LawOfThelema
Experienced Member
- Reaction score
- 18
That's a really amazing result.
TheLastHairbender's story
- Thread starter TheLastHairbender
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 86
****, I rarely post here anymore, but damn, your hair gets better and better with every update. So happy for you, pal.
- Reaction score
- 86
TheLastHairbender
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 5
1 year + 2 month Update
Date: 08/10/2012
Topics: Lessons from Minoxidil Discontinuation, Update on Scalp Flaking, Update on Spironolactone, Upcoming Vertex Trials, AHK-Cu Trial, Haircut Pictures, Updated Regimen
Hi guys, I’m back. Thanks for all the positive feedback and comments – Captain & RW & yassin I really appreciate your continuing to follow my progress, and IrishFella it’s good to see you back around here. More good news to report this month; progress continues and I have a few new things to say.
Lessons from Minoxidil Discontinuation
All-in-all, I couldn’t be happier with the way things are going. It looks like I’m back to full strength after the minoxidil slip-up this spring, from which I learned that for me personally I can expect to lose the minoxidil hair about 2 months after discontinuing use, and that, after resuming, early results appear after about a month-and-a-half with full results coming after about three months, consistent with my initial round of treatment one year ago. It also underscores the importance of discipline in executing your regimen to generate and sustain positive results.
Update on Scalp Flaking
More good news is that the scalp flaking has finally stopped. I still don’t know exactly what was causing it, but I’m no longer shedding hair, no longer itching, and no longer have those flaky bits cropping off of my scalp. I guess at this point I’ll just sum it up to some transient dryness and sensitivity and be happy that it resolved.
Update on Spironolactone
So it seems I’ve stabilized once again with regular use of finasteride (1.25mg/day), minoxidil (5% 2mL 2x/day), and ketoconazole (2% shampoo 2-3x/week), while supplementing with omega-3s (1.5g/day), biotin (10mg/day), and MSM (3g/day). It is worth mentioning that I never really resumed regular use of spironolactone. I had last used spironolactone daily during April, stopped for May due to excessive flaking (not necessarily related to spironolactone use), then proposed to resume in my June post but have never really gotten the hang of it again…I threw it on a couple times during June and July just to finish the tub I had already opened, but having maintained and improved my results despite not regularly using spironolactone over the past three months casts doubt over the necessity of that treatment, especially given that it is the most expensive part of my regimen.
My conclusion thus far is that the big 3 works for me, and including those few nutritional supplements is a simple and inexpensive contribution which may benefit general health as well. I would have no problem additionally continuing spironolactone use, and for those with no budgetary limitations I would not hesitate to recommend including it in your regimen in addition to the big 3 (unless a more potent topical anti-androgen like RU or CB/17ap is being used). But for me right now I’m going to put the spironolactone on hold to make room to test alternative secondary topicals, which I’ll discuss in the next section.
Upcoming Vertex Trials
As I mentioned, the main reason I’m discontinuing the spironolactone use is so that I can incorporate another topical into the regimen (going for 3 separate topicals at once would be a little tricky). So far I’ve had really good regrowth all over, especially at the hairline – it’s as low and dense as it’s ever been in my life – but less so at the vertex. Don’t get me wrong, I’m completely happy with the results so far and if I didn’t grow another new hair I’d be totally satisfied just having gone back to a normal balding pattern. At 27 years old now, the appearance of a thinning vertex is not as unusual as NW6 was at 24 years old.
But given that I’ve responded well to everything so far and have begun to appreciate the experimentation and knowledge-generation aspects of treatment (and also that I have 8 grams of pure AHK-Cu sitting in my fridge) I wanted to continue trying a few alternative treatments to both gauge their effectiveness and attempt to generate some new growth on the vertex. I don’t know that more growth at the temples is even possible, so for evaluating additional treatment options I think the vertex is an ideal proving ground. My former strategy was to get on the big 3 then incrementally add in additional products based on their ease of availability and reported effectiveness, but that process becomes costly and prohibits the simultaneous use of multiple topicals. Therefore I’m going to continue holding off on the formerly used Retin-A and Spironolactone while testing out some additional treatments one-by-one. I know that I tolerate those two things well but they don’t seem to have added much beyond the big 3 for me at this point; so rather than continue piling things on I’m going to keep them in the arsenal for inclusion in case my results from the big 3 begin to falter in the future.
At this point, I plan to use the 8 grams of AHK-Cu on hand for a five-month trial run, from August through mid-January, to be discussed in the next section. Hopefully any results will begin to show during that period if there are any to be had from this treatment. I then plan to undertake anti-fibrotic Aminexil treatment for the necessary six weeks from next February through mid-March, then kick up the minoxidil to 15% for a month during next April. After that we’ll see – most likely a course of miconazole nitrate, about which I’m most excited, but it all depends if any of the new stuff (bimatoprost, RU, CB, ASC, OC) is commercially available at that point (probably not).
AHK-Cu Trial
So since I’m back to full strength and have stabilized on just the big 3 over the past few months with still room to improve on the vertex, and I have some AHK-Cu and a bottle of Tricomin on hand, I’ve begun the process of testing out the effectiveness of these treatments as supplements to the big 3 to either generate new growth or thicken the sparse existing growth on the crown. In this way I’ll also require only half the amount relative to all-over application, allowing me to extend the duration of the study to be twice as long.
I propose to do the following:
Month 1 – August – Add 1.3g to 60mL Tricomin (2.5%), use 1mL twice per day
Month 2 – September – Add 1.3g to 60mL Tricomin (2.5%), use 1mL twice per day
Month 3 – October – Add 2.6g to 60mL Tricomin (5%), use 1mL once per day
Month 4 – November – Continue using previous month’s 5% preparation
Month 5 – December – Add 1.3g to 30mL alternative vehicle (5%), use 1mL once per day
As always, not perfectly scientific, but if any part of these combinations shows promise it would provide justification for continued exploration and refinement to pin down the optimal method of application. It is also worth mentioning that the percentage concentrations are going to be approximate for the first four months because the pre-existing concentration of AHK-Cu in Tricomin is not known with certainty but rumored to be between .1% and 1%, and please don’t start that argument here. For reference, here is the thread on AHK/vehicle proportioning I started back in April: http://tiny.cc/qsrviw.
I’ll be keeping track with regular pictures at the first of each month with particular focus on macro-mode documentation of the vertex. I’m also taking a 50mg zinc picolinate supplement every morning in an effort to maintain a consistent zinc:copper ratio, as this ratio has been found to be important for a variety of functions and is perhaps more relevant biologically than the total amount of either substance alone.
I am a bit concerned, though, about the Tricomin interfering with the minoxidil, in particular Tricomin’s amodimethicone ingredient, which is a silicone that can build up on the scalp and impair permeability for other topicals. It is apparently stripped away by certain surfactants, namely cocomidopropyl betaine…the Aveda Pure Abundance shampoo I use contains a similar surfactant (babassuamidopropyl betaine) so hopefully that is enough to prevent interference. An alternative vehicle of water, ethanol, and PG could also be used to deliver the AHK, but for now I’m going to assume the Procyte/PhotoMedex people are accurate when they say that Tricomin can safely be used with minoxidil. If I get the telltale shed from the vertex after two months I’ll certainly reconsider and switch to an alternative vehicle.
When the bulk AHK was first going around I know some people dumped it straight into their minoxidil formulae and still reported some potential interference, so with all these concerns in mind I’m going to space the AHK applications far away from applications of minoxidil (which reportedly reaches full absorption after four hours). I’ll apply minoxidil first thing in the morning (7 AM), the AHK about five hours thereafter (12 noon), shower after an evening workout to remove the AHK and immediately apply minoxidil again to a fresh scalp (7 PM), then make the last application of AHK five hours later (12 AM) before I go to bed around 1 or 2 AM. In this way I hope to minimize the risk of AHK/Tricomin – minoxidil interference; the only overlap being the morning application of minoxidil over top of the previous night’s application of AHK. Remember that I’ll be applying minoxidil all over but AHK only to the vertex. Fortunately the Tricomin/AHK 2.5% mixture I’m currently using, although dark blue, doesn’t seem to discolor the scalp at all in the way that Folligen did, therefore the mid-day application shouldn’t pose any practical problems for me.
Let me know what you think about this proposal if you have any feedback. I just initiated day 1 of 2x/day 2.5% AHK yesterday, August 10. Looking forward to keeping you updated and adding to the sparse anecdotal evidence on how Tricomin and supplemental AHK-Cu fits into a keto/finasteride/minoxidil regimen.
The last thing to note is that since I have one 180mL bottle of Tricomin while my trial calls for 210mL of vehicle, I’m actually in need of an additional 30mL. I’d rather try something else besides the Tricomin, probably a simple water/ethanol/propylene glycol solution, since this is what many people were using for their AHK last year. Does anyone have recommendations for a particular ratio? To promote maximal absorption I want to increase the non-volatile component (PG) as much as possible while maintaining solubility…I’m thinking 20:40:40 water:everclear
G. The risk is that the AHK won’t fully dissolve, in which case I can add water and ethanol in fixed proportions and increase the volume I apply each time correspondingly to maintain the same quantity of active ingredient. Anyone with experience please chime in. Thanks!
Haircut Pictures
I was fortunate enough this month to snap pictures immediately prior to and immediately following my monthly haircut, since I always seem to grab pics under one condition or the other. Hopefully this will give a more comprehensive picture of my progress. The pictures are from one week ago today, August 4, 2012.
Before haircut - 3 with flash off:
Before haircut - 5 with flash on:
After haircut - 5 with flash off:
After haircut - 5 with flash on:
Closeup of Crown - flash off / flash on:
Updated Regimen
Inflammation
Keto 2% Shampoo, 2-3x/week
*TRIAL: Tricomin+AHK-Cu, 2.5% 1mL 2x/day
DHT
Finasteride 1.25mg/day
*ON HOLD: Spironolactone 5% 1mL 2x/day
Growth
Minoxidil 5% 2mL 2x/day
*ON HOLD: Retin-A .05% ~250mg 1x/day
Supplements
Multi 1x/day
Omega-3s 1.5g/day 2:1 EPA-DHA
Biotin 10mg/day
MSM 3g/day
Zinc Picolinate 50mg/day (for AHK-Cu Trial)
Thanks for reading this incredibly long post! Leave a message and check back the first week of September to see how things are progressing with the AHK trials.
Date: 08/10/2012
Topics: Lessons from Minoxidil Discontinuation, Update on Scalp Flaking, Update on Spironolactone, Upcoming Vertex Trials, AHK-Cu Trial, Haircut Pictures, Updated Regimen
Hi guys, I’m back. Thanks for all the positive feedback and comments – Captain & RW & yassin I really appreciate your continuing to follow my progress, and IrishFella it’s good to see you back around here. More good news to report this month; progress continues and I have a few new things to say.
Lessons from Minoxidil Discontinuation
All-in-all, I couldn’t be happier with the way things are going. It looks like I’m back to full strength after the minoxidil slip-up this spring, from which I learned that for me personally I can expect to lose the minoxidil hair about 2 months after discontinuing use, and that, after resuming, early results appear after about a month-and-a-half with full results coming after about three months, consistent with my initial round of treatment one year ago. It also underscores the importance of discipline in executing your regimen to generate and sustain positive results.
Update on Scalp Flaking
More good news is that the scalp flaking has finally stopped. I still don’t know exactly what was causing it, but I’m no longer shedding hair, no longer itching, and no longer have those flaky bits cropping off of my scalp. I guess at this point I’ll just sum it up to some transient dryness and sensitivity and be happy that it resolved.
Update on Spironolactone
So it seems I’ve stabilized once again with regular use of finasteride (1.25mg/day), minoxidil (5% 2mL 2x/day), and ketoconazole (2% shampoo 2-3x/week), while supplementing with omega-3s (1.5g/day), biotin (10mg/day), and MSM (3g/day). It is worth mentioning that I never really resumed regular use of spironolactone. I had last used spironolactone daily during April, stopped for May due to excessive flaking (not necessarily related to spironolactone use), then proposed to resume in my June post but have never really gotten the hang of it again…I threw it on a couple times during June and July just to finish the tub I had already opened, but having maintained and improved my results despite not regularly using spironolactone over the past three months casts doubt over the necessity of that treatment, especially given that it is the most expensive part of my regimen.
My conclusion thus far is that the big 3 works for me, and including those few nutritional supplements is a simple and inexpensive contribution which may benefit general health as well. I would have no problem additionally continuing spironolactone use, and for those with no budgetary limitations I would not hesitate to recommend including it in your regimen in addition to the big 3 (unless a more potent topical anti-androgen like RU or CB/17ap is being used). But for me right now I’m going to put the spironolactone on hold to make room to test alternative secondary topicals, which I’ll discuss in the next section.
Upcoming Vertex Trials
As I mentioned, the main reason I’m discontinuing the spironolactone use is so that I can incorporate another topical into the regimen (going for 3 separate topicals at once would be a little tricky). So far I’ve had really good regrowth all over, especially at the hairline – it’s as low and dense as it’s ever been in my life – but less so at the vertex. Don’t get me wrong, I’m completely happy with the results so far and if I didn’t grow another new hair I’d be totally satisfied just having gone back to a normal balding pattern. At 27 years old now, the appearance of a thinning vertex is not as unusual as NW6 was at 24 years old.
But given that I’ve responded well to everything so far and have begun to appreciate the experimentation and knowledge-generation aspects of treatment (and also that I have 8 grams of pure AHK-Cu sitting in my fridge) I wanted to continue trying a few alternative treatments to both gauge their effectiveness and attempt to generate some new growth on the vertex. I don’t know that more growth at the temples is even possible, so for evaluating additional treatment options I think the vertex is an ideal proving ground. My former strategy was to get on the big 3 then incrementally add in additional products based on their ease of availability and reported effectiveness, but that process becomes costly and prohibits the simultaneous use of multiple topicals. Therefore I’m going to continue holding off on the formerly used Retin-A and Spironolactone while testing out some additional treatments one-by-one. I know that I tolerate those two things well but they don’t seem to have added much beyond the big 3 for me at this point; so rather than continue piling things on I’m going to keep them in the arsenal for inclusion in case my results from the big 3 begin to falter in the future.
At this point, I plan to use the 8 grams of AHK-Cu on hand for a five-month trial run, from August through mid-January, to be discussed in the next section. Hopefully any results will begin to show during that period if there are any to be had from this treatment. I then plan to undertake anti-fibrotic Aminexil treatment for the necessary six weeks from next February through mid-March, then kick up the minoxidil to 15% for a month during next April. After that we’ll see – most likely a course of miconazole nitrate, about which I’m most excited, but it all depends if any of the new stuff (bimatoprost, RU, CB, ASC, OC) is commercially available at that point (probably not).
AHK-Cu Trial
So since I’m back to full strength and have stabilized on just the big 3 over the past few months with still room to improve on the vertex, and I have some AHK-Cu and a bottle of Tricomin on hand, I’ve begun the process of testing out the effectiveness of these treatments as supplements to the big 3 to either generate new growth or thicken the sparse existing growth on the crown. In this way I’ll also require only half the amount relative to all-over application, allowing me to extend the duration of the study to be twice as long.
I propose to do the following:
Month 1 – August – Add 1.3g to 60mL Tricomin (2.5%), use 1mL twice per day
Month 2 – September – Add 1.3g to 60mL Tricomin (2.5%), use 1mL twice per day
Month 3 – October – Add 2.6g to 60mL Tricomin (5%), use 1mL once per day
Month 4 – November – Continue using previous month’s 5% preparation
Month 5 – December – Add 1.3g to 30mL alternative vehicle (5%), use 1mL once per day
As always, not perfectly scientific, but if any part of these combinations shows promise it would provide justification for continued exploration and refinement to pin down the optimal method of application. It is also worth mentioning that the percentage concentrations are going to be approximate for the first four months because the pre-existing concentration of AHK-Cu in Tricomin is not known with certainty but rumored to be between .1% and 1%, and please don’t start that argument here. For reference, here is the thread on AHK/vehicle proportioning I started back in April: http://tiny.cc/qsrviw.
I’ll be keeping track with regular pictures at the first of each month with particular focus on macro-mode documentation of the vertex. I’m also taking a 50mg zinc picolinate supplement every morning in an effort to maintain a consistent zinc:copper ratio, as this ratio has been found to be important for a variety of functions and is perhaps more relevant biologically than the total amount of either substance alone.
I am a bit concerned, though, about the Tricomin interfering with the minoxidil, in particular Tricomin’s amodimethicone ingredient, which is a silicone that can build up on the scalp and impair permeability for other topicals. It is apparently stripped away by certain surfactants, namely cocomidopropyl betaine…the Aveda Pure Abundance shampoo I use contains a similar surfactant (babassuamidopropyl betaine) so hopefully that is enough to prevent interference. An alternative vehicle of water, ethanol, and PG could also be used to deliver the AHK, but for now I’m going to assume the Procyte/PhotoMedex people are accurate when they say that Tricomin can safely be used with minoxidil. If I get the telltale shed from the vertex after two months I’ll certainly reconsider and switch to an alternative vehicle.
When the bulk AHK was first going around I know some people dumped it straight into their minoxidil formulae and still reported some potential interference, so with all these concerns in mind I’m going to space the AHK applications far away from applications of minoxidil (which reportedly reaches full absorption after four hours). I’ll apply minoxidil first thing in the morning (7 AM), the AHK about five hours thereafter (12 noon), shower after an evening workout to remove the AHK and immediately apply minoxidil again to a fresh scalp (7 PM), then make the last application of AHK five hours later (12 AM) before I go to bed around 1 or 2 AM. In this way I hope to minimize the risk of AHK/Tricomin – minoxidil interference; the only overlap being the morning application of minoxidil over top of the previous night’s application of AHK. Remember that I’ll be applying minoxidil all over but AHK only to the vertex. Fortunately the Tricomin/AHK 2.5% mixture I’m currently using, although dark blue, doesn’t seem to discolor the scalp at all in the way that Folligen did, therefore the mid-day application shouldn’t pose any practical problems for me.
Let me know what you think about this proposal if you have any feedback. I just initiated day 1 of 2x/day 2.5% AHK yesterday, August 10. Looking forward to keeping you updated and adding to the sparse anecdotal evidence on how Tricomin and supplemental AHK-Cu fits into a keto/finasteride/minoxidil regimen.
The last thing to note is that since I have one 180mL bottle of Tricomin while my trial calls for 210mL of vehicle, I’m actually in need of an additional 30mL. I’d rather try something else besides the Tricomin, probably a simple water/ethanol/propylene glycol solution, since this is what many people were using for their AHK last year. Does anyone have recommendations for a particular ratio? To promote maximal absorption I want to increase the non-volatile component (PG) as much as possible while maintaining solubility…I’m thinking 20:40:40 water:everclear
G. The risk is that the AHK won’t fully dissolve, in which case I can add water and ethanol in fixed proportions and increase the volume I apply each time correspondingly to maintain the same quantity of active ingredient. Anyone with experience please chime in. Thanks!Haircut Pictures
I was fortunate enough this month to snap pictures immediately prior to and immediately following my monthly haircut, since I always seem to grab pics under one condition or the other. Hopefully this will give a more comprehensive picture of my progress. The pictures are from one week ago today, August 4, 2012.
Before haircut - 3 with flash off:
Before haircut - 5 with flash on:
After haircut - 5 with flash off:
After haircut - 5 with flash on:
Closeup of Crown - flash off / flash on:
Updated Regimen
Inflammation
Keto 2% Shampoo, 2-3x/week
*TRIAL: Tricomin+AHK-Cu, 2.5% 1mL 2x/day
DHT
Finasteride 1.25mg/day
*ON HOLD: Spironolactone 5% 1mL 2x/day
Growth
Minoxidil 5% 2mL 2x/day
*ON HOLD: Retin-A .05% ~250mg 1x/day
Supplements
Multi 1x/day
Omega-3s 1.5g/day 2:1 EPA-DHA
Biotin 10mg/day
MSM 3g/day
Zinc Picolinate 50mg/day (for AHK-Cu Trial)
Thanks for reading this incredibly long post! Leave a message and check back the first week of September to see how things are progressing with the AHK trials.
TheLastHairbender
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 5
No, I use prescription 2% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times a week and use Aveda Pure Abundance volumizing shampoo and clay conditioner on the other days. I've heard more good things about regenepure than most other shampoos, but the 2% keto works well for me and finasteride and minoxidil do the bulk of the heavy lifting...I don't put much stock in shampoos' ability to regrow hair.
Thanks Kadir for your support, I will definitely keep it going, good luck in your own regimen as well!
TheLastHairbender
Established Member
- Reaction score
- 5
Sure thing Kadir.
I take 1.25mg generic finasteride every morning. I have a prescription for 5mg proscar, I get the generic for $30-$35 for a 6 month supply (40 tablets) and cut each one into 1/4s, as the prescription calls for me to take 1.25mg per day for 4 days and skip the 5th day (equating to 1mg/day but structured this way because it's so difficult to cut a round pill into 1/5). I aim to take one every day but forget about every 4-5 days so it works out in the end.
Along with that each morning I take 1.5g MSM (NOW Foods brand), 750mg Omega-3s (NOW Foods Ultra Omega-3s), 5mg biotin (1/2 of a Natrol brand 10,000mcg pill), and half of a multivitamin (generic brand right now but I'm switching to Centrum). I also apply 2mL of 5% generic (Kirkland brand) liquid minoxidil, 1mL to the crown and 1mL to the hairline, and rub it around for 10-15 seconds to spread it around the scalp a bit. (I used to also apply 1mL S5 spironolactone cream for about a year up until a few months ago. I started using spironolactone only at night for the first few months then started using it both morning at night, which increased the costs substantially).
Then at night I take another 1.5g MSM, 750mg Omega-3s, the other 5mg biotin, and the other half of the multivitamin, and apply another 2mL of 5% liquid minoxidil in the same way as the morning. (Using 2mL/application = 4mL/day means you'll go through minoxidil at twice the rate as the instructions indicate. Therefore I buy a 12-month supply of Kirkland 5% on Amazon for $50-$60 which lasts me 6 months).
I also shampoo with prescription 2% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times a week, and Aveda Pure Abundance volumizing shampoo and clay conditioner in between. I've found this to be the best shampoo for adding aesthetic volume to your hair, especially the conditioner, which is as much as I'd expect any shampoo to do.
As noted in my post from earlier today I just started applying 1mL of 2.5% AHK-Cu dissolved in Tricomin mid-day and immediately before bed, but as I just started this yesterday it's not responsible for my awesome results so far. That can be attributed strictly to the:
- 1.25mg finasteride each morning (~$5/month)
- 2mL of 5% liquid minoxidil each morning and night (~$10/month)
- 2% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times/week ($20 for 5oz which lasts 6 months, so ~$3/month). Total costs so far is under $20/month. By comparison twice daily spironolactone cost me $32/month.
and to a lesser degree:
- Daily: multivitamin ($20/yr = $2/month), 3g MSM ($42/yr = $3/month), 1.5g Omega-3s ($23/3mo = $7/month), 10mg biotin ($7/3mo = $2/month)
So the complete regimen costs me $32/month, and I'd probably be taking a multivitamin and omega-3s anyway. FYI I get my finasteride and ketoconazole prescriptions filled at my university pharmacy (Arizona State).
If you end up reading through my entire story you'll see that I started smaller on the minoxidil (1mL/application for the first few months), Nizoral 1% shampoo OTC for a few months before I got prescription 2% strength keto, lower doses of Omega-3s (600-900mg/day), biotin (5mg/day), and spironolactone (1mL 1x/day then up to 2x/day), so you may also want to start small and increase gradually on some of these things. It gives you a chance to see how you respond, and gives you some room to grow into your regimen. I also had a little run of .05% Retin-A cream in there for two months last fall (months 4-5ish) with no directly discernible effects; because results with retin-a vary from hair loss to improved growth, and since the optimal treatment quantity is unknown I felt better leaving this additional topical off for now, although I'll give it a more scientific trial in the future. I also gave Folligen therapy spray a try for a week or two but the application was too messy and stinky to be practical even if there were positive results to be had. In general, I've had great results with keto, finasteride, and minoxidil and those few dietary supplements. Everything beyond that is still rather speculative in my mind. I'm confident that good responders will do well on this simple and inexpensive regimen. Once you've begun to fulfill your growth potential on these things and have stabilized and leveled off in growth, as I believe I have now after 14 months, then it may be appropriate to attempt rotating in an additional treatment and carefully evaluate its incremental effects, which is precisely what I'm doing now with the AHK on my still-lagging vertex.
Feel free to ask any additional specific questions. My general advice would be to:
1) be disciplined - commit to executing your regimen every morning and night.
2) schedule a day each month or twice each month to take a series of pictures which will help provide you context for your progress.
3) start a thread in the Tell Your Story forum to post your progress (and pics if you'd like) which helps affirms your commitment, tracks your regimen over time, and provides information for your future brothers in hair loss.
4) see your general practitioner physician in order to A) confirm a diagnosis of androgenetic alopecia, B) obtain prescriptions for finasteride and ketoconazole (if necessary in your country), C) request baseline blood test results which should include a Complete Blood Cell count, Rapid Plasma Reagin (RPR test for Syphilis, sorry bro you gotta rule it out), and hormone tests for Testosterone (total and free), Leutinizing Hormone, and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (T, LH, FSH) if possible. You may attempt to get a complete hormone assessment but they can be costly and most doctors will try to talk you out of the necessity of it.
5) set up a purchase schedule to buy the treatments you need on regular intervals. You'll need to fill your finasteride and keto prescriptions every 3 or 6 months and purchase the 12-month supply of minoxidil every 6 months. I take care of all this on Sept. 1 and March 1. The worst thing that can happen is you're stuck without minoxidil for anything more than a day or two. Slip up for longer than that and you can expect your hair to start shedding within weeks. It has taken me 3 months to get back to full strength again after slipping up on minoxidil. Set up a system to ensure you're never without treatments.
6) begin execution of the regimen, monitor yourself for side effects for the first few months, then start monitoring for progress after month 2-3.
7) stay away from propeciahelp.com. (Not that the stuff there is without merit, but reading the stories there won't do anything for you if you're already monitoring for sides as in step 6).
Good luck Kadir!
I take 1.25mg generic finasteride every morning. I have a prescription for 5mg proscar, I get the generic for $30-$35 for a 6 month supply (40 tablets) and cut each one into 1/4s, as the prescription calls for me to take 1.25mg per day for 4 days and skip the 5th day (equating to 1mg/day but structured this way because it's so difficult to cut a round pill into 1/5). I aim to take one every day but forget about every 4-5 days so it works out in the end.
Along with that each morning I take 1.5g MSM (NOW Foods brand), 750mg Omega-3s (NOW Foods Ultra Omega-3s), 5mg biotin (1/2 of a Natrol brand 10,000mcg pill), and half of a multivitamin (generic brand right now but I'm switching to Centrum). I also apply 2mL of 5% generic (Kirkland brand) liquid minoxidil, 1mL to the crown and 1mL to the hairline, and rub it around for 10-15 seconds to spread it around the scalp a bit. (I used to also apply 1mL S5 spironolactone cream for about a year up until a few months ago. I started using spironolactone only at night for the first few months then started using it both morning at night, which increased the costs substantially).
Then at night I take another 1.5g MSM, 750mg Omega-3s, the other 5mg biotin, and the other half of the multivitamin, and apply another 2mL of 5% liquid minoxidil in the same way as the morning. (Using 2mL/application = 4mL/day means you'll go through minoxidil at twice the rate as the instructions indicate. Therefore I buy a 12-month supply of Kirkland 5% on Amazon for $50-$60 which lasts me 6 months).
I also shampoo with prescription 2% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times a week, and Aveda Pure Abundance volumizing shampoo and clay conditioner in between. I've found this to be the best shampoo for adding aesthetic volume to your hair, especially the conditioner, which is as much as I'd expect any shampoo to do.
As noted in my post from earlier today I just started applying 1mL of 2.5% AHK-Cu dissolved in Tricomin mid-day and immediately before bed, but as I just started this yesterday it's not responsible for my awesome results so far. That can be attributed strictly to the:
- 1.25mg finasteride each morning (~$5/month)
- 2mL of 5% liquid minoxidil each morning and night (~$10/month)
- 2% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times/week ($20 for 5oz which lasts 6 months, so ~$3/month). Total costs so far is under $20/month. By comparison twice daily spironolactone cost me $32/month.
and to a lesser degree:
- Daily: multivitamin ($20/yr = $2/month), 3g MSM ($42/yr = $3/month), 1.5g Omega-3s ($23/3mo = $7/month), 10mg biotin ($7/3mo = $2/month)
So the complete regimen costs me $32/month, and I'd probably be taking a multivitamin and omega-3s anyway. FYI I get my finasteride and ketoconazole prescriptions filled at my university pharmacy (Arizona State).
If you end up reading through my entire story you'll see that I started smaller on the minoxidil (1mL/application for the first few months), Nizoral 1% shampoo OTC for a few months before I got prescription 2% strength keto, lower doses of Omega-3s (600-900mg/day), biotin (5mg/day), and spironolactone (1mL 1x/day then up to 2x/day), so you may also want to start small and increase gradually on some of these things. It gives you a chance to see how you respond, and gives you some room to grow into your regimen. I also had a little run of .05% Retin-A cream in there for two months last fall (months 4-5ish) with no directly discernible effects; because results with retin-a vary from hair loss to improved growth, and since the optimal treatment quantity is unknown I felt better leaving this additional topical off for now, although I'll give it a more scientific trial in the future. I also gave Folligen therapy spray a try for a week or two but the application was too messy and stinky to be practical even if there were positive results to be had. In general, I've had great results with keto, finasteride, and minoxidil and those few dietary supplements. Everything beyond that is still rather speculative in my mind. I'm confident that good responders will do well on this simple and inexpensive regimen. Once you've begun to fulfill your growth potential on these things and have stabilized and leveled off in growth, as I believe I have now after 14 months, then it may be appropriate to attempt rotating in an additional treatment and carefully evaluate its incremental effects, which is precisely what I'm doing now with the AHK on my still-lagging vertex.
Feel free to ask any additional specific questions. My general advice would be to:
1) be disciplined - commit to executing your regimen every morning and night.
2) schedule a day each month or twice each month to take a series of pictures which will help provide you context for your progress.
3) start a thread in the Tell Your Story forum to post your progress (and pics if you'd like) which helps affirms your commitment, tracks your regimen over time, and provides information for your future brothers in hair loss.
4) see your general practitioner physician in order to A) confirm a diagnosis of androgenetic alopecia, B) obtain prescriptions for finasteride and ketoconazole (if necessary in your country), C) request baseline blood test results which should include a Complete Blood Cell count, Rapid Plasma Reagin (RPR test for Syphilis, sorry bro you gotta rule it out), and hormone tests for Testosterone (total and free), Leutinizing Hormone, and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (T, LH, FSH) if possible. You may attempt to get a complete hormone assessment but they can be costly and most doctors will try to talk you out of the necessity of it.
5) set up a purchase schedule to buy the treatments you need on regular intervals. You'll need to fill your finasteride and keto prescriptions every 3 or 6 months and purchase the 12-month supply of minoxidil every 6 months. I take care of all this on Sept. 1 and March 1. The worst thing that can happen is you're stuck without minoxidil for anything more than a day or two. Slip up for longer than that and you can expect your hair to start shedding within weeks. It has taken me 3 months to get back to full strength again after slipping up on minoxidil. Set up a system to ensure you're never without treatments.
6) begin execution of the regimen, monitor yourself for side effects for the first few months, then start monitoring for progress after month 2-3.
7) stay away from propeciahelp.com. (Not that the stuff there is without merit, but reading the stories there won't do anything for you if you're already monitoring for sides as in step 6).
Good luck Kadir!
TheLastHairbender
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Hey dude great to hear from you. Yes, you mentioned that to me before but I never got around to doing so and it kinda slipped off the radar. I think I probably will do so eventually, but I'm having such a good go of it right now and am already so happy with my current state that I've become just as interested in seeing how far it will go as I have in making it look better. So I guess the only reason I don't go buy the dye and try it right this minute is to maintain consistency in tracking my progress. That sounds so silly I know; I would have slapped myself for saying that a year ago, but it's an idea I'll plan on executing a bit down the road once I'm completely into maintenance phase. I may be a bit leary about possible damage to the hair or follicles, but that's really not the overriding concern. Thanks again for that advice, it's something I'm definitely going to do in the not-so-distant future.
On that note, I still have to thank you again for your valuable advice early on to begin applying minoxidil all over. Were it not for your insight I may not have a hairline today. Thanks again for sticking with me Cap, you've been a great mentor throughout my treatment plan.
On that note, I still have to thank you again for your valuable advice early on to begin applying minoxidil all over. Were it not for your insight I may not have a hairline today. Thanks again for sticking with me Cap, you've been a great mentor throughout my treatment plan.
i am using revita shampoo twice kirkland minoxidil day/night each 1 ml, 1 mg generic finasteride, is this enough to see results.. i am using the finasteride 3 months now, the minoxidil and the shampoo 1 week. I guess i'll wait till 6 months and look till i see any results..
TheLastHairbender
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Thanks so much, I really appreciate hearing that - I sometimes put 6-8 hours into making a post so it's good to know it benefits someone!
kadir657 said:
That sounds reasonable kadir. Where are you looking for improvement? Just on the vertex/crown? Hairline? Are you a diffuse thinner? I ask because this will determine how much minoxidil you should be using per application. I started with 1mL per application, just on the vertex, until Captain Combover advised me to spread it on the hairline too, which required 2mL per application to get all-over coverage. Yes it doubles your cost for minoxidil, and the package says that it only works on the vertex, but I have had stronger results towards the front of my hair than I have in the back (this is probably because I've been bald on the crown for several years but only started losing up front during the year prior to treatment, but I still believe the minoxidil has been maximally effective up there, and Captain's experience has been similar). Kirkland minoxidil is pretty cheap, so the modest cost increase shouldn't deter you from growing a stronger head of hair all around.
Looking at Revita shampoo it seems like a reasonable product - claims to contain caffeine, copper peptides, SOD, ketoconazole, MSM, and biotin, among other things. A few thoughts: The idea of copper peptides and SOD is nice, but it's not clear what peptides are used; there are many available, AHK-Cu and, to a lesser extent, GHK-Cu, have the most clinical support, but are also the most expensive. It's more likely this product contains a random (and less expensive) mix of soy peptides, like Folligen does. They may still be a good thing, but I wouldn't select this shampoo strictly on that basis. Related, exogenous SOD may not be that helpful either, which is why copper peptides are more widely used to induce the production of endogenous SOD. This is currently a frontier of modern clinical research so none of us can say with certainty, but the suggestion has been that topical AHK-Cu in particular is the preferred method for harnessing the antioxidant effects of superoxide dismutase, which is what the 'copper peptide' and SOD ingredients aim to do. Also it's not clear that MSM and biotin are active topically, but it doesn't hurt. Most importantly, the shampoo claims to contain ketoconazole, which should definitely part of your regimen and is ideally delivered through shampoo. Most people use a dedicated ketoconazole shampoo like Nizoral, in 1% or 2% strength. I can't find the concentration in Revita, some claim 2% but I don't believe that's true because anything over 1% requires a prescription in the U.S. It's possible there is an insufficiently small quantity of ketoconazole included just for purposes of including it on the label. That said, it does seem to have generally positive reviews. Would I trade Nizoral 1% or my Rx 2% every few days for Revita? Probably not, plus for daily use I've found Aveda Pure Abundance to do the most for my hair cosmetically compared to the other brands I've used (Nioxin, Infusium volumizing, others I can't remember right now), but it's probably not of first-order importance in the presence of finasteride and minoxidil. In any case, you want to make sure the ketoconazole stays on your head for about 5 minutes, re-lathering a few times in the process, then rinse it out completely.
In general your regimen sounds great. It should be enough to see results depending on the degree of your response to those things. It's definitely the right way to start. Since you've only been using the minoxidil for a week I would definitely wait to see results. (I would also continue using the 1mL for the first month or two before increasing it to 2mL if you decide to do so). For what it's worth, using minoxidil alone for several months generated no real results for me. Using it with finasteride a few years later made new hair explode over the first 3-5 months. Then, stopping minoxidil for a few months but continuing on daily finasteride I still lost most of my gains, which then reappeared about 3 months after starting minoxidil again. So my experience has been that minoxidil without finasteride wasn't able to generate new growth, finasteride without minoxidil wasn't able to maintain the growth I had, but both used together regularly has allowed me to grow a ton of hair - like double or triple the hair volume on top - and keep it for as long as I've used both treatments religiously. Keep up the minoxidil without missing a beat, and think about including a dedicated 1% ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times a week in addition to or when you're done with that bottle of Revita.
yassin said:
Hey Yassin, thanks for keeping up with my story. I just saw your pictures and read about your progress on tedlin’s site, looking very good man, congrats!
I’m sorry if your question implies that you’re dealing with a shed. You know, this is one area I really don’t know a ton about yet from my own experience. I really never experienced any treatment-related shedding during my first 9 months or so. Before starting treatment I shed tons and tons of hair for like two years until I arrived at the pitiful state of my ‘before’ pictures. But that shedding had basically stopped several months before I got on the bandwagon. After beginning treatment I didn’t notice any significant shedding until I stopped using minoxidil for about six weeks. Then, two months after stopping (and two weeks after having restarted) everything went to hell, and fast. I shed at the volume I had been shedding years before and gave up at least half of the progress I had made so far. This shedding lasted 2-3 months, until I had been back on minoxidil for about 2 months, at which point everything grew right back in. It was amazingly deterministic, and the timeline was consistent with my initial round of treatment last summer.
Here’s the timeline (dates are approximate):
01/15/2012: Stopped daily minoxidil use
03/01/2012: Restarted daily minoxidil
03/15/2012: Started shedding majorly (two months after stopping)
04/20/2012: Shedding relented a bit, vellus hairs sprouting all over hairline
05/31/2012: Back to full strength, shedding almost completely stopped
The interesting thing is that after the first month or so of shedding I started shedding more than just hair – it was like these thin, flaky pieces of something. I’m still not sure if it was skin from my scalp or dried-up minoxidil or spironolactone. I’ve never had any dandruff at all so I’m not sure if that’s what it was, and I was continuing to use 2% ketoconazole (anti-dandruff) shampoo the whole time. I’m still really at a loss for what was going on there. One possibility is that it came during the dry and hot season here in Arizona – humidity is consistently below 20% and temperatures are 100*F (37*C) every day and up to 120*F (47*C) on hot days – so it could’ve been excessively dry skin, although this has never been the case during the past five years I’ve lived here, one of which I was also using minoxidil and spironolactone. I wrote a lot about the issue in my posts from the past few months. Scroll back and read my monthly updates from March through July, I describe the shedding in a section identified with a bold and underlined heading so it should be easy to find.
Basically though, I’m not the one with the most experience on that issue and still don’t fully understand my own experience with sheds. I kinda suspect the flaky component might have been related to the topical spironolactone – that stuff is kinda thick, my use of it was off-and-on, and I was already losing hairs at the time due to the minoxidil discontinuation so maybe they were pulling some dried spironolactone off along with them(?) Still, I had been using spironolactone daily for 9 months prior to that and never had that experience, and even after washing my hair and scalp really thoroughly with either keto or regular shampoo, I was shedding flakes again as soon as my hair dried and before applying any topicals to the scalp. Most of the time it was pretty itchy too, sometimes really, really itchy. At one point it itched so badly I just had to take a handful of body lotion and just smear it all over my scalp and hair, which felt great. Anyway, I haven’t come to any more definite a conclusion than the aforementioned rant. The only time though I’ve noticed any more than negligible shedding since starting treatment has been due to the temporary discontinuation of minoxidil use. It is worth mentioning that I took my 1.25mg daily finasteride during the entire ordeal, so that alone wasn’t enough to prevent minoxidil hair from jetting.
I hope that info can be of some help to you, let us know what you’re going through and anything else you find out from further research. Good luck yassin!
TheLastHairbender
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Sure kadir. In that case, since you're thinning over the whole NW5A / NW6 area, I would recommend ultimately using minoxidil in 2mL per application, spread over the entire area from the vertex forward and from the hairline back, so that the entire area is covered. It will probably take 2mL to cover this entire area, but the short buzz will help make sure most of it stays on the scalp instead of greasing up the hair. I wouldn't move up to that quantity immediately though. Keep using 1mL like you have been and try to cover as much scalp as possible with it. Minoxidil is systemically absorbed, so you want to condition the rest of your body, namely your cardiovascular system, to its effects gradually. Mild minoxidil overdoses are not uncommon, especially when people begin treatment. You'll know it from lightheadedness, dizziness, mild nausea, and a pounding heartbeat. If it happens just alert someone nearby, sit down, drink some water, try to relax and know that it almost always resolves itself within an hour or two. I had one pretty severe incident in which I felt these symptoms, dizziness bordering on vertigo, dimming of my peripheral vision, and a heartbeat I could feel in my throat. I let my girlfriend know and I laid down, immediately falling asleep. She kept an eye on me and my breathing and when I woke up a few hours later all was fine. For me, it was due to the fact that I was using Rogaine Foam at the time which I always found very imprecise to measure out (half a capful, really?) and the palm-full I applied that time might have ended up being closer to 5mL or more at a time when I was only used to using 1mL. Not to get you scared or anything - it's really just a transient drop in blood pressure that manifests in some uncomfortable perceptible effects - just want you to be able to stay calm if something similar ever happens to you. Probably 99% of cases or more just result in some temporary discomfort that quickly goes away, but there is a remote possibility of heart attack in an absolute worst case scenario, so best to try not to be by yourself if you feel those effects coming on following a minoxidil application (for me it was about 10 minutes after application if I recall correctly). Most people would probably say I'm overstating those risks and for safety's sake, I am. Just something to keep in mind when initially increasing your dosage of minoxidil. This is less of an issue with liquid minoxidil applied from a 1mL dropper, it would be hard to underestimate the amount being applied; the application of a glob of foam can be less precise (FYI, I find a generous middle-finger-length of foam to be about 2mL if you end up using that preparation).
So stick with 1mL minoxidil per application for the rest of your first month. Then try 1mL in the morning and 2mL at night, or vice versa, for the next month, then you can shoot for 2mL/application morning and night in the following month, pending your assessment of your adjustment to the increases. Most likely you won't notice anything different, especially increasing it step-wise in this method. I started at 1mL for the first three months and then increased to 2mL after the third month, not for any reason of safety, but because Captain Combover encouraged me to try minoxidil all over the scalp after I'd already been on it for 3 months and I found it took 2mL to cover all that real estate. Due to that breaking-in period though I never noticed any side effects from the increase, provided I actually applied the amount I intended to.
Other than that you should be all set. Keep taking your finasteride, and pick up a dedicated ketoconazole shampoo like Nizoral 1% to use 2-3 times a week in between Revita shampooings. Unless someone else chimes in that this could be overexposure to ketoconazole, which I've never really heard any complaints of, I think you're all set. To mimic my regimen more precisely you might think about adding some Omega-3 fish oils (thought to reduce inflammation throughout the body) of 900mg up to 2-3g of EPA & DHA per day (I take 1.5g combined EPA/DHA in the form of 2 NOW Foods Ultra Omega-3 pills), a biotin supplement of 5mg-10mg (often represented as 5,000mcg - 10,000mcg), a multivitamin, and possibly a MSM supplement of 3g/day (this is widely believed in other hair growth circles, like long hair forums, to increase hair growth rates, which may help to push more hairs into the active growing 'anagen' phase). The hair loss benefits of these supplements are rather speculative, but they're cheap, otherwise still beneficial to overall health, and decidedly not dangerous, so you might as well include them unless the modest cost is prohibitive.
Good luck! Keep us posted on how things are going and let me know if you have any other questions.
i am not so bad Norwood 5 or 6 i am a Norwood 3 vertex propably cuz i'm only balding on the hairline and on the vertex ... I just meant to say that my whole top is thinning i think 1 ml is quite enough for me. Thanks for the advice.. when do you gonna post your new photo's
TheLastHairbender
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Cool, if you can get good coverage with 1mL then go for it. You always have the chance to modify the dosage over time. Good luck, stick with it!
Oh and I typically post a new set of photos during the first week of the month, they were a little late this month because I was busy moving. See you in early September!
Oh and I typically post a new set of photos during the first week of the month, they were a little late this month because I was busy moving. See you in early September!