Which Density Do I Need To Avoid Such A Result.. | HairLossTalk Forums

Which Density Do I Need To Avoid Such A Result..

Discussion in 'Hair Transplants Information - General Discussions' started by Saulus, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. Saulus

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    2,w=993,c=0.sport.jpg

    940x528?v=1462952692000.jpg

    Srs

    How much grafts per cm^2 you need to avoid such result?

    1. White guy black hair

    2. White guy blonde hair
     
  2. kj6723

    kj6723 Senior Member My Regimen

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    50-60 grafts per cm^2 is the most any ethical surgeon will do in 2017, so if they're doing that many you can be sure you're getting the best density possible with a transplant

    Regardless it will not be as dense as your native hairline was, so don't go in with that expectation. You would have to regrow your native hairline for that, which might also be a possibility if you haven't yet exhausted your treatment options
     
  3. Saulus

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    Honestly whats the point

    If you look like the above its better to go bald
     
  4. kj6723

    kj6723 Senior Member My Regimen

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    Go bald then
     
  5. Saulus

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    Its 2017 and we still cant properly and handle cure baldness

    Enraging
     
  6. Pequod

    Pequod Established Member

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    You have to be careful, because if you go for the high density you may end up with massive problems like scalp necrosis or permanent shock loss. Both those guys look way better than a NW5.
     
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  7. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Good question. I would agree those are not ideal cosmetic outcomes. "High density" transplantation seems like mostly a myth unless it's due to the surgeon slightly augmenting great natural hair or it's photographed under very flattering lighting.

    Both those lighting conditions you posted are highly unforgiving and very revealing.

    I'm interested in further opinions as well.
     
  8. subterfuge

    subterfuge Member

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    couldn't he get another transplant to make it more dense?

    Also, I don't get how sometimes on youtube, you see results where the transplanted hair looks super thick. Is it down to surgeons skill? Having a surgeon who is willing to 'dense pack'? Something else?
     
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  9. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    I know in at least one case i saw where there was just an incredible result the guy had started finasteride at the same time as his transplant, so half the result was probably a finasteride response.

    I actually think this is common too, as a lot of guys who go to surgeons are surprisingly idiots and not using finasteride at all before their surgery. So they go on finasteride, get 2000 units transplanted, and then also grow back another 3000 units of natural hair (good responders) from the finasteride, and all of a sudden a year later they have incredible hair.

    I don't know if that's ALL the cases of incredible reponse. But the more i see of transplant jobs from top surgeons on this site like bernstein, the more i realize a few thousand units on its own does not go very far.
     
    #9 IdealForehead, Nov 22, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2017
  10. Kidbako

    Kidbako Established Member My Regimen

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    Both those guys, with strategically placed topik, could have a fuller look.
     
  11. IdealForehead

    IdealForehead Senior Member My Regimen

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    Yeah, I think the key concept to accept when dealing with hair transplants is you are never going to be creating true density. The goal is the ILLUSION of density.

    Surgeons all max out now at 50-60 units/cm2 for safe max transplantation. I find it hard to find data on the exact average "FU density" of natural hair but I found this interesting surgeon's site. He lists some stats on some of his patients.

    For example for this hair transplant, the surgeon says it was:

    Native density: 72, 93 and 88 FU/cm2 in temporal, parietal and occipital areas
    Recipient density: 56 to 61 grafts/cm2

    So if you have high native density of around 90 FU/cm2, and you get a 55 FU/cm2 "high density" transplant, you are left with only 61% of your natural density.

    Can this create the illusion of natural hair? Perhaps. Is it the same as your natural hair? Obviously not by a long shot.

    It's actually very disappointing to consider in many ways, as there is no conceivably way to improve this even with limitless donor supply. It simply has to do with incisions, blood flow, and scalp healing.
     
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  12. Kidbako

    Kidbako Established Member My Regimen

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  13. Kidbako

    Kidbako Established Member My Regimen

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    I guess the secret is to keep at least 10 feet from anyone
     
  14. shookwun

    shookwun Senior Member

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    this commonly happens when doctors start grafting 2s at the front.

    hairline should only be single grafts
     
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  15. razzmatazz91

    razzmatazz91 Senior Member My Regimen

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    Dude, that is a terrible looking result. Sucks to know it's common
     
  16. Saulus

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    This is why keeping your hair is important

    Dont go bald
     
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  17. Roberto_72

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    Exactly.

    I don't get who these users are enraged with.
    With surgeons? Not their fault if the donor area of a man is very small compared to the recipient area.

    With biochemist engineers who can't make new hair cells? Well they haven't been able to recreate a blood cell, which looks way more important.

    The only element that would make sense being enraged with is... their own genes.
     
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  18. subterfuge

    subterfuge Member

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    Does the max amount of hairs per CM after a transplant include existing hair?
    I'm kinda confused about this.
    I keep reading that hair transplants will only give like 40 hairs per cm. (lets use this number for the benefit of my question)
    I have some very thin areas that I assume have like 25 hairs per cm.
    Will a transplant be able to give me an EXTRA 40 hairs per cm (so 65hairs per cm overall) or only an extra 15 hairs per cm, leading to the 'max of 40 hairs per cm?'
     
  19. meangreen

    meangreen New Member My Regimen

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    Most surgeons will add up to an additional 40 grafts per cm2 for each surgery and still call that dense packing, while some will do up to 50-60 per surgery. Your final density would be this addition plus whatever you had before, whether transplanted or native. You can have additional transplants to reach up to your native density of 80 to 100 grafts per cm2. However, most people only need 40 to 50 grafts per cm2 final density to achieve a good cosmetic outcome, but likely 60 to 70 with fine hair. I will try to find 2 blog posts by top surgeons that explain this and link them here.

    Also, 40 seems to be the gold standard to achieve 92% fue graft survival rate, while with 50-60 this rate may go down to 80 something, which begs the question of 'is it better to have only a single surgery and use up more donor hair or two surgeries that preserves it a little better?' There is also some research about this and hopefully I can also dig up and post this study as well.

    The original picture looks like my result at 40 per cm2. We have exactly the same hair type, texture, and color almost. This result is actually very common for the first pass if you have fine hair. Under better lighting this result could appear much better.

    So to answer the original question by OP, I would say you would need 60 to 70 grafts per cm2 to avoid this result, but chances are it will take 2 surgeries.

    Sources:

    https://www.rahalhairtransplant.com/many-grafts-need-full-head-hair/
    The 50% rule gives me a baseline… I know that I need to transplant above 40 grafts cm/2 (roughly) to create the illusion of a fuller, thicker head of hair.

    Though I find that 50-70 grafts cm/2 achieves maximum fullness & density… so you can style your hair as you wish — long, short, parted, or “messy”.


    http://shapiromedical.com/learning-center/understanding-density-2/
    Another concept that is important to understand is the concept of “social observation” vs. “critical observation”. A hair transplant that achieves a density of 40-50 FU/cm2 will achieve social fullness, which means that the patient will look full most social situation. This includes casual observation from across the room to about a foot away. It is not meant to eliminate the ability to see any scalp under all“critical” observations which mean very close up, orparted. If one critically examines the scalp of people without hair loss, some scalp can be often seen.Patients who agonize about never seeing any scalp under any situation have unrealistic expectations about the purpose of hair transplants and will never be satisfied. A patient can be made to look full under most situations… but the scalp can be found under critical close up observation
     
    #19 meangreen, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  20. Saulus

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    Does that mean even if we manage to clone hairfolicles and get an unlimited supply of donor hair were still fucked?
     
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