astral week
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 1
bubka said:
I believe you have already made this statement in this thread.
time to seriously reevaluate propecia
- Thread starter astral week
- Start date
I believe you have already made this statement in this thread.
I agree with Bubka, but you'll never ever convince the "Propecia-sceptical" members of our community to accept any official data from the FDA, Merck or Big Pharma in general. I've run up against this problem several times when debating with guys in the side effects subforum who would rather base their arguments on posts from bodybuilding forums (I kid you not) - like they have any quality control! Our "sceptical" friends accuse those of us who are suspicious about extreme side effect claims, and who take the official data at face value, of being "Merck trolls". Of course, Big Pharma has not always covered itself in glory, but if we disbelieve all official data the reductio ad absurdum of this argument is that professional medical practice is either impossible or simply not worthwhile, since all pharmaceutical information is either a lie, or may be a lie. :roll:
astral week
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 1
Stu85 said:
Well if you are depressed, then of course that can definitely have an impact. From my own personal experience my libido was not affected by mild/moderate depression, it was only when I sunk very low that my libido dropped.
You can always quit finasteride for a week and see how that helps. If you suddenly have a stronger libido I would just drop the doseage.
May I ask why you took dutasteride initially instead of finasteride?
Stu85
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 1
astral week said:
Of course you can, I wouldn't say no to a Velvet Underground fan, heh.
I was silly and impatient for results. I started finasteride about a year ago, and though I think I was seeing results I decided to hop onto dutasteride. I felt that I hadn't had any side-effects up until that point, so i guess I assumed that I wouldn't experience any on the stronger dutasteride either. To be honest, I was - and still am - utterly terrified of losing my hair, so terrified I was willing to jump to the strongest treatment available. I took dutasteride for most of the summer without incident, but by around September I was worried that my libido had taken a nose-dive. Another factor was a girl I met, and once the fear of not being able to adequately perform got into my head, it was hard to get it back out again. So, I switched back to finasteride, but things haven't improved too much. I still feel my libido is a lot lower than it used to be.
But, as I said, I also suffer from depression (no thanks to aforementioned girl), and to top it off my diet is pretty bad these days (even by Scottish standards) - these things could well be contributing.
Heh, you're right, I should try going for a week without finasteride and see if it makes a difference, though I want to make sure that dutasteride is completely out of my system first, and I know it can remain for many months.
I thought all the horror stories were made up and took finasteride thinking the sides were minimal and would stop after treatment. I did get horrible sides which I still have and regret taking finasteride every day. I have visited several doctors and the last uro I talked too told me that he refuses to prescribe finasteride and have had other patients with horrible physical and mental changes due to this drug.
Only after reading about the purpose of DHT and 5AR in the body does all of this make even a bit sense. My life is ruined because of my vanity. And no, I'm not crazy, I used to be a completely healthy and fit lawyer in a large law firm. I now need to quit my job in order to think about what I'm supposed to do next. Thank you Merck.
Only after reading about the purpose of DHT and 5AR in the body does all of this make even a bit sense. My life is ruined because of my vanity. And no, I'm not crazy, I used to be a completely healthy and fit lawyer in a large law firm. I now need to quit my job in order to think about what I'm supposed to do next. Thank you Merck.
I wish I knew. The doctors don't either. I think it's a combination of the prostate, hormones and the nerve system. and This really wasn't something I was expecting as a result from improving my hair! I used to be pretty good looking but was unhappy with my hair - I googled this forum and thought finasteride was the thing I was looking for. As you could imagine, hair is the last thing on my mind right now.
I do understand that these sides are extremely rare but can (apparently!) happen. I hope I'll get better with time as the docs don't seem to be able to help. I will try to fix my hormones and perhaps try testo injections. If it seems hopeless and doesn't get better, I don't see a point in any of this.
I even asked a doctor friend (a professor and dermatologist) at the biggest hospital in our country to ask a round for similar cases - there have been at least three in our country. If you think about this, the function of DHT and 5AR combined with sites like askapatient.com and propeciahelp.com, you would be a fool to think it's just a case of coincidence.
Sorry about the negative post, but I'm just really shocked and pissed at the moment. Just hope to save some other guy from wrecking his life and health.
edit: oh you ment the sides: depresssion, anxiety, libido drop, moobs, texture changes in my dick, loss of sensation etc. My dick feels and looks weird and veiny.
I do understand that these sides are extremely rare but can (apparently!) happen. I hope I'll get better with time as the docs don't seem to be able to help. I will try to fix my hormones and perhaps try testo injections. If it seems hopeless and doesn't get better, I don't see a point in any of this.
I even asked a doctor friend (a professor and dermatologist) at the biggest hospital in our country to ask a round for similar cases - there have been at least three in our country. If you think about this, the function of DHT and 5AR combined with sites like askapatient.com and propeciahelp.com, you would be a fool to think it's just a case of coincidence.
Sorry about the negative post, but I'm just really shocked and pissed at the moment. Just hope to save some other guy from wrecking his life and health.
edit: oh you ment the sides: depresssion, anxiety, libido drop, moobs, texture changes in my dick, loss of sensation etc. My dick feels and looks weird and veiny.
retropunk said:
Yes, the skin is darker and more wrinkly and the whole thing feels like rubber. As I said before - I thought so too. You can read my post history and see how it began. I usually never even bother to read the possible side-effects. This has by far been the most disturbing and scary episode of my life
Edit: My problems really started about 4 weeks after my last pill, like my system went crazy or something.
RaginDemon
Senior Member
- Reaction score
- 3
I love to see little girls blaming every system failure on Propecia...that's classic.
Little girl? I'm a perfectly sane 25-year-old corporate lawyer with no major health problems in the past. I won't bother writing on this board any more and will concentrate on getting better (it has already cost me over 1000 euros with no signs of improvement), just thought I would give a heads up that for some unlucky one's this drug's side effects can be devastating.
I have no reason to make this up.
I have no reason to make this up.
astral week
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 1
OK this thread has pretty much been tapped of all usefullness.
For some reason die-hard propecia enthusiasts just refuse to believe that perfectly sane people can have significant sides, and act as the sheep of the pharmaceutical industry. "Merck says only 2% of people have any side effects, the majority of which will disappear after a few weeks" is NOT a valid argument. We've established what Merck has concluded. Any fool has seen this "statistic" a million times.
And there are also hypochondriacs that will continue to believe that propecia is responsible for everything wrong in their lives.
The point of the thread was to look at a more cumulative view of all the negative feedback and take a rational perspective of propecia, and as for me, encouraging people to take a lower dose of finasteride to limit these sides.
For some reason die-hard propecia enthusiasts just refuse to believe that perfectly sane people can have significant sides, and act as the sheep of the pharmaceutical industry. "Merck says only 2% of people have any side effects, the majority of which will disappear after a few weeks" is NOT a valid argument. We've established what Merck has concluded. Any fool has seen this "statistic" a million times.
And there are also hypochondriacs that will continue to believe that propecia is responsible for everything wrong in their lives.
The point of the thread was to look at a more cumulative view of all the negative feedback and take a rational perspective of propecia, and as for me, encouraging people to take a lower dose of finasteride to limit these sides.
Astral, there are dogmatic positions on either side and I don't think the argument is going to progress. I myself have dismissed many of the claims made by anti-Propecia posters, partly because certain contributors are, as you say, determined to blame Propecia for almost every conceivable ill. I've argued robustly against many of these people, and it's guaranteed I won't be getting any Xmas cards from certain folks this year! 
However, a recent NBER working paper gave me a little pause for thought. There is the possibility of certain events being so rare that they elude clinical trials, even the multi-thousand man studies that Propecia was subjected to.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/11 ... -problems/
On the other hand, until we have actual published case histories or some other kind of objective evidence, the claims for the more extreme adverse reactions and 'permanent' sides are limited to anecdotes on the internet. There's just no way of ascertaining the validity, accuracy and objectivity of the claims we've seen so far.
However, a recent NBER working paper gave me a little pause for thought. There is the possibility of certain events being so rare that they elude clinical trials, even the multi-thousand man studies that Propecia was subjected to.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/11 ... -problems/
On the other hand, until we have actual published case histories or some other kind of objective evidence, the claims for the more extreme adverse reactions and 'permanent' sides are limited to anecdotes on the internet. There's just no way of ascertaining the validity, accuracy and objectivity of the claims we've seen so far.
astral week
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 1
Pondle said:Astral, there are dogmatic positions on either side and I don't think the argument is going to progress. I myself have dismissed many of the claims made by anti-Propecia posters, partly because certain contributors are, as you say, determined to blame Propecia for almost every conceivable ill. I've argued robustly against many of these people, and it's guaranteed I won't be getting any Xmas cards from certain folks this year!
However, a recent NBER working paper gave me a little pause for thought. There is the possibility of certain events being so rare that they elude clinical trials, even the multi-thousand man studies that Propecia was subjected to.
http://healthcare-economist.com/2007/11 ... -problems/
On the other hand, until we have actual published case histories or some other kind of objective evidence, the claims for the more extreme adverse reactions and 'permanent' sides are limited to anecdotes on the internet. There's just no way of ascertaining the validity, accuracy and objectivity of the claims we've seen so far.
I agree that when compared to the clinical tests done by what generally seem to be legitimate sources, internet testimonials don't pack quite the same punch. I'll admit that I probably discriminated against those testimonials myself until I exhibited some similar problems. But it wasn't the fact that I had any of these problems and therefore changed my mind about their prevalence, it was more that I hadn't really looked into them until they affected me. Probably stupid but typical.
It's easy to discount some if not most of people's claims about propecia's harmful effects, but there are many many many claims made by men who don't give me the impression that they are lying/exaggerating/mentally unbalanced. This forum ALONE suggests that 2% may be a bit low, even if we discount the MAJORITY of claims.
At the very least, hopefully what someone will take from reading this and similar threads is that it may be wise to research more if they haven't already, as well as start with a low dose and slowly and safely work their way up to the "recommended" doseage.
joseph49853
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 12
Seems as though Pondle is doing a better job of convincing himself than us. I guess you either trust your own body better than Merck, and big pharma, or you don't.
Meanwhile the news continues to be littered with stories about drug company scandals, cover-ups, and kickbacks. Or you can spend your days buried headfirst in preapproved pharmaceutical-sponsored studies and manuals.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=42016
Meanwhile the news continues to be littered with stories about drug company scandals, cover-ups, and kickbacks. Or you can spend your days buried headfirst in preapproved pharmaceutical-sponsored studies and manuals.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=42016
I'm trying to see all sides of the debate, but I'm far from persuaded by the internet anecdotes offered by the Propecia-bashing lobby. Papers in peer-reviewed journals are the gold standard in scientific discussion, and until one supporting their position is produced, or some other credible body endorses their position, I won't be changing my mind.
I don't think general points about the FDA or Big Pharma help to illuminate the specific discussion of finasteride. It's also worth remembering that there is a counter-argument to those who want more or more robust regulation, summed up in this article - http://www.independent.org/publications ... asp?id=279
The author points out that "the FDA delays, stifles, and suppresses life-saving drugs and devices. Such drugs and devices as Practolol, Interleukin-2, Taxotere, Vasoseal, Ancrod, Glucophage, Navelbine, Lamictal, Ethyol, Photofrin, Rilutek, Citicoline, Panorex, Femara, Prostar, Omnicath, and Transform have been subject to long delays, killing tens of thousands and causing awful suffering". He also quotes Milton Friedman, the famous economist: "the FDA has done enormous harm to the health of the American public by greatly increasing the costs of pharmaceutical research, thereby reducing the supply of new and effective drugs, and by delaying the approval of such drugs as survive the tortuous FDA process."
In other words, whether you have more regulation or less, someone is likely to suffer somewhere along the line - whether it's a patient who takes a 'dangerous' drug that was insufficiently tested, or a patient denied timely access to an exciting new treatment by bureaucractic procedures. We'll never live in a perfect world!
I don't think general points about the FDA or Big Pharma help to illuminate the specific discussion of finasteride. It's also worth remembering that there is a counter-argument to those who want more or more robust regulation, summed up in this article - http://www.independent.org/publications ... asp?id=279
The author points out that "the FDA delays, stifles, and suppresses life-saving drugs and devices. Such drugs and devices as Practolol, Interleukin-2, Taxotere, Vasoseal, Ancrod, Glucophage, Navelbine, Lamictal, Ethyol, Photofrin, Rilutek, Citicoline, Panorex, Femara, Prostar, Omnicath, and Transform have been subject to long delays, killing tens of thousands and causing awful suffering". He also quotes Milton Friedman, the famous economist: "the FDA has done enormous harm to the health of the American public by greatly increasing the costs of pharmaceutical research, thereby reducing the supply of new and effective drugs, and by delaying the approval of such drugs as survive the tortuous FDA process."
In other words, whether you have more regulation or less, someone is likely to suffer somewhere along the line - whether it's a patient who takes a 'dangerous' drug that was insufficiently tested, or a patient denied timely access to an exciting new treatment by bureaucractic procedures. We'll never live in a perfect world!