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What type of persons are more vulnerable to hairloss?

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Armando Jose, May 11, 2007.

  1. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    That isn't MY claim and I grow tired of your "scientific" observations and opinions. That is the claim of pretty much everyone that studies hair loss except for you...and Armando.

    I keep forgetting that you have a Ph.D. in molecular biology <sarcasm>.

    You seem to ignore the very opinion of the people that study this phenomenon on a daily basis.

    Good for you, but bad for the forum.

    http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v8/ ... .html#fig2

    "Secretion of TGF-1 into the medium from cocultured of KCs and DPCs from bald patients
    TGF-1 is known to inhibit human KC growth in vitro (Shipley et al, 1986), and the expression level of its receptor in epithelial cells of hair follicles is tightly regulated during the hair cycle (Paus et al, 1997). Moreover, TGF-1 -/– mice exhibit delayed catagen progression (Foitzik et al, 2000) and exogenous administration of TGF-1 hair follicles in vitro to induces catagen progression (Soma et al, 1998). Therefore, we focused on TGF-1 as a candidate mediator in the androgen-induced growth suppression of KCs. To examine whether TGF-1 production is up-regulated by androgen, we measured the concentration of TGF-1 in the conditioned medium after the coculture of KCs and bald DPCs for four d using an ELISA assay. The concentration of TGF-1 was 69.0 or 184.7 pg/ml in the conditioned medium treated with ethanol or 10-9M R1881, respectively (Figure 3), showing that androgen stimulates the production of TGF-1 in this coculture."

    "Reversal by TGF-1 neutralization of androgen-induced growth inhibition of KCs
    To confirm the function of TGF-1 in androgen-induced growth inhibition of KCs, we examined the effect of the neutralizing antibody against human TGF-1 on this growth suppression in cocultures of KCS and bald DPCs. Neutralizing anti-TGF-1 almost completely reversed the inhibition of proliferation of KCs by 10-9M R1881 in this coculture system (Figure 4), demonstrating that TGF-1 mediates the signal from DPCs to KCS during growth suppression."

    So, now what are you talking about with regards to TGF-beta? Do you even know? Do you have a study that involves injecting TGF-beta into human scalp follicles in-vivo and it didn't demonstrate inhibition, because I'd like to read such an article?

    To ignore the above, seems very foolish on your part. As you can see, TGF-beta null mice demonstrate delayed catagen progression. Not only is this true, but androgens have been clearly found to upregulate TGF-beta in culture. Another study has been posted on this forum that clearly demonstrates that TGF-beta is increased in-vivo, as well. Lastly, antibody against TGF-beta reverses the inhibitory effects of TGF-beta produced by the dermal papillae cells and restores normal keratinocyte function.


    And, by the way, the following is the opinion and the observation of the individuals performing this study:

    "In cocultures, R1881 had no significant effect on the proliferation of DPCs (data not shown). These results suggested that this in vitro coculture of DPCs and KCs reproduces very well the in vivo interaction between DPCs and KCs, especially in terms of androgen effects on hair growth."

    You can argue all you want, but the actual people with the credentials to have an opinion say that what they've done "reproduces very well the in vivo interaction between DPCs and KCs, especially in terms of androgen effects on hair growth." So, I have to ask, what makes you more qualified than these individuals when you say that these studies aren't sufficient or that these growing conditions aren't correct or when you have some other opinion that goes against the knowledge and the opinion of your scientific superior? I have to ask, because just as you think that I'm bad for the forums, I'm starting to think that you're far worse. To openly proclaim theories that directly contradict the opinion of hair loss researchers with years of experience and then you tell people that the answer is edema and that cooling of the scalp will help the condition. I'm surprised you haven't been removed from this forum. At least Bryan, Michael, and few others study the articles and draw conclusion based upon the conclusions of the authors. What you're doing is almost an insult to the intelligensia running these experiments.


    So, you can think what you want, but NOBODY else in the world of hair loss thinks the same as you.

    All the studies that people keep posting around here dealing with TGF-beta and androgen mediated inhibition of hair growth are three years older or more. Where have you been that you're unable to conform to the scientific norm? Did you wake up one day and decide that coming up with a theory with no biochemical or physiological basis behind it was the answer to sustaining your life? You don't have the histology to back up your claims, nor do you have the pathophysiology.



    And, by the way, was coming on here and claiming that you have a life outside of this forum just some attempt to establish some sort of sense of self-importance? You have a theory with a website for that theory. Who is the one with a life outside of the forums, again?
     
  2. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Bryan wrote:
    “With this newer study which has been recently re-posted by Armando and Old Baldy, it seems to be becoming increasingly clear that ALL scalp hair follicles are "prone" to male pattern baldness to some degree (quite possibly even pre-pubertal ones), it's just that some are more sensitive to that problem than others.â€￾

    But then, why some hairs are more sensitive to that problem than others?
    My idea is a problem with sebum. I don’t think in genetic differences.


    And Bryan wrote:
    “Again, that's purely a hypothesis on your part. It could well be that docj's idea is correct: pre-pubertal scalp hair follicles _might_ show a similar suppression, if only they had the same numbers of androgen receptors as hair follicles from older scalps. But that's something that needs to be tested, “

    Is there any study about androgens receptor in prepubertal scalp hairs? I didn’t find anyone.
    But as Docj077 wrote from an article: “Androgen receptor mRNA abundance seems to approach its maximum at the stage at which sebocytes achieve competence for their specific pattern of lipid accumulationâ€￾
    It is possible that androgens receptors levels in prepubertal persons are similar to women and men, always in healthy scalp hairs. My supposition is that prepubertal have an operative sebaceous gland (pattern of lipid accumulation). But that's something that needs to be tested.

    Armando
     
  3. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Michael Barry;
    You wrote:
    The four universities that completed those two studies (three in Czechoslovakia and one here in California, aren't "owned' by biopharma or whatever little company makes fluridil. They had a picture of a woman with a mustache, and then without a mustache. Thats pretty good proof.

    You, Armando, should be all for topical receptor blockers that would reduce sebum secretions anyway. The less sebum that is made, means there is less to make trouble for the philosebaceous unit. Wiping the head with a towel every few hours would also be something that should be good according to what you believe.

    Thank you for the list of studies with fluridil. I take note.
    The problem with sebum is not really related at its quantities or production, the real problem is the continuously no-elimination of it. Rastafarians have an “excellentâ€￾ hair scalp and they have a lot of sebum and oily substances over the surface of hair shaft, but they haven’t problems in the elimination.

    BTW, Dr. Sovak is the same scientist of patent product PC-SPES to treat prostate cancer?

    Armando
     
  4. S Foote.

    S Foote. Experienced Member

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    Let's just cut out the same old repetitive rubbish about what you and others "claim" the in-vitro tests "mean".

    People like you and Bryan read all this old stuff, then decide to post this on hair loss forums as if it gives you some kind of personal "authority".

    You both figure that quoting what you see as old established studies, will hide your complete lack of any scientific talent. Because if you are asked questions you cannot answer, you can always "run away" to a stance of "this is on the scientific record"!!

    What both you and Bryan "CANNOT" do in these debates, is explain in a proper scientific way, any points that go against your own ego generated claims!

    I will ask you just one more time?

    How do you explain the clear results of that mouse study, where full "organ" human male pattern baldness follicles regrew? How can you possibly reconcile that with your claims of the cause of male pattern baldness being a direct androgen induced TGF beta-1 effect???? :roll:

    Also how do you explain the consistent action of a direct exposure to androgens, failing to change the pre-existing growth rate of "ANY" hair follicles in-vitro!! How can you then claim all these various "predispositions"?

    Just answer the questions! :roll:


    How could you possibly link my statement of a life outside of these forums, to me trying to claim a kind of superiority "ON" these forums?

    You are really more stupid than i first thought :wink:

    So according to your "expert" opinion, "NOBODY" else in the world of hair loss thinks the same as me?

    OK, let's take a look at what a "REAL" hair loss expert said about my theory?

    This is the response of the well known hair loss researcher Dr Marty Sawaya to my theory, quote:

    "It is a very complex process, but your thoughts are very organized and on the right path, similar to what others have been proposing, and in some ways yours are more straightforward. I think you've done a good job in thinking this through......
    Hope this helps...
    regards
    Marty Sawaya"

    So "REAL" scientists are now thinking along the same lines as me! But you a medical student, pretending to be a qualifled Doctor on internet forums thinks otherwise. :roll: :roll: :roll:

    Who should people believe, the established Dr Sawaya, or a deranged medical student living in a fantasy world?

    Mmmm. thats a hard decision! 8)

    As far as your claim that you are trying to help people on these forums goes, bulls**t!

    Your expert "advice" that people should try to effect the multi functional pathway of TGF beta-1, is just ignorant and downright dangerous!

    I have changed my mind about you trying to pretend you are a Doctor. I don't think this is a sentimental title as you tried to claim before, but a deliberate ploy to try to convince people you have some kind of superior insight into male pattern baldness.

    So i will give you a week to change your name on these forums, if you don't i will then ask admin why they still allow you to lie to people here?

    S Foote.
     
  5. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    Stephen,

    You never have explained this study, which would seemingly contradict your assertions about that 22-week study with immuno-deficient mice.

    The mice in THIS study are not immuno-deficient, and since human beings aren't immuno deficient either, this six month study that showed only 2 hairs regrowing on mice for a second cycle, despite the fact that TISSUE SCAFFOLDS would have been formed, would seemingly invalidate your theory all together:


    A controlled study of the effects of RU58841, a non-steroidal antiandrogen, on human hair production by balding scalp grafts maintained on testosterone-conditioned nude mice
    B. DE BROUWER, C. TÉTELIN, T. LEROY, A. BONFILS & D. VAN NESTE0Skin Study Centre, Skinterface sprl 9 rue du Sondart-B 7500 Tournai, Belgium, 1Roussel Uclaf, Romainville, France
    Correspondence to: D. Van Neste. Skin Study Centre, Skinterface sprl 9 rue du Sondart-B 7500 Tournai, Belgium
    Abstract
    Human hair growth can be monitored for several months after the transplantation of scalp samples from men with androgen-dependent alopecia on to female nude mice. Hair production from balding sites has been shown to be inhibited in testosterone-conditioned nude mice. We used this recently reported model to study the effect of a new non-steroidal antiandrogen — RU58841 — on human hair growth. Twenty productive scalp grafts from balding men were maintained for 8 months after grafting on to nude mice, and hair production was monitored monthly for 6 months. All mice were conditioned by the topical application of testosterone (testosterone propionate, 300 μg in 10 μL; 5 days/week) on the non-grafted flank. The scalp samples were divided equally according to the estimated hair production potential, which was based on the amount of hair present on the scalp samples before grafting. Each of the two equal groups of grafts was further allocated at random to be treated topically (5 days/week) with blinded solutions of either RU58841 1% in ethanol, or ethanol as a control.

    Twenty-eight active follicles appeared on the 10 control grafts. Among them only two follicles (7%) initiated a second hair cycle. However, the 10 RU58841-treated grafts bore a total of 29 active follicles, and eight of them (28%) showed a second cycle. The values for the linear hair growth rates (LHGR) were significantly (P < 0.04) higher in the RU58841-treated group. Recycling and increased LHGR indicate a positive action for RU58841 on human hair growth from balding samples grafted on to testosterone-conditioned nude mice, and encourage a clinical trial to evaluate its potential in the treatment of androgen-dependent alopecia.



    Breaking out that Marty Sawaya letter yet again (by the way, what in the hell has happened to her? She isn't in on the Folica research or HM research? Has her star fallen after the dutasteride debacle?) is irrelevant.
    Numerous articles on the DERMAL PAPILLA GROWTH INHIBITOR TGF_beta one have been published in regards to hairgrowth over the last two years. Doctor's idea that its "the" big DP inhibitor that causes most of the later bad events in male pattern baldness is right along with the mainstream of male pattern baldness thinking these days.
    STEPHEN, Do you want to talk about hair growing on mice????????????
    Look at this picture, http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v112/ ... gure-title
    The mice that grew the most hair used barley and apple proanthocyanidins. Barley and apple proanthocyandins inhibit (drum roll please).......................tgf-beta (and PKC with apples)

    Now according to Stephen Foote, those results are because barley and apple proanthocyandins make lymph nodes drain so much better than minoxidil. I think I'll forginve the scientists in Japan who conducted this research for thinking that TGF-beta is a growth inhibitior within the dermal papilla, released towards keratinocyte cells. Stephen, YOU are the one who is way way way outside the mainstream.

    Your tone and unfairness towards Doctor reveals alot about yourself and how much you personally want to see the establishment position on male pattern baldness to be debunked.
     
  6. docj077

    docj077 Senior Member

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    You completely ignored everything that I said and the very conclusions of those that have both the skills and the education to formulate a valid opinion.


    Go ahead. Ask the admins. Then, I will ask why they continue to allow you to lie to everyone by posting false scientific claims and false scientific opinions. You want to turn this into your own personal third grade pissing match, then go for it. Apparently, age doesn't grant wisdom or intelligence in your case.

    Grow up.


    Also, tell me again why you said the following:

    "Your expert "advice" that people should try to effect the multi functional pathway of TGF beta-1, is just ignorant and downright dangerous!"

    Especially, since this pathway is currently a major target in molecular biology from problems ranging from male pattern baldness all the way up to fibrotic disease of the liver and kidneys. My advice is simple and it is to keep up with studies that examine and target this molecule.

    Do you even know what the effect of targeting this pathway is? I have to ask, because taking in supplements that target this pathway actually prolongs life and many people (lets say tens of millions) eat herbs (curcumin) on a daily basis that affect this pathway.

    I'm interested to hear your opinion on the subject, since you are obviously qualified to have such an opinion.




    Also, this is from the abstract of an article that Sawaya, herself, has her name on.

    http://www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr/en/r ... /resume.md

    "Results from our study indicate caspase 3 to be of primary importance in normal hair homeostasis and that DHT may be signaling greater expression of caspases, inducing apoptosis in androgenetic alopecia. In conclusion, DHT may selectively regulate the caspase genes which play an important role in signaling programmed cell death, affecting the hair growth cycle."

    Caspase 3 can be activated by either the intrinsic or the extrinsic pathway. You want to PROVE your point once and for all, then demonstrate that main pathway involved in keratinocyte death and inhibition is the extrinsic pathway and ONLY the extrinsic pathway. It's that simple.

    Read the following as you might learn something:

    http://home.arcor.de/gekkehenk/HW/HW%20 ... cycle..pdf


    Afterall, it was only posted in that magazine THREE YEARS AGO!!!
     
  7. Bryan

    Bryan Senior Member
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    That study hasn't been duplicated yet by others, and I'll also point out to you again that while it's interesting, it's also terribly incomplete, as far as supporting your eccentric theory is concerned. There was no data whatsoever on the levels of androgens in those genetically-mutated mice. As Michael pointed out in his post above, other hair transplantation experiments with other rodents haven't fared as well. You're "cherry-picking" your studies in an effort to make your theory look reasonable.

    Why have you ignored my reply to you on that from a few days ago, in which I pointed out that docj's own suggestion (about the lack of androgen receptors in youthful animals) may in fact be the simple and correct explanation? Is it because you're intellectually dishonest? :wink:
     
  8. I_Hate_DHT

    I_Hate_DHT Established Member

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    In terms of "race" I once read a study showing that asian people were less predisposed to hairloss.. I can't find the study right now, but im sure it's somewhere in the internet, if you do a search. There is also visual proof, that latinos or brown guys, mestizos, etc, are less predisposed to hairloss. Just go to a latin neighbor and check thier prefect hairlines. Go to Mexico, go to Venezuela, those guys are gifted in terms of hair.

    And this one will sound a little "nazi" and very controversial to some, but from what I have seen and observe in the last 8 years, is that most "NOT MIXED UP CAUCASIC RACES", have full heads of hair. Check out nazi soldiers pictures from 3rd reich. Check out your caucasic friends who are not mixed up. You will harly see a bald guy. And We are talking about caucasic, blonde and black haired guys with white skin, who are supposed to be more predisposed to lose hair than brown, mexicans or latinos. Check dutch, german or russian guys who come from pure race or master race family tree, they have perfect hairlines. Although most people will not recognize it, mixed up caucasic races, lead to these problems. For example, mixing up a blond guy with a brown girl or a brown guy with a blonde viking. I repeat, I don't intend to sound "nazi". If the 3rd reich would have never existed, nobody would be complaing about someone doing this kind of statements, so think twice about it. :wink:

    And in terms of activity, there has also been proved that aerobics or cardio on a daily basis, has a big incidence in slowing down or stopping hairloss. I always wondered why most football players (USA strange people call it soccer) have full heads of hair. And those who have shaved hairs, do it by choice. And there are also studies showing that weightlifting has a big incidence in making your hair fall. Compare the guys who do weightlifting in your gym with the soccer guys. Yeah, you got the picture.

    Greetings.
     
  9. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

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    The latest ICHR lecture schedule at their meeting can prett much show us what the professinal researchers are thinking and looking into............................and it is stem cells and cloning. Here is the schedule:




    Session 1 – Stem Cells
    08:00 – 10:00 Co-chairs: George Cotsarelis, Colin Jahoda, Takashi Matsuzaki, Kurt Stenn
    08:00 – 08:50 Cancer-initiating cells: From leukemia to solid tumors John Dick
    08:50 – 09:00 Questions
    09:00 – 09:15 Hair Follicle Stem Cells - Epithelial George Cotsarelis
    09:15 – 09:20 Questions
    09:20 – 09:30 Stem Cells of Human Hair Follicles Can Differentiate Into Neurons: Region-Specific Multipotency of Human Hair Follicle Stem Cells Yasuyuki Amoh
    09:30 – 09:40 Adult Stem Cell Compartment Changes in Androgenetic Alopecia Demonstrate Maintenance of Progenitor Stem Cells With Loss of Descendant CD200 High A6 Integrin High Expressing Cells Luis Garza
    09:40 – 09:50 Adult Hair Follicle Dermal Papillae Induce Hair and Skin Differentiation From Adult Corneal Epithelium James Waters
    09:50 – 10:00 Bone morphogenetic protein signaling is required for hair induction by dermal papilla cells Michael Rendl

    Session 2 – Mesenchymal Stem Cells
    Co-chairs: Andrew Messenger, Manabu Ohyama
    10:30 – 10:35 Overview tbc
    10:35 – 11:25 Skin-derived Precursors (SKPs) and Induction of Hair Follicle Morphogenesis Freda Miller
    11:25 – 11:50 Manipulating gene expression in the dermal papilla of the mouse in vivo Bruce Morgan
    11:50 - 12:15 Mesenchymal-Epithelial Interactions needed for tissue engineering of hair follicles Colin Jahoda

    Session 3 – Tissue Engineering
    13:45 – 15:00 Co-chairs: Satoshi Itami, Valerie Randall, Michael Philpott
    13:45 – 14:00 Tissue Engineering of Hair follicles Kurt Stenn
    14:00 – 14:10 Regeneration of Human-Mouse Chimeric Follicles in a Hybrid Patch Assay Ying Zheng
    14:10 – 14:20 Methods of Follicular Cell Implantation for Hair Multiplication
    Jeff Teumer
    14:20 – 14:30 Expression of TGF Beta2 in Cultured Human Dermal Papilla Cells and Its Ability of Induction of Tissue Engineered Hair Follicles Keita Inoue
    14:30 – 14:40 In Vitro Generation of Human Hair Follicle Bud Oriented Cellular Mass Composed of Dermal Papilla Cells and Keratinocytes Shigeyoshi Fuziwara
    14:40 – 14:50 The Hair-Inducing Clonal Cell Lines From Dermal Papilla and Dermal Sheath Cells of Mouse Vibrissa Follicles Aki Osada
    14:50-15:00 Large-Scale Production of Dermal Papilla Microtissues Via Facilitated Self-Assembling: Implications For Hair Follicle Engineering and Dermal Papilla Physiology Sung-Jan Lin

    Session 5 – Morphogenesis
    Follicular Cycling 08:00 – 10:30 Co-chairs: Cheng Ming Chuong, Phillip Hynd, Ralf Paus
    08:00 – 08:50 Ebling Lecturer: Wnt and Notch Signaling pathways in development and cancer of the gut Hans Clevers
    08:50 – 09:20 New Insights into Telogen Cheng Ming Chuong
    09:20 – 09:50 Wnt Signaling in the control of hair follicle development
    Sarah Millar
    09:50 – 10:00 Wnt-Dependent De Novo Hair Follicle Regeneration in Adult Mouse Skin Following Wounding Mayumi Ito
    10:00 – 10:10 P-Cadherin Is a p63 Target Gene With a Critical Role in the Developing Limb Bud and Hair Follicle. Angela Christiano
    10:10 – 10:20 The Wnt Inhibitor, Dickkopf 4, Is Induced By Canonical Wnt Signaling During Ectodermal Appendage Morphogenesis Hisham Bazzi
    10:20 – 10:30 Molecular Signature of the Follicular and Glandular Types of Epidermal Differentiation: Evidence That BMP Signaling Suppresses Trans-Differrentiation of the Foot Pad Epidermis Towards Folliculogenesis
    Vladimir Botchkarev

    Session 6 – Follicular Growth Controls 11:00 – 12:00 Co-chairs: Colin Jahoda, Sarah Millar, Hideoki Ogawa
    11:00 – 11:30 Controlling hair follicle morphogenesis through polyubiquitination Anthony Oro
    11:30 – 12:00 Hedgehog functions in the pilosebaceous unit Andrzej Dlugosz

    Session 12 – Hair Treatments: What’s on the Horizon
    13:30 – 15:05 Co-chairs: Shigaku Ikeda, Andrew Messenger, Jerry Shapiro
    14:10 – 14:25 Nanoparticle-based Targeting of Skin Antigen-Presenting Cells via Hair Follicles Annika Vogt
    Post reply
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Eichmann had a perfect hairline, just like you said. No recession at all :roll::

    [​IMG]

    Neither did Himmler:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. I_Hate_DHT

    I_Hate_DHT Established Member

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    lol... my message was ironic..

    you were the only one who answered like this... :lol:

    take a break man.. :p
     
  12. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Any news ;)
     
  13. Illusions

    Illusions Established Member My Regimen

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    2007, wow. Out of curiosity, how is your hair now all these years later?
     
  14. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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  15. Illusions

    Illusions Established Member My Regimen

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  16. shookwun

    shookwun Senior Member

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    old head generation was superior to generation nothingness :D



    These guys wrote stories, and essays to each other. Reading through this thread....

    As if they were hand writing letters



    Technology TKO'd us.
     
    Armando Jose likes this.
  17. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

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    Thank you for your words

    Not really a treatment, but I use a lotion based in jojoba from 26 years from now.

    BTW Docj077 now must be a doctor,
    I wish he were with us now, ...., so we could explain why the process of alopecia, in the common baldness, affects only a few hairy ....
     
    #197 Armando Jose, Nov 21, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016

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