What is the Profound Factor at Puberty?

[wookster]

http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreat ... ents.shtml

It seems that the first increase in hormones at puberty have a profound effect on determining the fate of hair follicles in adult life.

[...]

When men are castrated before puberty they never develop pattern baldness, even when there is a history of baldness in their families and even if they are given androgen hormone injections when they are adults. Equally these men have very little or no beard growth.

What happens at puberty during the first increase in androgens, to seal the fate of hair follicles?

 

[Bryan]

Maybe Stephen Foote is the only one who knows the REAL answer to that question!

Bryan

 

[wookster]

Maybe Stephen Foote is the only one who knows the REAL answer to that question!

Bryan

Good point

What physiological differences exist betweeen two genetically identical castrates, one pre-pubertal and the other post-pubertal, such, that the post-pubertal castrate balds and the other doesn't when given androgens?

Is it a lymphatic /immune system difference?

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

I wish I was castrated at birth. Imagine a NW0 hairline.

 

[Cassin]

I wish I was castrated at birth. Imagine a NW0 hairline.

That means your entire head would he hairy.

 

[S Foote.]

Maybe Stephen Foote is the only one who knows the REAL answer to that question!

Bryan

Good point

What physiological differences exist betweeen two genetically identical castrates, one pre-pubertal and the other post-pubertal, such, that the post-pubertal castrate balds and the other doesn't when given androgens?

Is it a lymphatic /immune system difference?

That could indeed be the case if what is claimed in that link is correct. There is no citation in the linked article to that claim, and i would be interested if anyone could provide the study that claim is based on.

It could be that androgen deprevation before puberty effects the vascular physiology among other things.

We do know from a study Michael Barry posted about identical female twins, that the sex change treated one "certainly" developed male pattern baldness and beard growth when treated with androgens!

So if the claim is true in your link, whats the difference? The "normal" female development isn't stopping the "normal" androgen effect on hair growth/loss?

It is very easy to make these claims about "genetic differences" and androgen induced "direct" actions on follicles. But the all important "WHOLE" body of modern research just cannot support this assumption.

S Foote.

 

[wookster]

We do know from a study Michael Barry posted about identical female twins, that the sex change treated one "certainly" developed male pattern baldness and beard growth when treated with androgens!

So if the claim is true in your link, whats the difference? The "normal" female development isn't stopping the "normal" androgen effect on hair growth/loss?

It is very easy to make these claims about "genetic differences" and androgen induced "direct" actions on follicles. But the all important "WHOLE" body of modern research just cannot support this assumption.

S Foote.

It seems that prepubertal castrates should also go bald when injected with testosterone?

http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstrac ... 8?prt=true

We report 20 prepubertal children with Androgenetic Alopecia, 12 girls and eight boys, age range 6-10 years, observed over the last 4 years. All had normal physical development. Clinical examination showed hair loss with thinning and widening of the central parting of the scalp, both in boys and girls. In eight cases frontal accentuation and breach of frontal hairline were also present. The clinical diagnosis was confirmed by pull test, trichogram and dermoscopy in all cases, and by scalp biopsy performed in six cases. There was a strong family history of Androgenetic Alopecia in all patients. The onset of Androgenetic Alopecia is not expected to be seen in prepubertal patients without abnormal androgen levels. A common feature observed in our series of children with Androgenetic Alopecia was a strong genetic predisposition to the disease. Although the pathogenesis remains speculative, endocrine evaluation and a strict follow-up are strongly recommended.

 

[michael barry]

I have seen a couple of articles over the past few years (I think one might have been a webmd link, but really cant remember) that suggested that ELEVATED androgens in pubery might be a cause of later baldness.

Tom Hagerty has posted before that the galea gets abnormally thick in puberty in some males. Perhaps this physiological change gets more androgens transcribed up there by making the environment around the follicles more stagnant, thus giving androgens extra chances to bind with receptor sites? Thats just a wild guess, however.

 

[michael barry]

Wookie,

Further on in that article, McElwee writes this:..................

"When men are castrated before puberty they never develop pattern baldness, even when there is a history of baldness in their families and even if they are given androgen hormone injections when they are adults. Equally these men have very little or no beard growth. Their public hair is usually in a female pattern and very sparse and there is no obvious increase in body hair growth after giving androgen injections.

In contrast, men castrated during or after puberty do not spontaneously develop pattern baldness, but if they are given androgen hormone injections pattern alopecia develops. They also have little beard growth but beards do develop if the men are given androgen injections.

Clearly the first exposure of hair follicles to androgens during puberty ensures a permanent switch occurs in androgen receptive hair follicles. Beard and pubic hair follicles are fated to grow thick coarse hair. Scalp hair follicles are made susceptible to androgenetic alopecia. Drastic changes in androgen levels in adult life may have minor effects on these hair follicles, but beard and pubic hair follicles cannot be completely switched off by reducing androgen hormone levels using drugs or otherwise"





Wookie,
Did you catch the part about "there being no obvious increase in body hair growth after being given androgen injections (of pre-pubertal castrates getting injects later in life)"?

Wook,
Does that not kind of "seals the deal" to you my friend? You can shoot up pre-pubertal castrates at 35 years of age with testosterone, but their BODY hair does not increase in size or volume and stays small.

However we KNOW for a fact that if you shoot up a female who went through puberty normally with male hormone she WILL GROW A BEARD and lose her head hair in the male pattern baldness fashion if her genetics are prone to that (look at her dad). We also know that shooting up post pubertal castrates with testosterone will see an increase in body hair and the development of a beard.


This would seem to indicate that body hairs also "change'" their response to androgens sometime in puberty to "the point of no return" also, just as head hair does. In my opinion, it just sounds like mitochondrial DNA expressing itself in individuals.


There was a study posted on hairsite by admin a while back that detailed that certain men with finger-length ratios (ring finger to index finger or some such) that correlate with higher androgens from birth mothers also HAVING A GREATER TENDENCY TO BALD. Higher pre-natal androgens equaled this particular finger length phenomena, and the same men balded more often. Thats another arrow in the quiver of genetic proclivity to baldness in my estimation anyway.


If the lymphatic profiles of human skin (in males, not females) is thus affected in the human dermis during puberty......................then this must take place all over the body and also determine the fate of body hairiness. Thats an awful large pill to swallow as it has never been observed or commented on.

 

[docj077]

The sudden hormone spike and constant level of androgens associated with puberty are what is needed for receptor DNA transcription to be upregulated and receptor numbers to increase allowing for the full effect of androgen dependent physiological changes to take place.

Receptors are upregulated for hormones like Growth Hormone in the bone and in muscle. The same holds true for androgen receptors in the muscle.

It's not poor science to assume that androgen receptors or androgen dependant genes coding for proandrogen enzymes are simply upregulated in all androgen dependent tissues including the scalp hair follicle during puberty and castration before puberty prevents this process from ever occurring.

 

[michael barry]

Doctor,

How would that hormone spike affect the androgen receptor expression in FEMALES? We know that women who get shot up with testosterone in later life will bald to where genetics would have them to, yet they never experienced a androgen spike during pubtery............................


Its a quandry aint' it?

 

[wookster]

Doctor,

How would that hormone spike affect the androgen receptor expression in FEMALES? We know that women who get shot up with testosterone in later life will bald to where genetics would have them to, yet they never experienced a androgen spike during pubtery............................


Its a quandry aint' it?

The hormone spike must also do something to the immune system that doesn't happen to the pre-pubertal castrates/eunuchs. Whatever happens at puberty would be caused by testosterone and/or estrogen??? ensativo: :alien: ensativo: Or there are flaws with that study? :wink:

 

[Bryan]

The sudden hormone spike and constant level of androgens associated with puberty are what is needed for receptor DNA transcription to be upregulated and receptor numbers to increase allowing for the full effect of androgen dependent physiological changes to take place.

It's not poor science to assume that androgen receptors or androgen dependant genes coding for proandrogen enzymes are simply upregulated in all androgen dependent tissues including the scalp hair follicle during puberty and castration before puberty prevents this process from ever occurring.

The only thing that bothers me about that theory is the evidence showing that androgen actually DOWNREGULATES the production of androgen receptors in scalp hair follicles in adults. I tend to think that there's something else going on...

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

The hormone spike must also do something to the immune system that doesn't happen to the pre-pubertal castrates/eunuchs.

I don't understand. Why do you believe that?

Bryan

 

[wookster]

The hormone spike must also do something to the immune system that doesn't happen to the pre-pubertal castrates/eunuchs.

I don't understand. Why do you believe that?

Bryan

Just a guess on my part that could be wrong. Why do females who never went through male puberty, suffer from male pattern baldness after being injected with testosterone yet males who became pre-pubesent eunuchs never get male pattern baldness when they are injected with testosterone as adults?

http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreat ... ents.shtml

When men are castrated before puberty they never develop pattern baldness, even when there is a history of baldness in their families and even if they are given androgen hormone injections when they are adults.

Females never experience the testosterone spike of male puberty, so why do females go bald when injected with testosterone but men who are castrated before puberty do not go bald when given testosterone as adults. There must be something about the puberty hormone spike - with estrogen for females and testosterone for males that causes suseptibility towards baldness in later life when testosterone is present.

Or the quote about pre-pubesent castrates "never developing pattern baldness", is in error.

 

[michael barry]

Wook,

This is just a wild-assed guess on my part, but I remember reading some speculation that when negative growth factors released by the dermal papilla (like fibroblast growth factor five, thrombospondin, and "others") outnumber positive growth factors released in response to DHT being transcribed by androgen receptors..........................................................then perhaps the immune system sees the follicle as a "distressed" organ and begins a "modulated" attack that can be lessened by removing DHT or blocking receptors. However..............there might be some remnant of the attack binding to one of the many receptor sites of a hair follicle that ARE NOT androgen receptors that negates any stem-cell induced instructions to "re-enlarge". Or perhaps collagen deposition around miniaturized follicles inhibit their re-enlargement and skin-remodellers like peptides and collagen-and fibrosis fighting compounds might be able to undo some skin damage around those recently lost follicles enough to let them re-enlarge.

We know that capase 3 activation begins the orderly destruction of "distressed" tissues.


There has been a little excitement at hairsite lately regarding a couple of italian scientist who are claiming they can bissect a follicle up to ten times and get the correct dermal papilla/epilitheal stem cell mix to make quite a few new hairs (put one of the ten back in the donor area, and the other nine in the recepient area). James Bond, a guy who really knows that kind of stuff, has posted before that its the upper portion of the follicle that is always present in all three phases and thus must be the portion that holds the genetic info for the follicle and where the bad info is located therein.


After reading that even high levels of testosterone can make wreath area hairs minitaturize (as well as DHT) in a dose dependent fashion.................Im kinda inclined to believe that if you give enough testosterone to just about anyone for a long enough period of time, you could make their head hair susceptible to baldness unless they had androgen-insensitivity syndrome or something.

 

[Bryan]

The hormone spike must also do something to the immune system that doesn't happen to the pre-pubertal castrates/eunuchs.

I don't understand. Why do you believe that?

Just a guess on my part that could be wrong. Why do females who never went through male puberty, suffer from male pattern baldness after being injected with testosterone yet males who became pre-pubesent eunuchs never get male pattern baldness when they are injected with testosterone as adults?

Those are two (presumably?) separate issues. I was mainly interested in why you would think that the immune system would be crucially altered in some way by puberty that has some relevance to balding.

BTW, I personally tend to feel a bit dubious about those claims regarding the future balding of boys who are castrated either before or after puberty and are later given androgens, or girls and their prospect for eventually developing Androgenetic Alopecia after being given testosterone, etc. Those things seem to be based on anecdotes, and I think the anecdotes are possibly apocryphal. For example, there's the case of that famous "twin study" that's been widely cited in the medical literature (one twin was supposedly castrated and kept his hair while his brother went bald, then the first twin went bald after being given testosterone injections), but I have NEVER EVER been able to find any actual documentation for such an alleged event, even after following a trail of references and citations in several medical journal studies. I think those claims should be treated with a great deal of caution.

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Bryan wrote:
"or girls and their prospect for eventually developing Androgenetic Alopecia after being given testosterone, etc. Those things seem to be based on anecdotes, and I think the anecdotes are possibly apocryphal. "


Bryan,
http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _109.jhtml
The picture of these two twin sisters here pretty much convinced me that women simply need male hormones to go bald. Notice how the sister that looks like a man on the right has a beard and bitemporal recession and looks just like a man? She isn't a man though and has not went through a sex change at that point.

Here is another pic of the two sisters http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _106.jhtml


This is a pic of another woman who has shot herself up with testosterone injects. Look at her beard, thinner hair, greyer more aged hair and wrinkled face http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200509/ ... _103.jhtml

Now look at her TWIN sister.........[url]http://www.oprah.com/tow ... _102.jhtml[/url]




Bryan, I remember the East German Olympic women back in the early eighties on TV. I remember seeing that they had some bi-temporal recession. We now know they were on huge amounts of steroids and their hormonal levels were closer to a mans hormonal profile. That kinda seals the deal to me. Ive looked around for some transgender web sites discussing female to male transexuals and hair loss and havent found anything. Im certain that there must be a few and that they have lost hair when given testosterone, just not mentioned on the net.

 

[michael barry]

Here is an PPT file download from a university link by some Doctor or another that describes some problems faced by female to male transexuals (as well as Male to female ones) here :
http://www.yescenter.org/OutreachMateri ... Issues.pdf


In the file, the author states that these PERMANENT changes can take place in female-to-male transexuals who undergo Hormonal therapy (testosterone injects).....

Beard and mustache growth
BALDNESS, HAIRLOSS, ESPECIALLY AT THE TEMPLES AND CROWN OF THE HEAD
Increased growth of body hair
Atrophy in the utereus and ovaries, resulting in sterility
Deepening of the voice
Enlargement of the clitoris

 

[michael barry]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gender/story/ ... 77,00.html



This verbiage was included in that article from Britans Guardian newspaper.........:

"What does hormonal therapy involve?
Male-to-female patients treated with oestrogens can expect to experience: breast growth, some redistribution of body fat in line with a more feminine appearance; decreased upper body strength; softening of the skin; a decrease in body hair; slowing or stopping of loss of scalp hair; decreased fertility and testicular size; and less frequent, less firm erections. Female-to-male patients treated with testosterone can expect the following permanent changes: a deepening of the voice; clitoral enlargement; reduction in breast size; more facial and body hair; and male pattern baldness. Reversible changes include: increased upper body strength; weight gain; increased sex drive; and decreased hip fat"




I haven't been able to trip up on more pictures of female to male transexuals with lost hair (people probably dont tend to want to commemorate such things), but have read that it happens in other places online. When I first started looking at hair and why it goes, I looked at various alternate theories (sebum, etc.) and wanted to verify that it was indeed male hormones that made this happen. I'll take a gander some night to see if I can find a pic or two.