Which Density Do I Need To Avoid Such A Result..

Saulus

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Srs

How much grafts per cm^2 you need to avoid such result?

1. White guy black hair

2. White guy blonde hair
 

kj6723

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50-60 grafts per cm^2 is the most any ethical surgeon will do in 2017, so if they're doing that many you can be sure you're getting the best density possible with a transplant

Regardless it will not be as dense as your native hairline was, so don't go in with that expectation. You would have to regrow your native hairline for that, which might also be a possibility if you haven't yet exhausted your treatment options
 

Saulus

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50-60 grafts per cm^2 is the most any ethical surgeon will do in 2017, so if they're doing that many you can be sure you're getting the best density possible with a transplant

Regardless it will not be as dense as your native hairline was, so don't go in with that expectation. You would have to regrow your native hairline for that, which might also be a possibility if you haven't yet exhausted your treatment options


Honestly whats the point

If you look like the above its better to go bald
 

Pequod

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You have to be careful, because if you go for the high density you may end up with massive problems like scalp necrosis or permanent shock loss. Both those guys look way better than a NW5.
 

IdealForehead

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Good question. I would agree those are not ideal cosmetic outcomes. "High density" transplantation seems like mostly a myth unless it's due to the surgeon slightly augmenting great natural hair or it's photographed under very flattering lighting.

Both those lighting conditions you posted are highly unforgiving and very revealing.

I'm interested in further opinions as well.
 

subterfuge

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couldn't he get another transplant to make it more dense?

Also, I don't get how sometimes on youtube, you see results where the transplanted hair looks super thick. Is it down to surgeons skill? Having a surgeon who is willing to 'dense pack'? Something else?
 

IdealForehead

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couldn't he get another transplant to make it more dense?

Also, I don't get how sometimes on youtube, you see results where the transplanted hair looks super thick. Is it down to surgeons skill? Having a surgeon who is willing to 'dense pack'? Something else?

I know in at least one case i saw where there was just an incredible result the guy had started finasteride at the same time as his transplant, so half the result was probably a finasteride response.

I actually think this is common too, as a lot of guys who go to surgeons are surprisingly idiots and not using finasteride at all before their surgery. So they go on finasteride, get 2000 units transplanted, and then also grow back another 3000 units of natural hair (good responders) from the finasteride, and all of a sudden a year later they have incredible hair.

I don't know if that's ALL the cases of incredible reponse. But the more i see of transplant jobs from top surgeons on this site like bernstein, the more i realize a few thousand units on its own does not go very far.
 
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Kidbako

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Both those guys, with strategically placed topik, could have a fuller look.
 

IdealForehead

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Interesting discussion. I recently was talking about density with my surgeon the same topic. I've had a transplant with him and he's also checked for miniaturisation all over my scalp a couple of times to determine my pattern. Anyway he had some figures (based on his own experience) concerning density. He said someone with hispanic/mediterranean hair thick black hair can get away with 30% density - believe it or not - on a white scalp. That those with finer hair even if it's blonde on white skin, need 60% plus for respectable density. Huge difference. Of course you got to grow it out though.

Yeah, I think the key concept to accept when dealing with hair transplants is you are never going to be creating true density. The goal is the ILLUSION of density.

Surgeons all max out now at 50-60 units/cm2 for safe max transplantation. I find it hard to find data on the exact average "FU density" of natural hair but I found this interesting surgeon's site. He lists some stats on some of his patients.

For example for this hair transplant, the surgeon says it was:

Native density: 72, 93 and 88 FU/cm2 in temporal, parietal and occipital areas
Recipient density: 56 to 61 grafts/cm2

So if you have high native density of around 90 FU/cm2, and you get a 55 FU/cm2 "high density" transplant, you are left with only 61% of your natural density.

Can this create the illusion of natural hair? Perhaps. Is it the same as your natural hair? Obviously not by a long shot.

It's actually very disappointing to consider in many ways, as there is no conceivably way to improve this even with limitless donor supply. It simply has to do with incisions, blood flow, and scalp healing.
 

Kidbako

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If done correctly and naturally, it should look as thick as the rest of your hair from a distance. Look is really the key word here. Certainly won't feel as thick nor respond the same way in wet conditions or in harsh lighting. I'd say 60% density for someone with thick hair is excellent, almost like native hair. Perhaps not for those with fine hair. That's why holding onto native hair is vital even when you have calibre and donor numbers on your side. It just looks that little bit more dense and natural.
 

Roberto_72

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Go bald then

Exactly.

I don't get who these users are enraged with.
With surgeons? Not their fault if the donor area of a man is very small compared to the recipient area.

With biochemist engineers who can't make new hair cells? Well they haven't been able to recreate a blood cell, which looks way more important.

The only element that would make sense being enraged with is... their own genes.
 

subterfuge

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Does the max amount of hairs per CM after a transplant include existing hair?
I'm kinda confused about this.
I keep reading that hair transplants will only give like 40 hairs per cm. (lets use this number for the benefit of my question)
I have some very thin areas that I assume have like 25 hairs per cm.
Will a transplant be able to give me an EXTRA 40 hairs per cm (so 65hairs per cm overall) or only an extra 15 hairs per cm, leading to the 'max of 40 hairs per cm?'
 

meangreen

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Most surgeons will add up to an additional 40 grafts per cm2 for each surgery and still call that dense packing, while some will do up to 50-60 per surgery. Your final density would be this addition plus whatever you had before, whether transplanted or native. You can have additional transplants to reach up to your native density of 80 to 100 grafts per cm2. However, most people only need 40 to 50 grafts per cm2 final density to achieve a good cosmetic outcome, but likely 60 to 70 with fine hair. I will try to find 2 blog posts by top surgeons that explain this and link them here.

Also, 40 seems to be the gold standard to achieve 92% fue graft survival rate, while with 50-60 this rate may go down to 80 something, which begs the question of 'is it better to have only a single surgery and use up more donor hair or two surgeries that preserves it a little better?' There is also some research about this and hopefully I can also dig up and post this study as well.

The original picture looks like my result at 40 per cm2. We have exactly the same hair type, texture, and color almost. This result is actually very common for the first pass if you have fine hair. Under better lighting this result could appear much better.

So to answer the original question by OP, I would say you would need 60 to 70 grafts per cm2 to avoid this result, but chances are it will take 2 surgeries.

Sources:

https://www.rahalhairtransplant.com/many-grafts-need-full-head-hair/
The 50% rule gives me a baseline… I know that I need to transplant above 40 grafts cm/2 (roughly) to create the illusion of a fuller, thicker head of hair.

Though I find that 50-70 grafts cm/2 achieves maximum fullness & density… so you can style your hair as you wish — long, short, parted, or “messy”.


http://shapiromedical.com/learning-center/understanding-density-2/
Another concept that is important to understand is the concept of “social observation” vs. “critical observation”. A hair transplant that achieves a density of 40-50 FU/cm2 will achieve social fullness, which means that the patient will look full most social situation. This includes casual observation from across the room to about a foot away. It is not meant to eliminate the ability to see any scalp under all“critical” observations which mean very close up, orparted. If one critically examines the scalp of people without hair loss, some scalp can be often seen.Patients who agonize about never seeing any scalp under any situation have unrealistic expectations about the purpose of hair transplants and will never be satisfied. A patient can be made to look full under most situations… but the scalp can be found under critical close up observation
 
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Saulus

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Does that mean even if we manage to clone hairfolicles and get an unlimited supply of donor hair were still fucked?
 
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