Why do i have such a scalp pain?

Shittyhair

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Hi all!

My male pattern baldness has really taking over my life :( And the pain i have in my scalp makes me thing about this 24/7. I really hope that someone has the same feeling as me, and has found i cure
for it!

Almost all my hair has a white/yellow ball connected to it (it is not the bulp, mine is futher up the hair) and the yellow ball is hard like a rock! what is it? My scalp is always red and inflamated. sometimes the hair that i lose is connected to each other (2,3 hairs) I'm i losing a hole foccular unit at a time?

What i have tried so far:

propecia for about 7 month
Nizoral schampoo for about 4 month, had to stop using it, made my scalp pain worse
Tea tree oil schampoo, no luck either
Head & shoulders, makes my scalp look and feel like a war zone!
very mild baby schampoo, the best one yet but not good :(
Tetracycline 300mg two times a day for 3 month, for follicle inflamatiion.

I have lost maybe 50% density on top and temples has gone byebye only in a 1/2 years time

What should add or try? i am out of ideas :(

Do you guys think it will go away if i shave my head? I am beginning to think that is my only option

Best regards / a troubled 25 year old
 

Shittyhair

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Thanx for fast response!

Sorry, but i have been to a derm, he prescribed me with the tetracyclines (or whats it's called) I also have a prescribtion for a topical steriod, but i have been to afraid to use it yet :(
My doctor thought it might mike matters worse.

I have been off propecia for 4 days to see if my oilyness to my face decreases, but it hasnt.

The said part is that i only have one MBP victim + me in my family, and he is my uncle. My dad has more hair then me, and he is soon 60 :(

Sorry for bad english
 

KEVING

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I have the same problem i think it just gotten worse in the last six months and it is really annoying. My hair also has gotten alot worse. My scalp is sore when pressed and itchy but scratching it makes no difference. Ive been on here for ages complianing about it. Ive been to the Doctor and he gave me a topical steroid it helped a wee bit but im still not cured.

Im going back to the doctor tommorrow hopefully he will have something else.


If you find anything let me know, keep you posted

1mg finasteride
stopped nizoral
Tricomin Shampoo and Conditioner
4 months
 

Gilgamesh

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it's because androgens are thickening your galea

the thickened galea creates tension

the solution is to have your galea removed

this can be done at the hair clinic in brugge, belgium by dr.decoopman or at the wellness kliniek in genk, belgium

**i'm not sure about this, and i might change my mind :)
 

Gilgamesh

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truthfully, i still believe male pattern baldness is an endocrine disfunction involving acth/cortisol and insulin resistance

but the galea might be part of it? im not sure
 

arya

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shittyhair, i had inflamated scalp for while too and I used topical steriod shampoo capex and it worked fine for me. Good luck.
 

phish386

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Shittyhair,
Don't know if this helps but I used to also have a really sore, painful scalp in the times of worst shedding when male pattern baldness really kicked in to gear (about 10 yrs ago). Hair was totally lifeless and shaving it was the only way of not looking a total freak, which also had the effect of lessening the pain somewhat.
I tried lots of things but in the end after about 6 months only a major change in lifestyle made it go away ie. no drugs, alchohol, fresh air, low stress, plenty exercise. It comes back occasionally still but only a minor annoyance. Try what you can, but fingers crossed it *could* like myself subside of its own accord.
 

jikslee

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t/gel with salicylic acid. I swear this stuff works;I think its called t/sal in the US. Also i find taking MSM internally helps too.
 

giggsy

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I cured it

Guys,

You are all barking up the wrong tree. I wish HairLossTalk.com would put this up as sticky thread because I keep having to repeat myself. Below is an extract from one of my old posts:

Guys, Sorry for the length, but below is an article I downloaded from the internet recommended by Dr Lee (Cost me US$12). Its free here for whoever wants a read. Very Interesting but quite long. I found quite a few answers in here since anti depressants have severely reduced my scalp pain:

Scalp Dysesthesia
Diane Hoss, MD; Samantha Segal, MD
Arch Dermatol. 1998;134:327-330.
ABSTRACT

Background

Cutaneous dysesthesia syndrome is a disorder characterized by chronic cutaneous symptoms without objective findings. Patients complain of burning, stinging, or itching, which is often triggered or exacerbated by psychological or physical stress. These symptoms may be manifestations of an underlying psychiatric disorder or may represent a type of chronic pain syndrome.
Observations

Eleven women presented with chronic severe pain and/or pruritus of the scalp only without objective physical findings, a condition we term "scalp dysesthesia." Five women described pain, stinging, or burning only; 4 women complained of pain and pruritus; and 2 women reported pruritus only. The patients ranged in age from 36 to 70 years. The duration of symptoms ranged from 9 months to 7 years. Five women had physician-diagnosed psychiatric disorders, including dysthymic disorder, generalized anxiety, and somatization. Seven women reported that stress triggers or exacerbates their symptoms. Eight women experienced improvement or complete resolution of symptoms with treatment with low-dose doxepin hydrochloride or amitriptyline hydrochloride. One patient responded completely to treatment with sertraline and hydroxyzine hydrochloride but then experienced a relapse.

Conclusions

We describe 11 patients with a new syndrome that we term scalp dysesthesia. Of 11 patients, 9 benefited from treatment with low doses of antidepressants.


INTRODUCTION

THE CHRONIC pain syndromes include the burning mouth syndrome (synonyms: glossodynia, stomatodynia, oral dysesthesia, glossopyrosis, and stomatopyrosis), vulvodynia, scrotodynia, and atypical facial pain (synonym, orofacial dysesthesia). Patients with 1 of these syndromes report localized cutaneous or mucosal debilitating pain or burning, sometimes without abnormal physical findings. We describe 11 women with chronic distressing scalp symptoms, a condition we term "scalp dysesthesia."





REPORT OF CASES

The characteristics of the 11 women with scalp dysesthesia are presented in Table 1, Part A, and Table 1, Part B.

COMMENT

In 1981, Cotterill1 described 28 patients with "dermatologic non-disease." These patients reported significant facial, scalp, and genital burning and discomfort or itching often associated with a disturbed body image (body dysmorphic disorder). Koblenzer and Bostrom2 coined the term "chronic cutaneous dysesthesia syndrome" to refer to patients whose primary cutaneous complaint is dysesthesia. Dysesthesia can be defined as "a disagreeable sensation present with ordinary stimuli."3 Chronic cutaneous dysesthesia is a separate clinical entity from body dysmorphic disorder or a circumscribed delusion, such as delusions of parasitosis.2 Examples of chronic cutaneous dysesthesia include the burning mouth syndrome, vulvodynia, scrotodynia, and atypical facial pain.
When confronted with a patient complaining of localized pain, one must consider possible underlying localized organic disease, systemic organic disease, or psychological disease. In the case of burning mouth syndrome, the physician must rule out local disease (geographic tongue, candidiasis, or contact stomatitis), systemic disease (diabetes, xerostomia due to Sjögren syndrome or medication use, or vitamin deficiencies), or psychological disease.4 Similar consideration must be given to women with vulvodynia3 and patients with orofacial dysestheia.5
Cutaneous disease was present in only 1 of our patients. Patient 6 had biopsy-proven prurigo nodularis of the scalp. These lesions were caused by constant picking of a pruritic and burning scalp in a patient with known atopic dermatitis. Her prurigo nodularis lesions, which were present for 5 years, completely disappeared when her scalp symptoms resolved. None of our patients exhibited signs of psoriasis or seborrheic dermatitis that might have caused their symptoms.
We also considered whether alopecia could have caused or contributed to the scalp dysesthesia in our patients. Of our 11 patients, 7 (2 premenopausal and 5 postmenopausal) had mild androgenetic alopecia (Androgenetic Alopecia). In 1960, Sulzberger et al6 reported that women with "diffuse alopecia" complained of associated scalp symptoms, including "spotty tenderness, tingling, crawling, itching, burning and uncomfortable awareness of the scalp." Mild Androgenetic Alopecia is common in women. Venning and Dawber7 noted mild Androgenetic Alopecia in 220 (87%) of 254 premenopausal women seen in a dermatology clinic for reasons other than hair loss. Thus, our patients do not have an increased incidence of Androgenetic Alopecia compared with the general population. It is unlikely that mild Androgenetic Alopecia is the sole cause of the scalp symptoms in these 7 women. Even if mild Androgenetic Alopecia is the cause, control of scalp symptoms can be achieved without changing the clinical finding of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Patient 1 had documented telogen effluvium on 2 separate occasions. No cause was determined for the telogen effluvium. The results of a complete blood cell count, thyroid function tests, and iron studies were all normal. Treatment of her scalp burning with doxepin hydrochloride resulted in cessation of burning and decreased daily hair loss on both occasions. A recent review of telogen effluvium does not mention scalp burning associated with increased daily hair loss.

Temporal arteritis and tension headaches are underlying medical conditions with symptoms that may include scalp pain or tightness. Features that militate against a diagnosis of temporal arteritis in our patients are the diffuse distribution of the scalp pain and the presence of normal erythrocyte sedimentation rates in those patients tested. When queried, all patients stated that their pain did not resemble a headache. The 2 women who reported scalp pruritus without pain had negative or normal results of a laboratory workup for pruritus (complete blood cell count, liver function tests, and measurement of levels of blood urea nitrogen, creatinine, glucose, and thyroid stimulating hormone).

A psychiatric cause or overlay has been reported in patients with chronic pain syndromes or cutaneous dysesthesias.1-2,9-12 In fact, chronic pain has been referred to as a "depressive equivalent."9 Many of the chronic pain syndromes were initially thought to represent a psychiatric disorder only. However, one must be cautious when reviewing data describing a personality profile or a psychiatric disorder associated with any chronic condition, particularly a painful one.3, 13 Is a psychiatric disturbance (ie, depression) the cause of chronic pain or does experiencing chronic pain result in symptoms of depression? A subset of chronic pain sufferers probably do have an underlying psychiatric illness causing their symptoms. However, in the experience of Bowers,13 "most of the cutaneous/mucosal pain syndromes are not caused by psychological pathology." Continued research into the chronic pain syndromes now suggests that they may represent a neurologic dysfunction that in some cases is associated with a secondary psychiatric component.
It is interesting that 5 of our patients had 1 or more physician-diagnosed psychiatric disorders. Dysthymic disorder, a mood disturbance characterized by a chronically depressed mood, was present in 2 patients. Prior somatization was present in 3 patients. Generalized anxiety was present in 4 patients. Of these 5 patients, 4 had psychiatric problems that were present prior to the onset of scalp dysesthesia. Of the 11 patients we describe herein, the symptoms in 7 patients intensified with psychological stress.

A common denominator of many chronic pain syndromes is improvement or complete resolution with treatment with low-dose antidepressants.13 Three possible mechanisms have been proposed14-15: first, antidepressant use may relieve depression associated with or caused by chronic pain and thus improve symptoms; second, the tricyclic antidepressants may have analgesic properties; and/or third, depression and pain may share a similar underlying biochemical mechanism.
Several placebo-controlled studies have documented the efficacy of low-dose antidepressants for treating chronic pain. Postherpetic neuralgia responds to treatment with amitriptyline hydrochloride as demonstrated in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover study.16 There was no significant antidepressive effect with the low doses used (median dose, 75 mg). A 1992 placebo-controlled study17 compared the efficacy of desipramine hydrochloride, amitriptyline, and fluoxetine hydrochloride for treating chronic pain in diabetic neuropathy. Desipramine and amitriptyline were equally effective and superior to placebo in both depressed and nondepressed patients with diabetic neuropathy. Fluoxetine had no greater analgesic effect than placebo in nondepressed patients. Patients who were depressed benefited from fluoxetine therapy. In a retrospective review, McKay18 reported that dysesthetic (essential) vulvodynia responds to treatment with low-dose amitriptyline.

Gabapentin, a newly released anticonvulsant medication, has been effective in treating chronic pain syndromes (erythromelalgia19 and reflex sympathetic dystrophy20) in uncontrolled studies. In the future, this drug may prove to be a useful adjunctive therapy for managing a variety of chronic pain syndromes, including scalp dysesthesia.

Of the 11 patients, 9 experienced improvement or complete resolution of their scalp symptoms with low-dose antidepressant treatment. Patient 9 (with pruritus only) was not responsive to numerous therapies including several antidepressants. Patient 5 was unavailable for follow-up. Patient 7 responded to therapy for 1 year but then had a relapse. Patients 1, 6, and 8 reported that symptoms recur if use of the medication is stopped. The positive response to therapy supports our belief that scalp dysesthesia represents a chronic pain syndrome or a subset of the cutaneous dysesthesia syndrome.

It might be argued that patients with only scalp pruritus may have a different condition than those complaining of scalp pain. We included those patients with only pruritus for several reasons: first, several patients with pain or burning reported coexisting pruritus or initial transient pruritus; second, there appeared to be a spectrum of complaints ranging from pain only, to pain and pruritus, to pruritus only; and third, the degree of interference with daily life seemed similar in all patients regardless of their specific symptom. The sensations of both pain and itch are carried on the same unmyelinated (slow), afferent, group C nerve fibers. However, patients with only pruritus were less responsive or unresponsive to therapy with low-dose antidepressants.

CONCLUSIONS

We describe 11 women with scalp dysesthesia, a condition that we believe is a type of chronic cutaneous dysesthesia. These women experienced debilitating scalp pain and/or pruritus. We are not certain if our patients have pain secondary to underlying psychiatric conditions, such as anxiety, dysthymic disorder, and somatization, or if these psychiatric problems are unrelated or caused by the scalp dysesthesia. More studies are needed to determine the cause of scalp dysesthesia and define any role psychiatric diseases may play in causing or enhancing the pain experienced by these patients. Further studies should also formally evaluate the efficacy of treating scalp dysesthesia with low-dose antidepressants.

AUTHOR INFORMATION
Accepted for publication August 3, 1997.
We acknowledge Jean Vogel, MD, for performing psychiatric evaluations of 2 of our patients and Peter Lynch, MD, for providing helpful suggestions regarding therapy with low-dose antidepressants.
Reprints: Diane Hoss, MD, University of Connecticut Health Center, Dowling South, Suite 300, MC 6230, 263 Farmington Ave, Farmington, CT 06030.
From the Department of Dermatology, University of Connecticut Health Center, Farmington.

REFERENCES

1. Cotterill JA. Dermatological non-disease: a common and potentially fatal disturbance of cutaneous body image. Br J Dermatol. 1981;104:611-619. ISI | MEDLINE
2. Koblenzer CS, Bostrom P. Chronic cutaneous dysesthesia syndrome: a psychotic phenomenon or a depressive symptom? J Am Acad Dermatol. 1994;30:370-374. ISI | MEDLINE
3. McKay M. Vulvodynia, scrotodynia, and other chronic dysesthesias of the anogenital region (including pruritus ani). In: Bernhard JD, ed. Itch: Mechanisms and Management of Pruritus. New York, NY: McGraw-Hill Book Co; 1994:161-183.
4. Huang W, Rothe MJ, Grant-Kels JM. The burning mouth syndrome. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1996;34:91-98. ISI | MEDLINE
5. Aghabeigi B. The pathophysiology of pain. Br Dent J. 1992;173:91-97. ISI | MEDLINE
6. Sulzberger MB, Witten VH, Kopf AW. Diffuse alopecia in women. Arch Dermatol. 1960;81:108-112.
7. Venning VA, Dawber RPR. Patterned androgenic alopecia in women. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1988;18:1073-1077. ISI | MEDLINE
8. Headington JT. Telogen effluvium: new concepts and review. Arch Dermatol. 1993;129:356-363. ABSTRACT
9. Koblenzer CS. Psychocutaneous disease. In: Moschella SL, Hurley HJ, eds. Dermatology. Philadelphia, Pa: WB Saunders Co; 1992:2025-2041.
10. Lynch PJ. Vulvodynia: a syndrome of unexplained vulvar pain, psychologic disability and sexual dysfunction. J Reprod Med. 1986;31:773-780. ISI
11. Feinmann C, Harris M, Cawley R. Psychogenic facial pain: presentation and treatment. Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1984;288:436-438. ISI | MEDLINE
12. Hampf G, Vikkula J, Ylipaavalniemi P, Aalberg V. Psychiatric disorders in orofacial dysaesthesia. Int J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 1987;16:402-407. ISI | MEDLINE
13. Bowers KE. Cutaneous and mucosal pain syndromes. Med Surg Dermatol. 1995;2:129-132.
14. Lee R, Spencer PSJ. Antidepressants and pain: a review of the pharmacological data supporting the use of certain tricyclics in chronic pain. J Int Med Res. 1977;5(suppl 1):146-156.
15. Feinmann C. Pain relief by antidepressants: possible modes of action. Pain. 1985;23:1-8. ISI | MEDLINE
16. Watson CP, Evans RJ, Reed K, Merskey H, Goldsmith L, Warsh J. Amitriptyline versus placebo in postherpetic neuralgia. Neurology. 1982;32:671-673. ABSTRACT
17. Max MB, Lynch SA, Muir J, Shoaf SE, Smoller B, Dubner R. Effects of desipramine, amitriptyline and fluoxetine on pain in diabetic neuropathy. N Engl J Med. 1992;326:1250-1256. ABSTRACT
18. McKay M. Dysesthetic (‘essential') vulvodynia: treatment with amitriptyline. J Reprod Med. 1993;38:9-13. ISI | MEDLINE
19. McGraw T, Kosek P. Erythromelalgia pain managed with gabapentin. Anesthesiology. 1997;86:988-990. ISI | MEDLINE
20. Mellick GA, Mellick LB. Reflex sympathetic dystrophy treated with gabapentin. Arch Phys Med Rehabil. 1997;78:98-105. ISI | MEDLINE
 

The Gardener

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You are not losing follicular units. Follicular units do not 'shed' out of your scalp.

It sounds to me as if you have poor scalp health. I'd suggest T/Sal and Nizoral, cycled twice each weekly until your situation changes, or until your doctor prescribes something new for you.
 

KEVING

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I have tried Tricomin spray, Jasons thin to thick, Topical Steriods, Inflamil, nizoral, T-GEL and none have worked.

I think maybe it could be down to depression. Because i had a really bad car crash in January and its gotten really worse from then. I also had to start finasteride again and noticed id lost heaps of hair.

Do you think i should try some anti-depression drugs??? Do any interact with finasteride??
 

jikslee

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gigsy - there's no way i'm trading in my t/gel for anti-depressants! I assume you're taking them for more thna just scalp pain though.

More studies are needed to determine the cause of scalp dysesthesia and define any role psychiatric diseases may play in causing or enhancing the pain experienced by these patients. Further studies should also formally evaluate the efficacy of treating scalp dysesthesia with low-dose antidepressants.

i also dont like the way it ends with this point of more studies being needed, but mayeb its just one way of dealing with it, like finasteride and minoxidil can grow hair but they do it completely differently. Regularly taking MSM, which is an anti-inflammatory, helped get rid of my scalp pain, also using t/gel does, also using nizoral does, and you don't necessarily have to use them all. I just don't want people reading this thread and running off to buy a load of anti-depression medictaion when they don't need to.
 

Shittyhair

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Thanxs ones again for all your repleys!

I'm off to the pharmacys tomorrow for some topical steroid, i pray to god that it helps! Right know i would like to kick god in his nuts for giving me male pattern baldness! :evil: hope i didnt offend any relegious people :)

Giggsy: You may be right with your theory, this sh*t can make a grown man almost cry! but i have clear evidence that my scalp is not healthy, i have been diagnosed with follicular inflamation, but i dont know what is causing it nor do my doctor.

Every one that i have talk to says that mbp does not hurt, but after surfing this site with real male pattern baldness suffers i know that is not the case. I really think we should gether up and try to find a cure for this, as it seems that i am not the only one with scalp pain

I will keep you posted if topical steroid is a success or a failure
 

giggsy

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Look Fellas I am no Dr

All I know is that I suffer from depression and was never on anti depressants. I suffered from anxiety and I never linked the anxiety to my scalp pain. My scalp constantly felt like it was bruised. I read this article and decided to get on anti-depressants because I wanted to stop my anxiety.

As soon as my anxiety got better, my scalp pain completely went away. Bottom line is that you are wasting your time with trying to use Nizoral and T/Gel to cure scalp pain. I tried it all... Folligen, T/Gel, Nizoral, Tea Tree Oil.

I believe the problem is internal and has to do with your nervous system. This is reinforced in the article. If you suffer depression then get off your arse and go see a Dr. My advice is to ask the Dr to recommend a counsellor and to prescribe you an anti depressant that will treat your problem. Based on what you are describing, I am sure it will help your scalp pain.
 
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