michael barry
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michael barry said:I think I have the article that Stephen is referring to where androgen receptors had to be overexpressed on purpose for experimental integrity due to the fact that their expression was degenerating during multiple passages. I'll just cut and paste it for you both.
michael barry said:Doctor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im sorry, I hope you didn't waste ten minutes reading the above. Its the wrong article (its been a long time since these debates between Stephen and Bryan) THIS is the article, which is heavy on TGF beta (you'll be pleased)
http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v8/ ... 0093a.html
docj077 said:Michael,
Thanks for the post. However, that didn't give me the information that I needed. That study pretty much proves that male pattern baldness exists at the cellular level and does not require the action of different tissues outside of the hair follicle in order to occur. All that is required is the secondary mediators produced by balding dermal papillae cells. If it was the wells causing contact inhibition, then all hair would be growth inhibited.
docj077 said:Hair growth is not inhibited with normal dermal papillae cells. However, hair growth IS inhibited in the presence of dermal papillae cells that are from balding scalp. Obviously, something is different at the molecular level and the only difference that I can see would have to be within the receptor itself.
Bryan said:docj077 said:Michael,
Thanks for the post. However, that didn't give me the information that I needed. That study pretty much proves that male pattern baldness exists at the cellular level and does not require the action of different tissues outside of the hair follicle in order to occur. All that is required is the secondary mediators produced by balding dermal papillae cells. If it was the wells causing contact inhibition, then all hair would be growth inhibited.
So familiar I am with the way Mr. Foote's mind works, I can already tell you what his response to that study is: he thinks that the fundamental cause of the slow deterioration in hair growth in male pattern baldness is contact inhibition, and that the in vitro results in the study above (and other similar studies) are due to the contact inhibition CAUSING a change in the way that those cells respond to androgens. In other words, the change in response to androgens is just sort of a side-effect of contact inhibition! Seriously, that's what he really believes, and that's how he tries to explain the Uno study above! :wink:
docj077 said:Hair growth is not inhibited with normal dermal papillae cells. However, hair growth IS inhibited in the presence of dermal papillae cells that are from balding scalp. Obviously, something is different at the molecular level and the only difference that I can see would have to be within the receptor itself.
Docj, I think it's a little misleading and confusing to focus too much on the polymorhpisms of the androgen receptor which are associated with balding. Those only affect the intensity of the androgenic stimulus, which doesn't address the more fundamental question of why it is that body hair dermal papillae and scalp hair dermal papillae have such different RESPONSES to androgens.
docj077 said:How can anyone in this thread expect to derive any information from a study that allows the defective androgen receptor to be produced and overexpresses the AR number? Both are going to lead to increased androgen action in the dermal papillae and increase TGF-beta appropriately to levels that very likely match levels in the balding human scalp.
docj077 said:I absolutely agree that the polymorphisms don't explain the difference. Unfortunately, we can work out what likely causes the process to occur in the scalp. I can't really tell you why it doesn't occur in the rest of the body.
docj077 said:There is either more androgen action in the scalp and it offsets the intrinsic activity of the scalp follicles more than body hair follicles or their is an inhibitor produced in the rest of the body that we're missing. The other possibility is that the intrinsic activity of body hair is far lower (I think it is at it seems to grow slower than scalp hair) and the overstimulation of the androgen receptor in the hair follicles of the body simply brings androgen stimulation and action up to a level that still allows growth (maybe even accelerates it), but also prevents its inhibition.
Bryan said:docj077 said:How can anyone in this thread expect to derive any information from a study that allows the defective androgen receptor to be produced and overexpresses the AR number? Both are going to lead to increased androgen action in the dermal papillae and increase TGF-beta appropriately to levels that very likely match levels in the balding human scalp.
But that's exactly THE POINT of the study: to prove that balding is caused by the action of androgens on the dermal papillae of scalp hair follicles, which then causes the expression of negative growth factors which harm the whole of the follicle.
docj077 said:Bryan said:docj077 said:How can anyone in this thread expect to derive any information from a study that allows the defective androgen receptor to be produced and overexpresses the AR number? Both are going to lead to increased androgen action in the dermal papillae and increase TGF-beta appropriately to levels that very likely match levels in the balding human scalp.
But that's exactly THE POINT of the study: to prove that balding is caused by the action of androgens on the dermal papillae of scalp hair follicles, which then causes the expression of negative growth factors which harm the whole of the follicle.
I understand that the point of the study was to prove what you've said above. I just would have done things differently. From what I've read in this thread alone, it seems that the entire process is not only androgen dependent, but also androgen receptor concentration dependent. With a low level of defective androgen receptor due to mRNA degradation or inhibition, you will get no hair growth inhibition. Only after you insert a vector containing the receptor and you overexpress it do you get a response that warrants follicular inhibition. The whole thing is androgen dependent, because it is androgen receptor dependent.
docj077 said:It's almost too perfect and the studies explain the process so clearly and they actually give us the conditions that are required. You either need full production of the defective androgen receptor RNA or you need to increase normal androgen receptor RNA enough with a vector to adequately prolong and increase the androgen dependent biochemical reactions. Not only is this true, but you do not need any tissue besides the follicle with dermal papillae cells from balding scalp. So, these DPCs are not contact inhibited and neither are the keratinocytes as they are removed from any inhibition, but the keratinocytes are still growth inhibited.
docj077 said:As for the difference between scalp hair and body hair, I really do think that the difference is in the intrinsic activity of the follicle. With total androgen insensitivity you will still get the development of minimal pubic and axillary hair. However, the hair in the scalp will still grow longer and faster than body hair and will have no androgen response. So, there is activity in what is considered "androgen dependent" hair even without androgens. The only explanation is a difference in follicular cycling at the cellular level. Even with a defective receptor, the length and speed of cycling should be different. In the scalp, there is a must faster intrinsic response and androgens simply have more to build on. The same should not hold true in the body.
Bryan said:docj077 said:As for the difference between scalp hair and body hair, I really do think that the difference is in the intrinsic activity of the follicle. With total androgen insensitivity you will still get the development of minimal pubic and axillary hair. However, the hair in the scalp will still grow longer and faster than body hair and will have no androgen response. So, there is activity in what is considered "androgen dependent" hair even without androgens. The only explanation is a difference in follicular cycling at the cellular level. Even with a defective receptor, the length and speed of cycling should be different. In the scalp, there is a must faster intrinsic response and androgens simply have more to build on. The same should not hold true in the body.
I'm not entirely clear what you mean when you use terms like "intrinsic activity" and "intrinsic response". Are you saying that you feel that the opposite response to androgens of scalp hair follicles and body hair follicles is indeed intrinsic to each individual hair follicle and the specific biochemical reasons for that are unknown, or are you saying you think it's reasonable that such a difference exists, and you have a tentative hypothesis to explain it?
S Foote. said:Bryan.
Of course there are lot's of other factors that can and do effect hair growth. But the donor dominance claim in transplantation does not make any such allowences!
S Foote. said:If as you now claim, other factors can change the growth of so called androgen responsive follicles, yet remain androgen dependant for "most" of it's growth characteristics, the next question is obvious?
How do you "KNOW" if it's another factor causing the growth change, or a change in the androgen control? How can you measure which factor is causing the change? You just can't!
S Foote. said:You are now saying that so called androgen dependant body hair can have it's androgen growth "control" overuled by external factors.
S Foote. said:In your original claim about donor dominance, you quoted the case of male pattern baldness follicles transplanted to other areas retaining their growth rate as proof of your donor dominance argument.
Suppose i had said then that those male pattern baldness follicles "would" have increased their growth "IF" they had recieved other outside influences, that overuled the androgen effect you claimed? You would have jumped on me instantly!
S Foote. said:It is the current theory you support Bryan that is the problem you have here. My theory accepts external influences, yours just doesn't!
docj077 said:Not only reasonable, but I really do believe that there is an intrinsic difference. Using men with androgen insensitivity syndrome and women with hirsutism as models. As I mentioned before, men with AIS will still develop minimal pubic and axillary hair even with complete AIS. This means that there is no androgen response, and thus, no androgen mediated growth. Without androgens as a growth promoter, these men will have hair growth that is based strictly on the intrinsic nature of the follicle in a given area of the body. Obviously, the pubic hair growth is minimal, but the hair of the scalp continues to grow at rate that is far above the body hair. With that model, one can see that there is an intrinsic difference in follicle cycling and growth rate when androgen action is removed.
docj077 said:S Foote. said:Whats up "Doctor"?
Why have you not cleared up the issue as to if you are a genuine Doctor or not? Here's a puzzle for you while you are thinking about it.
You claim some kind of faulty androgen receptor status as being the cause of male pattern baldness?
I don't claim this. There are many known AR gene polymorphisms including: the (CAG)n trinucleotide repeat, the (GGC)n trinucleotide repeat, and the R726L single nucleotide polymorphism. The defect in the androgen receptor appears to be a single nucleotide polymorphism. There are also co-receptor mutations that are well known and associated with male pattern baldness.
I see that you still lack appropriate forum manners. You know that I'm not a doctor. I'm a medical student. Big difference, but that doesn't discredit my opinion as I have many years of research experience combined with clinical experience. I always forget what your credentials are, but I'm sure that you'll remind us all of your incredible education and unparalleled research skills.
Docj007 said:If this is true, then the hair follicles would lose more than just the ability to produce androgen receptors. Either transcription or translation would have to be inhibited cell-wide and if it simply a product that degrades protein, then all cellular processes would be inhibited. To expect any sort of results from such studies that use the culturing method you seem to be mentioning would be foolish at best.S Foote. said:The in-vitro tests are often quoted as proof of the androgen action in male pattern baldness, as being "right there" within the follicles themselves. But because of the culturing process itself. the follicles cells used in these tests loose the ability to produce androgen receptors.
Docj007 said:The alternative is that the transportation machinery of the cell is somehow disrupted. But, once again, that would skew any results that are obtained using such a culturing method as one would expect inappropriate intracellular protein targeting.
I would enjoy reading them. I don't believe you, but I'd enjoy reading them.S Foote. said:I had links to specific studies that stated this, but i lost these recently (computer problems). Perhaps Michael can help with these links.
http://www.med.unc.edu/pharm/rjlabpg/pdfs/cocb99.pdf[/url]
Heres one thing we do have evidence for, it has been shown that contact inhibition and TGF beta-1 target the same genes in cell cycle arrest!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
If the androgen effect is limited to within the follicle itself, what then causes the proven microvascular insufficiency in the male pattern baldness area?
http://www.plasreconsurg.com/pt/re/prs/ ... 44!8091!-1
Such hypoxia in "itself" is known to upregulate TGF beta-1.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
Work that one out for yourself!
We also have the studies regarding lipedematous alopecia and lipedematous scalp.
Note the link with ectactic lymphatic vessels associated with cases involving hair loss!
http://alopecia.researchtoday.net/archive/1/2/66.htm
We know that hair growth varies greatly in areas of the body in the complete absense of any androgen influence. The most logical explaination for this is not any internal factor within the follicles, but an external difference in the resistence offered to anagen follicle enlargement by the surrounding tissue, through normal contact inhibition of growth.
Variable resistence from surrounding tissue would easily explain the entire range of growth in different areas from vellous to terminal, and have some purpose in mammalian evolution.
In my opinion, the overwhelming body of evidence points towards androgens effecting the dermal resistence to follicle enlargement, so changing hair growth in different areas.
If you are going to argue it is all down to differences in androgen receptors, then answer Bryans question?
What are the various differences in androgen receptors that account for the range of androgen responses in hair follicles?
Also, if people are going to claim the in-vitro studies "do" reflect what happens in-vivo, how is it that follicles in these studies that are known to be "future" male pattern baldness follicles, are not "directly" growth restricted by androgens in-vitro?
Bryan has tried to claim that these follicles need to be exposed to androgens for a while before they "then" become sensitive to androgens?
The big problem with this is the normal hair cycle, that even male pattern baldness follicles go through.
Every time a follicle cycles, it is re-built during anagen from stem cells. Stem cells have no pre- dispositions, hence the term stem cells. So where are all these "different" built in responses to androgens coming from?
Bryan claims that a period of direct exposure to androgens is needed before male pattern baldness kicks in.
If this was true, there would be no such thing as male pattern baldness, because each new anagen follicle in the male pattern baldness area would grow normally for at least long enough to be replaced by other new anagen follicles after male pattern baldness has "kicked in" in existing follicles, by a period of exposure to androgens.! (According to Bryan).
What the current theory has to prove, is that there is "some" difference in the genetic expression within hair follicles, that would allow the different responses we see to androgens, "BEFORE" androgens come into the equasion!
S Foote.
Bryan said:S Foote. said:Bryan.
Of course there are lot's of other factors that can and do effect hair growth. But the donor dominance claim in transplantation does not make any such allowences!
How do YOU know what donor dominance "claims" are being made in transplantation? Seriously, how do you know? Medical knowledge and opinion are dynamic things, they shift and change as we do more experiments and learn more and more. The Korean experiment has added a bit to our knowledge of hair transplantation.
Bryan said:S Foote. said:If as you now claim, other factors can change the growth of so called androgen responsive follicles, yet remain androgen dependant for "most" of it's growth characteristics, the next question is obvious?
How do you "KNOW" if it's another factor causing the growth change, or a change in the androgen control? How can you measure which factor is causing the change? You just can't!
It seems extremely unlikely that some supposed "change in androgen control" would account for the increased growth in the Koren experiment, because we know that body hair isn't all THAT sensitive even to strong hormone manipulation like what you get with finasteride and dutasteride.
[quote="S Foote.":6a348]You are now saying that so called androgen dependant body hair can have it's androgen growth "control" overuled by external factors.
S Foote. said:In your original claim about donor dominance, you quoted the case of male pattern baldness follicles transplanted to other areas retaining their growth rate as proof of your donor dominance argument.
Suppose i had said then that those male pattern baldness follicles "would" have increased their growth "IF" they had recieved other outside influences, that overuled the androgen effect you claimed? You would have jumped on me instantly!
S Foote. said:It is the current theory you support Bryan that is the problem you have here. My theory accepts external influences, yours just doesn't!
S Foote. said:Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you are "NOT" entitled to mislead people about the validity of your opinions by pretending to be a Doctor when your not!
Please change your handle, or i will formally protest to the admin of this site about your misrepresentation.
S Foote.