Theory: Cooked Fat =DHT(Dihydrotestosterone) Baldness

[Old Baldy]

DLM: Doctor is so correct in what he is saying about disease that you lose credibility when you argue against his basic premise. Alot of us here have done quite a bit of reading and thinking about this subject for a long time. I can't argue against what Doctor is saying in the main. He is correct IMHO.

Sure diet helps, but it isn't a guarantee that you will prevent diseases from developing. I think you, sometimes, have the cart before the horse if you know what I mean.

The best diet in the world will not prevent male pattern baldness because it is a genetic driven disease IMHO. You might be able to effect it a little bit if you eat well but you can't prevent it by eating perfectly IMHO.

I believe caucasians have a higher rate of male pattern baldness due to genetics. Just like some races or ethnic groups have a higher chance of contracting other diseases like leukemia, sickle cell anemia, etc. It's genetics IMHO.

You think it's diet that causes genetic traits over the long term. I, as a layman, say it's WAY more than just diet.

You keep talking about Eskimos and people living in their climate and/or people eating their type of diet as being immune to male pattern baldness. Yet you forget to mention that people living like that live substantially shorter lives and have higher rates of cancer.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/di ... onger.html

 

[docj077]

Apparently, the thread creator continues to fail to understand that many of us here are true vegans, many are semi-vegetarians, and the rest watch what they eat quite well.

Many of us have had our hormones levels checked and they came back either completely normal, mildly elevated, or even low. Yet, we all have male pattern baldness.

He also fails to understand that many of us are quite young and there has been no change in our physiological set points with regards to blood pressure and the like. Our cholesterol and triglyceride levels are in check. However, the thread creator desires to completely remove cholesterol and fat from his and our diets. That's a physical impossibility that will lead to nutritional deficiencies and death.

Lastly, the thread creator believes that poor diet significantly increases testosterone and DHT levels in the long term. This is a physiological impossibility. High testosterone and estrogen levels negatively regulate the release of LH and FSH from the anterior pituitary, so any change is minor. This concept can be seen with 5 alpha reductase inhibitors. The increase in testosterone is only around 10% while anywhere between 60% -90% of DHT production can be inhibited. That means that the body has to be negatively regulating the entire process to keep testosterone levels in check. The body will do the exact same with any spike or increase.

This theory was crap before it was ever created. One only need to look to the often completely vegan diets of individuals from India and this forum so see that a perfect diet can lead to male pattern baldness.

 

[bubka]

theories are either good or bad, and this one is below bad

 

[s.a.f]

theories are either good or bad, and this one is below bad

As are most on here.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Apparently, the thread creator continues to fail to understand that many of us here are true vegans, many are semi-vegetarians, and the rest watch what they eat quite well.

Who said veganism is the correct diet? Vegans eat a diet which is often deficient in raw fat.

Many of us have had our hormones levels checked and they came back either completely normal, mildly elevated, or even low. Yet, we all have male pattern baldness.

Who's to say what the correct level of DHT is for your body?

DHT levels CAN be altered by diet and there is scientific proof.

He also fails to understand that many of us are quite young and there has been no change in our physiological set points with regards to blood pressure and the like. Our cholesterol and triglyceride levels are in check.

In check according to what standards? the 'normal' range proposed by medics can be very wide. You may be on the low end of normal but the ideal condition for your body could be on the high end of 'normal'.

However, the thread creator desires to completely remove cholesterol and fat from his and our diets.

Fallacy. You made this up.

If anything I propose the opposite. I think that fat should be in excess of 60% of our diet. However, I believe that fat should be in raw form as this is what our our genes have evolved on for 3,600,000 years of the 4,000,000 years we have been on this planet.

Lastly, the thread creator believes that poor diet significantly increases testosterone and DHT levels in the long term. This is a physiological impossibility.

I believe DHT levels are elevated by the wrong ratio of macronutrients in the diet. This is far from impossible and I have already provided studies which prove it.

High testosterone and estrogen levels negatively regulate the release of LH and FSH from the anterior pituitary, so any change is minor. This concept can be seen with 5 alpha reductase inhibitors. The increase in testosterone is only around 10% while anywhere between 60% -90% of DHT production can be inhibited. That means that the body has to be negatively regulating the entire process to keep testosterone levels in check. The body will do the exact same with any spike or increase..

Why are you talking about FSH and pituitary gland. Listen, its quite simple and its set out in the links which I provided. (which you probably haven't bothered to read).

This theory was crap before it was ever created. One only need to look to the often completely vegan diets of individuals from India and this forum so see that a perfect diet can lead to male pattern baldness.

For some strange reason you think veganism is the correct diet. Its far from it. It is deficient in raw fat.

theories are either good or bad, and this one is below bad

Based on what? I have provided the science to back up my argument.

You cant speculate that. There isn't enough evidence to prove anything. Unless you can find every picture of everyone who lived back then. But your not going to. Who says that pictures of native americans didn't have balders under those headdresses? Or eskimos? It's all just a crazy theory then. the population was probably lower then so the occurance of it was lower to non existant. Or they could of been seen as tainted and killed off. we dont know.

Its NOT speculation. Thats the whole point. These things are well-documented. There have been isolated communities up until the 1940s so there ARE photos. I will provide you with the sources if you want.

DLM: Doctor is so correct in what he is saying about disease that you lose credibility when you argue against his basic premise.

I disagree with his basic premise. His basic premise is what Western Medicine is founded upon and it is centered around treating symptoms and not the cause. There are many many many people out there who think in a similar way.

Sure diet helps, but it isn't a guarantee that you will prevent diseases from developing. I think you, sometimes, have the cart before the horse if you know what I mean..

An apple a day keeps the doctor away. Of course diet stops diseases, it strengthens our immune system amongst many other facilities.

The best diet in the world will not prevent male pattern baldness because it is a genetic driven disease IMHO. You might be able to effect it a little bit if you eat well but you can't prevent it by eating perfectly IMHO..

Again I disagree. Diet switches genes on and off. I have provided sources to support this.

I believe caucasians have a higher rate of male pattern baldness due to genetics. Just like some races or ethnic groups have a higher chance of contracting other diseases like leukemia, sickle cell anemia, etc. It's genetics IMHO...

Races which previously had less male pattern baldness or rarely had male pattern baldness have started to develop it when coming to the US and eating a high carb/sugar diet.

You think it's diet that causes genetic traits over the long term. I, as a layman, say it's WAY more than just diet....

Diet + Environment

You keep talking about Eskimos and people living in their climate and/or people eating their type of diet as being immune to male pattern baldness. Yet you forget to mention that people living like that live substantially shorter lives and have higher rates of cancer.

They did not have higher rates of cancer and if you check the link you provided, it is written by a medical doctor and his sources (of which there are only two) are dead.

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/di ... onger.html[/quote]

 

[bubka]

Fallacy. You made this up.

If anything I propose the opposite. I think that fat should be in excess of 60% of our diet. However, I believe that fat should be in raw form as this is what our our genes have evolved on for 3,600,000 years of the 4,000,000 years we have been on this planet

talk about "mak[ing] this up" homo sapien sapien has not even been around for half a million years... wow

theories are either good or bad, and this one is below bad

Based on what? I have provided the science to back up my argument.

what evidence? you have no one direct study that links your food theory to sustained testosterone levels, let along that raised t levels effecting dht, which then raise dht levels causing male pattern baldness...

seriously, this would be alright to draw a conclusion for an 8th grade science paper. you have ABSOLUTELY ZERO direct evidence, even yourself is bald and how is this diet going :roll: :lol:

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Fallacy. You made this up.

If anything I propose the opposite. I think that fat should be in excess of 60% of our diet. However, I believe that fat should be in raw form as this is what our our genes have evolved on for 3,600,000 years of the 4,000,000 years we have been on this planet

talk about "mak[ing] this up" homo sapien sapien has not even been around for half a million years... wow

believe it or not, we haven't always been homo-sapiens

 

[bubka]

and the genes are exactly the same then that cause male pattern baldness back then... or diet rather, give me a break, you will try to argue anything

seriosly, what was the direct scientific study that shows how diet effects dht levels causing male pattern baldness again?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

Fallacy. You made this up.

If anything I propose the opposite. I think that fat should be in excess of 60% of our diet. However, I believe that fat should be in raw form as this is what our our genes have evolved on for 3,600,000 years of the 4,000,000 years we have been on this planet

talk about "mak[ing] this up" homo sapien sapien has not even been around for half a million years... wow

theories are either good or bad, and this one is below bad

Based on what? I have provided the science to back up my argument.

what evidence? you have no one direct study that links your food theory to sustained testosterone levels, let along that raised t levels effecting dht, which then raise dht levels causing male pattern baldness...

seriously, this would be alright to draw a conclusion for an 8th grade science paper. you have ABSOLUTELY ZERO direct evidence, even yourself is bald and how is this diet going :roll: :lol:

believe it or not we haven't always been homo-sapiens, note the use of the word 'evolved'

I have provided the scientific studies, you just didn't read them

an yeah, im not bald, nor do I do this diet

and the genes are exactly the same then that cause male pattern baldness back then... or diet rather, give me a break, you will try to argue anything

On the contrary, it is you who will argue anything. I am quite specific about what I am arguing.

 

[bubka]

I have provided the scientific studies, you just didn't read them

an yeah, im not bald, nor do I do this diet

where are they, because i missed them?

you are not bald, but you come on this forum because? :roll: i mean, shouldn't you do this diet so you don't want to be balled??? oh right, you probably want to be balled, thats what you will argue next probably

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

I have provided the scientific studies, you just didn't read them

an yeah, im not bald, nor do I do this diet

where are they, because i missed them?

you are not bald, but you come on this forum because? :roll:

I was shedding hair. I'll repost them for you, hold up.

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/i ... iet-01.htm

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/i ... diet02.htm

 

[bubka]

so you just stopped going balled without doing your diet, which you claim will prevent hairloss?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

so you just stopped going balled without doing your diet, which you claim will prevent hairloss?

people shed hair without going bald.

ITS NOT MY DIET. ITS THE DIET OF THE NATIVE AMERICANS AND ESKIMOS AND IS CLOSE TO THE JAPANESE PRE-WAR DIET.

IT KEEPS HORMONES IN BALANCE!! INCLUDING DHT!

A medical test may determine tht your hormones are within a 'normal' range but the ranges are often quite wide and a high normal for one person is elevated to another. People are individuals and cannot be placed within a 'range'.

 

[bubka]

so you just stopped going balled without doing your diet, which you claim will prevent hairloss?

people shed hair without going bald.

ITS NOT MY DIET. ITS THE DIET OF THE NATIVE AMERICANS AND ESKIMOS AND IS CLOSE TO THE JAPANESE PRE-WAR DIET.

IT KEEPS HORMONES IN BALANCE!! INCLUDING DHT!

A medical test may determine tht your hormones are within a 'normal' range but the ranges are often quite wide and a high normal for one person is elevated to another.

and where is your evidence that these people were not balled? you just pull sh*t out of your *** and make it up

still waiting on those "scientific studies" by the way

what you posted is just a journal article at best, not even pier reviewed, in another words, its pathetic

even at that, you cannot even find the word hair, or hair loss, bald, or anything that support your claim, you are trying to draw some type of opinion theory from this

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

These are just some of the studies the article was based on:

Anderson KE. Rosner W. Khan MS. New MI. Pang SY. Wissel PS. Kappas A. Diet-hormone interactions: protein/carbohydrate ratio alters reciprocally the plasma levels of testosterone and cortisol and their respective binding globulins in man. Life Sciences. 40(1:1761-8, 1987 May 4.

Kappas A. Anderson KE. Conney AH. Pantuck EJ. Fishman J. Bradlow hair loss. Nutrition-endocrine interactions: induction of reciprocal changes in the delta 4-5 alpha-reduction of testosterone and the cytochrome P-450-dependent oxidation of estradiol by dietary macronutrients in man. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 80(24):7646-9, 1983 Dec.

Belanger A, A Locong, C Noel, et al. Influence of diet on plasma steroid and sex plasma binding globulin levels in adult men. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry. 32(6): 829-833, 1989.

Bishop DT, AW Meikle, ML Slattery, et al. The Effect of Nutritional Factors on Sex Hormone Levels in Male Twins. Genetic Epidemiology. 5:43-49, 1988.

Deslypere JP & A Vermeulen. Leydig cell function in normal men: effect of age, lifestyle, residence, and activity. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 59(5):955-962, 1984.

Dorgan JF, JT Judd, C Longcope, et al. Effects of dietary fat and fiber on plasma and urine androgens and estrogens in men: a controlled feeding study. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 64(6): 850-5, 1996 Dec.

Field AE, GA Colditz, WC Wilett, et al. The relation of smoking, age, relative weight, and dietary intakes to serum adrenal steroids, sex hormones, and sex hormone binding globulin in middle-aged men. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism. 79(5):1310-1316, 1994.

Hamalainen E, H Adlercreutz, P Puska, et al. Diet and serum sex hormones in healthy men. Journal of Steroid Biochemistry. 20(1): 459-464, 1984 Jan.

Hill PB & EL Wynder. Effect of a vegetable diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone, and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women. Cancer Letters, 7:273-282, 1979.

Hill PB, EL Wynder, L Garbaczewski, et al. Diet and urinary steroids in black and white North American and black South African men. Cancer Research. 39:5101-5105, 1979.

Hill PB, EL Wynder, L Garbaczewski, et al. Plasma hormones and lipids in men at different risk for coronary heart disease. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 33: 1010-1018, 1980 May.

Howie BJ & TD Shultz. Dietary and hormonal vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and nonvegetarian men. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 42: 127-134, 1985 July.

Key TJA, L Roe, M Thorogood, et al. British Journal of Nutrition. 64:111-119, 1990.

Meikle AW, JD Stringham, MG Woodward, et al. Effects of a fat-containing meal on sex hormones in men. Metabolism: Clinical & Experimental. 39(9): 943-946, 1990 Sep.

Raben A, B Kiens, EA Richter, et al. Serum sex hormones and endurance performance after a lacto-ovo vegetarian and a mixed diet. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 24(11): 1290-1297, 1992 Nov.

Reed MJ, RW Cheng, M Simmonds, et al. Dietary lipids: an additional regulator of plasma levels of sex hormone binding globulin. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. 64(5): 1083-5, 1987 May.

Rosenthal MB, RJ Barnard, DP Rose, et al. Effects of a high complex carbohydrate, low-fat, low-cholesterol diet on levels of serum lipids and estradiol. American Journal of Medicine. 78(1): 23-27, 1985 Jan.

Tsai L, J Karpakka, C Aginger, et al. Basal concentrations of anabolic and catabolic hormones in relation to endurance exercise after short-term changes in diet. European Journal of Applied Physiology & Occupational Physiology. 66(4): 304-308, 1993.

Volek JS, WJ Kraemer, JA Bush, et al. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology. 82(1): 49-54, 1997 Jan.

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

and where is your evidence that these people were not balled? you just pull $#iT out of your *** and make it up

There is OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE. I can provide some of it if you wish.

still waiting on those "scientific studies" by the way

Provided

what you posted is just a journal article at best, not even pier reviewed, in another words, its pathetic

'pier' reviewed? surely its peer. Its based on science. YOu're so quick to deny, argue, berate, insult and twist but so slow to read.

even at that, you cannot even find the word hair, or hair loss, bald, or anything that support your claim, you are trying to draw some type of opinion theory from this

The word 'hair' is not necessary where elevated DHT is written as this is the key component in baldness.

Look man, if this is personal, you'd be better just to drop it cos thats pretty sad. YOu haven't and probably never will read the articles and will continue to nitpick to deny because you don't believe in the idea that diet affects hairloss from the outset.

 

[bubka]

lol, you don't even know what a peer reviewed article is, this is not a scientific study, it's somebodies report on how diet can effect T and DHT, which you then magically link to reverse or prevention of hair loss without any direct evidence linking the three.

seriosly, how much more can you go on before you even admit that this says nothing about hair loss, you do the linking, there is nothing there but your hopes and dreams, you pulled it right out of your ***

where are the "statistics" on how Eskimos and native Americans, and Japaneses are not bald too? out of your *** too?

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

lol, you don't even know what a peer reviewed article is, this is not a scientific study, it's somebodies report on how diet can effect T and DHT, which you then magically link to reverse or prevention of hair loss without any direct evidence linking the three.

Yes, its a report based ON SCIENTIFIC STUDIES of how DIET AFFECTS DHT & TESTOSTERONE

Now THINK, if you are eating the same diet which pushes DHT up over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME, this means you're DHT levels have been elevated and you are more likely to go bald.

DHT is directly linked to baldness, wtf more link do you want?

seriosly, how much more can you go on before you even admit that this says nothing about hair loss, you do the linking, there is nothing there but your hopes and dreams, you pulled it right out of your ***

hopes and dreams? it really doesn't matter to me that much, silly bubka.

No, it says nothing about hair loss, BUT IT DOES SAY HOW DIET CAN RAISE DHT WHICH IS DIRECTLY LINKED TO HAIR LOSS>

how much more clear can I be?

where are the "statistics" on how Eskimos and native Americans, and Japaneses are not bald too? out of your *** too?

There have been multitudinous observational studies on the Eskimos and native americans throughout the past 100 years documented.

The japanese thing is said to be common knowledge that 2nd gen jaops are suffering baldness in america.

you have an obsession with my ***.

 

[bubka]

here is why your theory is bad:

you eluted to the fact of human evolution, and how our diet had changed, thus causing male pattern baldness

well buddy, i have bad news, many species of apes, of which we have a common ancestry, have GOSH.... male pattern baldness

all without the modern American diet, all without not cooking fats, living with Eskimos or Native Americans :wink: :roll:

 

[DammitLetMeIn]

here is why your theory is bad:

you eluted to the fact of human evolution, and how our diet had changed, thus causing male pattern baldness

well buddy, i have bad news, many species of apes, of which we have a common ancestry, have GOSH.... male pattern baldness

all without the modern American diet, all without not cooking fats, living with Eskimos or Native Americans :wink: :roll:

I don't know about you but I ain't no Ape

Apes are not humans.