What type of persons are more vulnerable to hairloss? | Page 3 | HairLossTalk Forums
Dismiss Notice
Forum Update: Aug 19. Feedback for the Admin? Upgrade coming: Click Here.

What type of persons are more vulnerable to hairloss?

Discussion in 'Men's General Hair Loss Discussions' started by Armando Jose, May 11, 2007.

  1. abcdefg

    abcdefg Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,375
    Likes Received:
    757
    Dislikes Received:
    50
    I think anyone that has a hair transplant is a moron. The pain and expense to only like your still old with a little more hair just seems stupid to me.
     
  2. hair today gone tomorrow

    hair today gone tomorrow Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2007
    Messages:
    2,220
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    3
    Yah, Mike and Bryan just OWNED you and you come back with this stupid question and some stupid ramble in Spanish. Whats the matter? cat got your tongue? No one is gonna buy that crap your selling.
     
  3. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    11
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Armando,

    I explored many of the other alternative theories when I first started to research hair. I had an open mind. I think they are all wrong. Stephen's idea has alot of coincidences that seem to back it up, but I can explain away all of them. For instance proanthocyandins invigorate hair, and they also aid lymph drainiage. However, in ex vivo tests (hairs in test tubes), proanthocyandins still invigorate hair by suppressing specific dermal papilla secreted growth inhibitors (barley proanthos for TGF beta), grape seed proanthos for PKC, etc. Silica probably inhibits IL-1 and hence why you see onion juice and cucumber juice in alot of old baldness remedies. In test tubes these things work and in vivo they help also.


    My "theory" in baldness is the accepted one doctors the world over agree with who have professionally looked into baldness. Namely that over time and as five alpha reductase becomes more active, androgen levels rise to a point to where scalp hairs become sensitive to them and the dermal papillas of these hairs release more negative growth factors as opposed to positive ones over time, thus shortening hair phases with less hairs growing. Something (maybe TGF beta 1 or 2) gets the immune system interested in the hair and marker cells congregate (this has all been observed) around the follicle base in larger than usual numbers and killer immune cells and T cells show up and start a long slow attack. Superoxides and inflammatory cytokines are sent at the follicle, damaging the blood vessels that feed it. Collagen gets secreted underneath it and the collagen in the root sheath and connective tissue sheath gets thicker and crosslinked and larger, thus making it hard for capillaries to feed the follicle nutrition and physically blocking the widening of the papilla in a new anagen phase and blocking downward migration to where the hair can get the nutrient supply it really needs. The standard stuff Armando.


    Im currently testing a cold pack on my right leg everyday while I type at the computer, so I guess Im putting Stephens theory to a kind of test right now. I dont expect better growth but will report in about four more months about what I see.

    I think cloning from ICX is the closest thing on the horizon that will truly help with baldness.
     
  4. michael barry

    michael barry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    11
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    LOUD SILENCE from Armando.

    I guess he finally looked at the finasteride (no effect at all on sebum) hair growth charts, http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/pro ... /index.jsp


    All one has to do is to click PLAY and see that finasteride grows hair, and men still have a 277 hair count increase per square inch over placebo at YEAR FIVE. No sebum affected at all.


    Here is yet another hair transplant repair photo of a man whose plugs grow just fine, but the hair behind them falling out. All hair is kept short, sebum drainiage should be the same, why?
    http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic1023.html


    Here is a great picture that utterly disproves Armando's zany theory, http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic1106.html
    The man in the picture has old hair plug transplants. He has elected to have them completely surgically removed. The kept growing even after he went completely bald behind them.



    Here is another pic of a guy who elected to do the same thing,'
    http://www.forhair.com/hairtransplant/topic972.html

    Hair around the plugs kept falling out, but plugs kept on growing. Sebum sure wasn't effecting them was it?
     
  5. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Dear Michael;

    Please visit any of the propecia forums to know how really work propecia. This is only the speech of manufacturer.

    And I don't know why you send me links with very bad results with hair trasplants. Excessive effort with very few cosmetically result, and I am convinced that passing the time the hair trasplanted are prone to be lost if the person continue with the hair excessive short.

    But I can be wrong.

    Armando
     
  6. powersam

    powersam Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,112
    Likes Received:
    6
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    on that same note, wouldnt one of the thousands of scalp biopsies done before baldness studies have shown these sebum backups? such a physical event would be hard to miss.
     
  7. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Armando, are you seriously questioning the published results of the Propecia trials? :roll:
     
  8. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Pondle:

    Why don't?

    BTW,
    Do you think they are serious about the incidence with side effects?

    Do you think they are serious about the price of finasteride (proscar vs. propecia?

    And, there is measurements by them of androgens in scalp hairs years before puberty in secret?


    Armando
     
  9. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Can you come up with a robust critique of the methodology used in the studies? I haven't heard one from you yet.

    No-one can prove otherwise unless they do a robust survey. Don't rely on self-selected paranoiacs who post on the internet.

    A separate issue.

    Armando, sex steroids greatly increase at puberty. That's why children don't go bald. :roll:
     
  10. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
  11. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Armando, I quote from the abstract... "Although there are differences in the age at onset, the disease starts after puberty when enough testosterone is available to be transformed into dihydrotestosterone... The onset of Androgenetic Alopecia is not expected to be seen in prepubertal patients without abnormal androgen levels. A common feature observed in our series of children with Androgenetic Alopecia was a strong genetic predisposition to the disease."

    Nothing contradicts what I have said.
     
  12. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    the abstract seem confused.

    In the full study, in discussion:

    "The diagnosis of Androgenetic Alopecia in our children was supported by pattern
    of alopecia, the presence of > 20% hair diameter diversity
    by dermoscopy and by the pathological findings of a terminal
    ⁄vellus hair ratio < 3 : 1."

    And more: "Our 20 children were therefore affected by Androgenetic Alopecia with prepubertal onset."

    All cases were diagnosed with androgenetic alopecia.


    Armando
     
  13. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Because of abnormal androgen levels - which is consistent with what I've said. And very, very few children will experience male pattern baldness, because testosterone production usually increases markedly at puberty not before it. Anyway, thought you didn't buy the theory that androgens cause male pattern baldness?
     
  14. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Pondle;

    you are wrong. In the study:"Laboratory examinations were performed in all our patients, including routine blood cell count and biochemical studies,
    sex hormone assays [follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing
    hormone, oestradiol, progesterone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone,
    prolactin, testosterone, dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate
    (DHEA-S), androstenedione], thyroid function, adrenocorticotrophic
    hormone, cortisol and growth hormone-releasing hormone.
    All results were within the normal range in relation to
    age and sex."

    Armando
     
  15. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Without a subscription I can't see the full text of the article. However, I would say that the abstract states that "the onset of Androgenetic Alopecia is not expected to be seen in prepubertal patients without abnormal androgen levels... the pathogenesis [in this instance] remains speculative" and "a common feature observed in our series of children with Androgenetic Alopecia was a strong genetic predisposition to the disease."

    Nothing here in these very rare cases "disproves" the role of androgens in male pattern baldness. This is pretty well established.

    I did a quick search of PubMed and found reference to one other study into balding children - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... med_docsum
     
  16. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Pondle;

    If you want I can send you a file.

    The work you mention is another from Italia, but they are not the same investigators. Thank you.

    You have reason when say that scientist want to introduce these cases in the current theory, but....

    Armando
     
  17. Pondle

    Pondle Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    1
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    I don't think these cases undermine the present theory, which looks pretty damn watertight to me. Reading the abstract of the initial study you linked to, we have a small group of children with a mysterious form of alopecia that looks like male pattern baldness. But we don't know really know the cause.

    Nothing here invalidates the fact that 99.99% of children (or whatever) do not experience baldness, and neither do castrates or men with 5AR deficiency. Neither does it invalidate the fact that women undergoing sex changes and given large doses of testosterone can lose their hair in an male pattern baldness pattern. And it shouldn't obscure the fact that balding scalp has been found to have higher levels of DHT compared to hair-containing scalp.
     
  18. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen
    Yes Pondle,



    I don't want defend the idea that hormones have not a role in hair biology and hair loss. I try to prove that hormones is not the initial cause of common baldness but problems with sebum flow.

    My theory also explain most of your points, and it is not so complicated than actual, by example with the pattern or the different incidence between sexes.


    Finally you say: "Neither does it invalidate the fact that women undergoing sex changes and given large doses of testosterone can lose their hair in an male pattern baldness pattern"
    Regarding this aspect, there is different results, in a example provided by Michael Barry (*) a "new" man with alopecia and other case unaffected. Curiously the bald new man have a short hair cut and the other a long hair. My explanation is simpler than androgenetic supposition.

    Armando

    (*) http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _107.jhtml
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    armando,

    u say without sebum there is no hair

    i say with armando there is no sense.

    i have a not oily scalp and lots of hair

    i also have thin hair and more of it, not thick.
     
  20. Armando Jose

    Armando Jose Senior Member My Regimen

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,823
    Likes Received:
    683
    Dislikes Received:
    49
    My Regimen:
    My Regimen
    My Regimen

Share This Page