wont use finasteride... what should I start with?

[viperfish]

What about people who are not going bald? Their level of DHT is naturally reduced and they seem to survive, what makes you think that they are in less danger of low DHT levels than us taking the pil?

Andrew

I don't think their levels of DHT are naturally reduced. They just have less predetermined sites where dht can attach itself.

 

[Demlotcrew]

What about people who are not going bald? Their level of DHT is naturally reduced and they seem to survive, what makes you think that they are in less danger of low DHT levels than us taking the pil?

Andrew

I don't think their levels of DHT are naturally reduced. They just have less predetermined sites where dht can attach itself.

Oh, okay so its just their hair doesnt attract the DHT?

Andrew

 

[Zen2Bald]

All that stuff you wrote.. way too much for me, I like to keep things simple.

I already know about the FDA studies, that's enough piece-of-mind for my tastes.

Yeh ...because FDA studies ALWAYS find all the problems with drugs right???
Please tell that to all the people that died from using VIOXX.

You may like to keep things simple, but the human endocrine system is not simple at all.

minoxidil might make your scalp itch, or give you heart problems.... does that scare you too?

A little bit... but I have done a fair amount of research on minoxidil and found no indication that side-effects are not reversible. This is not the case with propecia. There is some indication that propecia side-effects are not always reversible.

Reversibility is the important part.

 

[Zen2Bald]

Any educated doctor would suggest you start Propecia, unless of course you have some specific pre-existing medical condition.

Actually I spoke with my derm about my concerns and she did say that they were valid. She said specifically that "the risk is very low, but present" that one could develop long-term treatment resistant side-effects if one's hormonal system is thrown out of wack.

 

[Demlotcrew]

What are your concerns? there seems to be lots of people who will use it here.
Im like yourself I don’t know if I want to go ahead with it just yet, maybe there are other treatments which are close. So please can you tell me what your reservations are.

What about the contraceptive pill for women, thats hormonal stuff as well?

Andrew

 

[Zen2Bald]

What are your concerns? there seems to be lots of people who will use it here.
Im like yourself I don’t know if I want to go ahead with it just yet, maybe there are other treatments which are close. So please can you tell me what your reservations are.

What about the contraceptive pill for women, thats hormonal stuff as well?

Andrew

Contraceptive hormones have been used for about 50 years, finasteride has only been in widespread use for less than 10 years. DHT's role in the body is not full understood.

It is true that finasteride has been used longer in higher concentrations for BPH but this is with MUCH older individuals. I do not think that the lack of side-effects in 50/60+ years olds with BPH can be translated to 20+ years olds with male pattern baldness. There is such a huge difference in hormone levels between 20-somthing year olds and 50/60+ year olds.

My concerns are that there are SOME reports of Erectile Dysfunction that does not go away when one stops taking propecia. There is a whole yahoo forum of people who have lasting side-effects even 1-2 years after having stopped taking propecia. Some of these individuals have also developed peyronies disease.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/fi ... e_effects/

 

[Demlotcrew]

Okay well going back to your original thread,

Rx Proxiphen < what is this and where can more information be found?

And what other treatments would you say are worth trying (sorry for all the question and highjack of your thread, but you seem to have invested alot of time in research and understanding so i will take your recommendations seriously.

I tried to Google it and had allot of rubbish come up.

I dont think i will take the pils now, not at 23.

Thanks


Andrew

 

[Zen2Bald]

Okay well going back to your original thread,

Rx Proxiphen < what is this and where can more information be found?

And what other treatments would you say are worth trying (sorry for all the question and highjack of your thread, but you seem to have invested alot of time in research and understanding so i will take your recommendations seriously.

I tried to Google it and had allot of rubbish come up.

I dont think i will take the pils now, not at 23.

Thanks

Andrew

Hello, let me just say that I am not an MD...these are all just my opinions. I am not trying to scare anyone away from propecia... I am just undecided about it.

Prescription Proxiphen can be found here:
http://www.drproctor.com/products.htm

Apparently you have to have a Dr. diagnose you as having male pattern baldness before he will sell it to you. There is also Proxiphen-N which is non-prescription...but I am not sure that it is worthwhile.

Proxiphen seems pretty good, but it is very expensive. It will cost $100/month for the first year and then 50$/month there after (because Dr. Proctor says that after one year, it doesn't need to be used as much).

I think Proxiphen (prescription) is worth trying if you dont mind spending the $$. It contains spironolactone and minoxidil as well as several SODs and other agents patented by Dr. proctor.

Its hard to say what else is worthwhile.

I am looking into Eucapil right now, but the isopropyl alcohol seems to cause some irritation if you have sensitive skin (which I do).

spironolactone cream seems like it 'could' work, but I have never really found any rave reviews of the stuff. A lot of people use it in their regimen though.

Minoxidil is also definitely worth using... im just not sure when its best to start it.

 

[Demlotcrew]

Your opinions are worth noting as its something that’s quite serious! I know that i care about my hair now but in ten years time when i don’t i will regret damaging my system. But i think that you are hopping to use a topical DHT blocker to buy you some time till the DHT hormonal tests have been carried out to the affects to the body over a longer period. Which is what i was hopping to also do. If the studies come back positive then ill go on to the pills, but till then ill stick to the topical treatments like Eucapil, i have also looked at this and i think that i may go for this, i don’t have sensitive skin at all so ill give it a try,

I also have a problem with concetration :lol:

Andrew

 

[misterium]

I wouldn't recommend propecia. I've been on it for almost 6 months and my hair situation at the front has worsened a lot.

You SHOULDN'T recommend Propecia.. you've only been on it 6 months! Give it a year or more before deciding if you want to continue taking it or not.

.. Your shedding is either a sign that the Propecia is starting to block DHT, and you're body is reacting.. or it is simply male pattern baldness related shedding.. but it IS NOT CAUSED BY FINASTERIDE in that your hairline to become worse.. that is not how finasteride works!

finasteride won't cause your hair to look worse.

 

[misterium]

Yeh ...because FDA studies ALWAYS find all the problems with drugs right???

Please tell that to all the people that died from using VIOXX.

You may like to keep things simple, but the human endocrine system is not simple at all.

In the case of Propecia it is certainly safe for the vast majority of users, and the FDA studies have found enough information for the MAJORITY of men (obviously not you) to feel comfortable in taking the drug.

Also, it's not new... it's been around for years and countless OTHER studies show it's effectiveness and safety level.

Asprin has been around for a long time too, with many studies done on it.. yet they still keep finding out new pros & cons of the substance... no study is ever completely finished in regards to ANY drug.. but we do our best and when the statistics go against your fears, well, that says a lot.

Comparing VIOXX to Finasteride is foolish.

It's your hair man, I'm just telling you that if you take finasteride you have much better chances at maintaining and/or regrowth, with zero side effects... you have an excellent chance. But you will never know unless you give it a try.

If you don't have any pre-determined medical conditions, any intelligent doctor would suggest you start finasteride... and of course they're not going to call you a sissy for your concerns, they are valid, they're just extremely rare and not worth worrying about. It would be the same as me worrying about a heart attack from drinking too much coffee.

Once again, you're scared for poor reasons.. human endocrine system or not.

Good luck with those topicals.. you're results will MOST LIKELY be poor without the addition of finasteride.

 

[Zen2Bald]

You need to read the post i made right after that one...discussing the safety profile of finasteride...and how it was determined with much older men.

Your reasoning is really poor. Just because a majority of men feel safe taking it does not mean it is safe. Drug companies have only one thing in mind and that is $$$.

You say "just take it and if u get side-effects stop taking it". Have you read any of my posts?

There are some people who have stopped taking finasteride over a year ago and are STILL experiencing side-effects...

that is the whole point!!

If ALL side-effects for ALL people stopped when one stopped taking propecia then I would have no problem taking it all!!

Also I was not comparing Finasteride to Vioxx. I was using vioxx to illustrate how your reasoning about FDA trials finding all problems is seriously flawed.

 

[Demlotcrew]

Im 23 and im not risking it for the sake of my hair, ive got to think about kids and how it would affect my life if something was not quite right there.
I have ordered some Eucapil, but i have also ordered some propecia but i wont take it just keep it maybe i will at a later date. I just cant afford to risk the damage at such a young age.

Andrew

 

[bluesmiley]

Zen2Bald, thanks for starting a good thread. What interests me is how quickly everyone throws Propecia into the mix as the only viable method for fighting hairloss and quickly discounts the possibility for any topical to give similar results -- even though Minoxidil is a proven topical (it just doesn't fight DHT like other topicals claim to). True, Propecia has FDA approval and legitimate studies behind it, but if you talked to an insider of Merck, they'd probably quickly tell you that getting the FDA approval was expensive but necessary to corner the market on hair loss right now, and if they were being candid, they'd also tell you that the market for hair loss drugs is a really terrible one and that they're sorely disappointed in sales of the drugs. And the reason they're not getting sales, of course, is because most people's insurance doesn't cover a pill used sheerly for cosmetic purposes.

With that in mind, think of Propecia as a kind of anomaly -- it's a drug with little to no competition in terms of FDA approval, but it's not a very successful one in terms of sales because insurance doesn't cover it. I don't think it's a mystery why the pharmaceutical industry isn't rushing out to find the next propecia killer in pill form, and most people losing their hair would much rather be taking pills than covering their heads in topicals, so the pharmaceutical industry isn't rushing out to find the next killer topical either.

I think that Propecia probably *IS* relatively safe for most people, but I, like other reasonable individuals, would rather save the drug as a last resort or not use at all due to concerns about regulating (and in a way, restricting) our natural hormone processes through a pill JUST TO FIGHT HAIR LOSS. Sorry, but if there's any chance that Propecia is going to make me anywhere near as moody as a woman going through crazy hormone shifts, I'd rather avoid that fate. And why throw drugs at your hormones (even if you're only affecting one aspect of your hormones) if there's a possibility to attack hair loss directly in the area where hair loss occurs - the scalp?

I will say this ~ I don't know that there are topicals that can give the same results as propecia, but I would say that there probably are, and that Minoxidil proves that topicals can have a positive (and sometimes profound) affect on hair growth. Remember that the hair loss drug market is filled with snake oils salesmen, so the truly legitimate products have a hard time separating themselves from the pack, and even the legitimate ones that are working for people have very few people sticking with them for more than a few months. I'm convinced that someone is MUCH MORE LIKELY to stick with Propecia for a full year than they would be, say, Revivogen, simply because Revivogen doesn't have that coveted FDA seal of approval behind it, yet any hair loss treatment needs 6 months to a year to receive any kind of relevant evaluation.

I've had some success with Revivogen (after using it for around 9 months now), and I've read so many promising things about Eucapil that it is now impossible for me to not give it a shot before resorting to Propecia. I'll let you know how it works out in 6 months or so, but based on my research, I actually believe that Eucapil (possibly used in conjunction with Revivogen and CU Peptides) offers a SUPERIOR alternative to using finasteride, let alone using finasteride without any other topicals. Time may prove me wrong, and I may be kicking myself for not just getting on Propecia, but I'm not too worried. I had my head shaved for a fundraiser yesterday, and I have to say, it's not a bad look.

 

[misterium]

Gotcha..

You just sound like a sissy to me that's all .. a wimp who is afraid of something that is very rare and unlikely. No offense, I'm using those words purely as a description of what I'm reading from you, all the scared talk, when you haven't even given it a try!

To me it's like the person who says "marijuana is dangerous" yet they themselves have never tried it... I call it ignorant and based on scare tactics.

Vioxx doesn't even belong in the same conversation as finasteride. Your illustration is weak because the issues that can arise from finasteride, are already known, and there has been no 'surprises' from taking it (ie; nobody has grown tails or had heart attacks).. all the other possible & RARE sides are known (ie; gyno, lower libido, etc)..

Vioxx SURPRISED people, all sorts of bad things happened to some users... the same cannot be said for Propecia. There are no Propecia law suits. Why? Because it's VERY safe and VERY few people get any serious sides.. and those rare sides have been documented already over many years, unlike Vioxx which wasn't studied well enough obviously.

That said, the FDA is NOT perfect by any means, never will be.. however, in the case of finasteride, they did PLENTY of research, and the stuff is safe for the MAJORITY of people.

You're just scared of some rare possibilities, which is silly in regards to finasteride, ESPECIALLY if you haven't even tried it for a few weeks first to see how you respond!

Tell me, since driving in a car has caused accidents and deaths before, do you stay away from driving?

 

[misterium]

Im 23 and im not risking it for the sake of my hair, ive got to think about kids and how it would affect my life if something was not quite right there.

I just cant afford to risk the damage at such a young age.

Andrew

Damage? You are also being rather silly here. Unless, of course you've taken finasteride before and experienced problems... otherwise, yeah, you're being very silly and presumptuous.

At 23 you have a great chance to maintain and/or regrow a lot of hair, by taking finasteride.

23 is NOT TOO YOUNG to start finasteride!

Finasteride doesn't eat hair!

If you have sides, don't take it. You'll be fine.

If you have male pattern baldness, take it.

Otherwise, rhetoric and scared behavior will not do.

You have nothing to worry about, unless you're one of the rare people who gets side effects after taking it.

You have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. Start taking your pills and stop being scared of the horror stories you hear around here.

 

[misterium]

but it's not a very successful one in terms of sales because insurance doesn't cover it.

I think that Propecia probably *IS* relatively safe for most people, but I, like other reasonable individuals, would rather save the drug as a last resort or not use at all.

Sorry, but if there's any chance that Propecia is going to make me anywhere near as moody as a woman going through crazy hormone shifts, I'd rather avoid that fate.

I get my Propecia FREE directly from Merck patient assistance program, because I am unemployed currently and they provide free pills.

Propecia IS SAFE FOR MOST PEOPLE, that's what the studies have all shown.

You should save minoxidil as a LAST RESORT, and always start with finasteride. This is hairlosstalk.com 101 brother.

You'd have to take Propecia for a few good weeks first before deciding if it's making you "moody" (RARE).. your concern there is VERY small, and I cannot even acknowledge any better than to say it's completely retarded.

Be sure and stay away from the air outside too, because the pollution might make you sick.

8 months, zero sides.. just like a million other users ..

 

[misterium]

Drug companies have only one thing in mind and that is $$$.

There are some people who have stopped taking finasteride over a year ago and are STILL experiencing side-effects...

Every person and every company is out to make money.

The companies have other goals in mind also, such as creating SAFE & EFFECTIVE DRUGS (ie; drugs that can keep the hair on your head).

Also, they make drugs that help keep cancer and AIDS patients alive much longer than without the drugs. Sure, drugs are expensive.

Trial and error, that is the nature of pharmaceuticals. Propecia isn't scary enough NOT to take if you have male pattern baldness.. I could see if 1 out of 3 guys grew man tits, got depressed, or couldn't get an erection, but guess what??? .. nevermind.

You will never know if you're going to be one of those very RARE people that you speak of, since you're not going to give it a try. :roll:

 

[bluesmiley]

Misterium,
I should make this point clear:
- I'm not arguing that Propecia is an unsafe drug that people should stear clear of except as a last resort.

My question is:
Why fight hair loss systemically at all if you can find a topical regimen that works effectively for you?

My follow-up question is:
Is Propecia even the the BEST method for fighting hair loss? Given that it reduces scalp DHT by only 40% (I rounded up here), it would seem to have a major vulnerability in terms of fighting the primary cause of hair loss. I have no doubt that it works, but is it optimal at reducing DHT in the scalp? And if there are any risks associated with taking a drug that has an effect on your body's hormones, why take that risk at all if effective topicals are available?

I'm 9 months on Revivogen/Nizoral, and I've recently added Folligen (for general scalp health). I've had 0 sides (of course) and I've experienced a noticeable reduction in hair loss (which I'm assuming you could say with regards to your use of Propecia as well). I made the choice to go the topical route right now for a slew of reasons, the main one being, why fight hair loss systemically if you don't have to?

BECAUSE PROPECIA IS THE ONLY FDA APPROVED PROVEN TREATMENT, THEREFORE IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS is usually the argument pounded into everyone's brain on these boards. I would challenge people on the board to do their own research and draw their own conclusions about what kind of drugs to use in fighting hair loss.

Until gene therapy, follicle multiplication, or some other dramatic procedure becomes a reality, I think the ideal way of treating hair loss would be through the use of a topical treatment--one that doesn't interact with anything else systemically, and one that treats the scalp directly, leaving the rest of the body alone.

Do we have any FDA defined proof that such a topical exists? No, nor should we expect any given the relatively lackluster financial success of Propecia and people's general resistance to using topicals to begin with. But just because we don't have "Proof" that an effective topical exists, that doesn't mean they're not out there.

My experience with Revivogen has been a positive one, and after reading about a good study involving the use of Fluridil (Eucapil) to treat hair loss and seeing many people speak positively about it on other forums, I think it's possible it could be even BETTER than Propecia at treating hair loss. Do I have proof? Of course not, nor should we expect anyone to fund the research necessary to generate such "proof" or for Eucapil to endure the laborious process of obtaining FDA approval anytime soon, if at all; the reason being that, as far as I know, obtaining that approval is an extremely expensive process for a drug market (hair loss) that is relatively unlucrative because insurance doesn't cover it.

In other words, there just isn't much money for pharmaceutical companies to fund the research for and get FDA approval to market topical treatments to hair loss. Propecia is good enough for most people, and that it's a pill instead of a topical makes it the ideal solution for most people, so the book is closed on hair loss pills, except for those willing to jump onto the much more precarious Duta bandwagon.

If you don't mind taking a systemic approach to hair loss, then go right ahead -- you'll PROBABLY be fine, and you'll PROBABLY reduce your hair loss. People should consider the possiblity, though, that there may be topical treatments that are effective at treating hair loss, and furthermore, that the best treatment for hair loss MIGHT BE A topical regimen *gasp*.

I think it's POSSIBLE that a regimen of Eucapil/Revivogen and CU Peptides would kick the living crap out of Propecia as a treatment to hair loss, but since I don't have FDA approval for that statement, I doubt most of the Big 3 Advocates would believe me, even if in 6-12 months I shouted out my success (which I may very well do -- stay tuned).

I could be wrong about all this, could eventually get on Propecia and begin spreading the finasteride gospel, etc. etc, but given my success with topicals so far and the possibility that the success might be improved upon with Eucapil, I'm not too worried about it right now.

 

[misterium]

I dunno man, I'm not reading all that though.

All I know is that propecia is good, if you have male pattern baldness and don't get sides, you should take propecia.. and if you don't need a topical yet, you should hold off.. such as myself, I'm not touching a topical until I feel I 'need it' or not... and right now, propecia does fine along with nizoral.

All the rest, is details to me.. because I have had ZERO sides, so I personally don't WORRY about anything.