. The foam study never went past the 16 week mark, so we don't know how effective it is after that. The solution is the one with the most articles and studies done.

The SD in terms of mean hair count for both studies were around 20( meaning average non-velus hair grown is 20-60 at the 16 week mark for the solution, and 0-40 for the foam).

IMO, i think the thing that causes the foam to work less than the solution is because of not only the lack of propylene glycol, but the fact that most gets on your hair as well( both of which could be easily remedied). The foam has a very nice cosmetic effect, which give the perception that its working, while the solution has a negative cosmetic effect( makes your hair look frail), which makes it seem like its not working.

If you use the solution at night, and foam in the morning, you should be fine.

 

[Bryan]

I have the full length article of both studies.... In 16 weeks, the foam created an average of 20 hairs per cm1, while the liquid more than double that at the 16 week mark. However... at the two year mark, the effectiveness of the liquid slowly tapered off and stabilized at the about 20 hairs per cm1. The foam study never went past the 16 week mark, so we don't know how effective it is after that. The solution is the one with the most articles and studies done.

Where did you see that study? How did you obtain it? What exactly do you mean by "cm1"?

 

[Xandroxuser]

If you already have a two-year supply of the other stuff and want to use it --- sure, go ahead and use it.

Bryan, many thanks for your response. I guess that just leaves the possibility of Dr Klein. I note that in many of his products, he includes 0.1% Hydrocortisone - to deal with irritation, presumably. This would put me off using those products. Also, I don't want to use retin-A. But I did see, somewhere, I think, that Dr Klein can do non-PG, if required. Is this true? Any non-PG Dr Klein fans out there? Can you help? Are such products likely to be superior to Rogaine foam, for someone who has used 15% minoxidil and 5% azeliac acid for years?

 

[Bryan]

I don't know anything about Dr. Klein or if he has a "non-PG" version of minoxidil, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did. Let's see if anyone else knows something about it...

 

[Jacob]

Why would ANYone just believe him, w/out any evidence???? You CONSTANTLY b**ch and moan about others(in this thread is an example), including other companies and doctors(Dr. Lee comes to mind), not having evidence..you don't "just believe"...and yet you "just believe" Dr. Proctor. What a bunch of bullshill'n.

All you're doing is boring me.

That's the best you can do? :dunno: I'm not surprised.

Again...where is the evidence/proof?