The Myth of Male Pattern Baldness

Bryan

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Then how do you explain the Gooren study? What is going on there?

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...estosterone-a-DHT-antagonist?highlight=Gooren

I have no idea what's going on there. I have no explanation for that study, and I'm not sure what, if anything, that it has to do with fighting male pattern baldness.

Because there are plenty of journal articles showing harmful affects from HRT, the use of the Combined Oral Contraceptive pill and from plant estrogens.

I don't doubt that you have lots of information about the "harmful effects" of HRT, the use of oral contraceptive pills, and plant estrogens, but do you have anything about the harmful effects of estrogens on scalp hair? That's not exactly the same thing as what you said before, is it? ;)

Bryan do you have a link to any research showing estrogen being bad for hair? I know I've seen you post it before but I can't find it.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Out of all the reading I've ever done on estrogens and scalp hair, ALL of it has shown a beneficial effect, except for one obscure Japanese study, and I've never posted about that one in my entire life. All the others have shown beneficial effects, including a lengthy set of findings by German doctors who used various topical estrogens to fight hair loss. That's a pretty good record, isn't it? ALL the medical findings (except for one) support the use of topical estrogens for fighting male pattern baldness?? ;)
 

LawOfThelema

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By the way, you might be interested to know that there was a study a while back by some top-notch hairloss researchers (Happle & Hoffmann) that found something exactly OPPOSITE to what's being implied by the study you quoted: giving additional testosterone to human scalp hair follicles in vitro caused those follicles to synthesize a lot more 5a-reductase type II mRNA, which would obviously generate even _more_ DHT, not less! :)

Do you have this reference, Bryan?

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Current understanding of Androgenetic Alopecia/male pattern baldness/FPB: Hormonal imbalance (possibly involving low progesterone or high ER-a) causes greater DHT expression, which coupled with poor galea bloodflow(probably caused by muscular tension possibly due to an elevated stress hormone) causes sebum build up, infection, inflammation and hair loss. The whole thing may be commonly caused by poor digestive health (probably leaky gut due to dysbiosis, which appears to burden the liver and increase stress).

Current regimen: Boar bristle brushing. Experimenting with topical nicotinic acid and supplementary natural source retinol. I hope to eventually fix my digestive system and overall health.

Current results: Still losing some hair but mostly hair is looking thicker and healthier with lots of visible regrowth at the hairline.


Oh hoppi. How I weep for your terminal hair.
 

boobyinspector

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Interesting because recently I got prescribed a drug that raises cortisol levels and prolactin slightly and my hair has started growing like weed. I'm also taking a drug that raises DHEA substantially. I'm also on finasteride though so it could just be coincidentally that it took this long for finasteride to finally kick in. I just finished 16 months.

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Oh, yet another person who's convinced that estrogen is BAD for hair, right? ;)

I don't care what's bad for hair. I take finasteride because it worked in-vivo. And all the tests done in vitro or on cells mean nothing to me. With that said I'm sure there are studies that show everything is bad for hair.

[h=1]Estrogen leads to reversible hair cycle retardation through inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.[/h]Hu HM, Zhang SB, Lei XH, Deng ZL, Guo WX, Qiu ZF, Liu S, Wang XY, Zhang H, Duan EK.
[h=3]Source[/h]State Key Laboratory of Reproductive Biology, Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Estrogen dysregulation causes hair disorder. Clinical observations have demonstrated that estrogen raises the telogen/anagen ratio and inhibits hairshaft elongation of female scalp hair follicles. In spite of these clinical insights, the properties of estrogen on hair follicles are poorly dissected. In the present study, we show that estrogen induced apoptosis of precortex cells and caused premature catagen by up-regulation of TGF β2. Immediately after the premature catagen, the expression of anagen chalone BMP4 increased. The up-regulation of BMP4 may further function to prevent anagen transition and maintain telogen. Interestingly, the hair follicle stem cell niche was not destructed during these drastic structural changes caused byestrogen. Additionally, dermal papilla cells, the estrogen target cells in hair follicles, kept their signature gene expressions as well as their hairinductive potential after estrogen treatment. Retention of the characteristics of both hair follicle stem cells and dermal papilla cells determined the reversibility of the hair cycle suppression. These results indicated that estrogen causes reversible hair cycle retardation by inducing premature catagen and maintaining telogen.

 

Jacob

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Bryan he markets himself as a guru on hair loss. He's charges people $100 an hour to "consult" with them concerning their hair loss. He's telling guys ridiculous things like "strain your orange juice because the fiber in orange juice is estrogenic". In his world estrogen is "bad" for hair. He has went as far as claiming that "estrogen is the ****storm hormone". I wonder how his female readers feel about stupid Manicheanistic generalizations like that.

Are you talking about IH? Except for the orange juice..there's not much difference there.
 

boobyinspector

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Everything is bad for your hair. You pour sugar on a hair follicle in vitro and it will inhibit its growth. Caffeine apparently makes it grow but doubt that will translate to in vivo. Even estrogen has its faults.

Didn't realize that was posted twice.
 
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HughJass

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I have no idea what's going on there. I have no explanation for that study, and I'm not sure what, if anything, that it has to do with fighting male pattern baldness.

Well, if DHT is responsible for male pattern baldness and testosterone lowers DHT.....

I don't doubt that you have lots of information about the "harmful effects" of HRT, the use of oral contraceptive pills, and plant estrogens, but do you have anything about the harmful effects of estrogens on scalp hair? That's not exactly the same thing as what you said before, is it? ;)

Yes I meant it in the broader context of general health, which is how I thought (correctly or incorrectly) LawofThelema meant it, at least the comment I responded to.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Out of all the reading I've ever done on estrogens and scalp hair, ALL of it has shown a beneficial effect, except for one obscure Japanese study, and I've never posted about that one in my entire life. All the others have shown beneficial effects, including a lengthy set of findings by German doctors who used various topical estrogens to fight hair loss. That's a pretty good record, isn't it? ALL the medical findings (except for one) support the use of topical estrogens for fighting male pattern baldness?? ;)


Do you have the references for any of these handy?
 

Bryan

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Do you have the references for any of these handy?

Here's a post I wrote about five years ago on another site about the German doctors who use topical estrogen for male pattern baldness:

Some people on these forums have the rather odd belief that estrogen is involved in hairloss in a negative way; that is, it actually causes or contributes to balding. They seriously entertain the idea of using powerful systemic aromatase inhibitors like Arimidex! Despite the evidence that I've presented in the past that contradicts that notion and shows that estrogen is actually beneficial for hair follicles, those people continue to believe what they WANT to believe, the evidence be damned. Well, I've just recently found still more evidence which supports a beneficial role for estrogen: it's the chapter "Estrogen Treatment of Hair Diseases", written by U. Schumacher-Stock, in the book "Hair Research" (ed.: Orfanos, Montagna, Stuttgen; Springer-Verlag 1981). I don't want to type out the entire chapter, but let me judiciously pick-and-choose a few excerpts, especially the small test they did with topical estrogen for male pattern baldness:

[...]
"In the light of this favourable effect of estrogen on senile skin, the obvious supposition is that these steroids also have a similarly favourable effect on hair follicles. Estrogens prolong the growth period of hair (Taubert 1976, Winkler 1969) and, in addition, inhibit mitosis (Stuuttgen and Schaefer 1977). Some investigations point, that systemic estrogens increase the proliferation rate, slow down differentiation and, thus, postpone fallout of telogen hairs (Moretti et al. 1977).

"Orentreich (1969) observed a decrease in daily hair fall-out during therapy with systemic doses of estrogen...Lubowe saw good results in androgenetic alopecia by means of the conjugated estrogen Presomen (Lubowe 1972). It can be assumed that the semi-synthetic estrogens, like mestranol and ethinylestradiol, have a stronger effect on hair growth than conjugated estrogens.

"In the treatment of hair diseases, there have been few reports on systemic estrogen. But some authors have been using estrogens for topical treatment of hair diseases for many years (e.g. Funk as long ago as 1951).

"Androgenetic Alopecia, which in many cases causes great suffering, is of particular significance for topical use of estrogens... Topical estrogen treatment can be considered particularly in those cases in which systemic antiandrogen therapy...is not possible.

"According to Zondek, topical use of estrogen solutions is almost as effective as systemic administration of this hormone. Wendker et al. (1976) have demonstrated the good penetration of estradiol solutions right into the cutis. However, no reports of concentration in the subcutis and, thus, at the hair follicle are available.

"Estrogen solutions exist in West Germany as commercial products, but they can also be made up as a prescription. The commercial products are: Alpicort F, Crinohermal-fem and Ell-Cranell. [...]

"We carried out investigations into the effect of estradiol benzoate, incorporated in isopropyl alcohol, on androgenetic alopecia... We selected 35...patients with androgenetic alopecia in whom typical androgenetic alopecia was also present on the basis of history and clinical findings. We treated these patients for at least 6 months with the above-mentioned estrogen solution, in some cases for a year, and in some cases for even longer. Every day a few drops of the prescribed solution were applied to the scalp...

"Trichogram investigations according to the standardized method of Meiers (1975) were carried out on the 5th day after the last hair wash and after withdrawal of all topical therapeutic agents; this was done prior to therapy and 6 to 8 months later during therapy. During the treatment, the patients were only allowed to use a mild shampoo to wash their hair.

"The therapeutic results were evaluated on the basis of the trichogram findings, corresponding to the change in the telogen rate (TR). A decrease in the telogen rate of more than 20% was rated as improvement, values of +/-20% as no improvement, and an increase in the telogen rate of more than 20% as deterioration. The results are summarized in the Table 1.

Table
1. A decrease in the telogen rate of more than 10% was seen in a total of 22 patients = 63%

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Evaluation ..... Telogen rate (TR) ...... No. of patients (35 = 100%)

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improvement ..... >20% decrease ......... 18 = 51.5%
no improvement +/-20% ...................... 12 = 34.2%
deterioration ...... >20% increase ........... 5 = 14.3%

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"Here you can see two particularly good examples of therapeutic success in a woman and a man: a 51-year-old woman patient, telogen rate in the frontal area prior to treatment 42.9%, after treatment 18.0%; a 33-year-old man, telogen rate in the frontal area prior to treament 46.6%, after treatment 20.0%.


"The deterioration of androgenetic alopecia in five patients had to be attributed partly to very irregular use of, and partly to premature withdrawal of, the estrogen tincture. For example, one patient who initially noticed a subjective improvement after 3 months' regular use of the estrogen spirit discontinued treatment on the advise of his general practitioner, who did not consider the therapy meaningful...

"Our results have confirmed the studies by Wustner and Orfanos (1974), who saw an improvement, that is, a decrease of the telogen-rate in 52% of androgenetic alopecia treated with Alpicort-F and Crinohermal-fem. These authors did not find side effects when their preparations were used.

"Our patients too did not report any side effects. [...] Hence, we can say topical use of estrogen is a suitable therapy for androgenetic alopecia. We cannot say whether the hair follicles become accustomed to estrogen application after 10 or more years because the observation period was not longer than 2 years."

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"By the way, you might be interested to know that there was a study a while back by some top-notch hairloss researchers (Happle & Hoffmann) that found something exactly OPPOSITE to what's being implied by the study you quoted: giving additional testosterone to human scalp hair follicles in vitro caused those follicles to synthesize a lot more 5a-reductase type II mRNA, which would obviously generate even _more_ DHT, not less! :)" Do you have this reference, Bryan?

I don't remember exactly what I was talking about when I wrote that post in the past, but here is the study I was referring to: "RNA-levels of 5a-reductase and androgen receptor in human skin, hair follicles and follicle-derived cells", R. Happle and R. Hoffmann. From the book "Hair research for the next millenium", 1996.
 

DonaldAnderson

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Bryan he markets himself as a guru on hair loss. He's charges people $100 an hour to "consult" with them concerning their hair loss. He's telling guys ridiculous things like "strain your orange juice because the fiber in orange juice is estrogenic". In his world estrogen is "bad" for hair. He has went as far as claiming that "estrogen is the ****storm hormone". I wonder how his female readers feel about stupid Manicheanistic generalizations like that.

Females, who have estrogen, usually do not have hair loss. So I doubt he has very many women.
 

uncomfortable man

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So what is the myth, exactly? There seems to be a persistent myth that insists genetically inherited male pattern baldness is somehow treatable with home remedies and such as if it were a head cold or a fever. Rubbing tree bark on your head won't change your genetic code, sorry hippies.
 

boobyinspector

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So what is the myth, exactly? There seems to be a persistent myth that insists genetically inherited male pattern baldness is somehow treatable with home remedies and such as if it were a head cold or a fever. Rubbing tree bark on your head won't change your genetic code, sorry hippies.

Yah but all the splinters that dig into your head will look like hair. :D
 

LawOfThelema

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So what is the myth, exactly? There seems to be a persistent myth that insists genetically inherited male pattern baldness is somehow treatable with home remedies and such as if it were a head cold or a fever. Rubbing tree bark on your head won't change your genetic code, sorry hippies.

This.
 

HughJass

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So what is the myth, exactly? There seems to be a persistent myth that insists genetically inherited male pattern baldness is somehow treatable with home remedies and such as if it were a head cold or a fever. Rubbing tree bark on your head won't change your genetic code, sorry hippies.



So if it's just genetic and we're all doomed why bother taking finasteride/dutasteride/minoxidil?



And paying attention to certain stress hormones which scientific studies indicate *might* be implicated in hair loss and manipulating them through diet and supplementation and personal lab work is 'hippy' stuff?


LOL, ok
 

LawOfThelema

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Some people on these forums have the rather odd belief that estrogen is involved in hairloss in a negative way; that is, it actually causes or contributes to balding. They seriously entertain the idea of using powerful systemic aromatase inhibitors like Arimidex!

My guess is they consider aromatase inhibitors like anastrazole to prevent gynecomastia that can arise from 5aR inhibition.
 

uncomfortable man

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So if it's just genetic and we're all doomed why bother taking finasteride/dutasteride/minoxidil?

Maybe you can postpone the inevitable by supressing the symptoms but it is not fixing the cause as a cure should. I'm not an armchair chemical engineer so I can't engage the more educated on that level. The closest comparison I can make is someone who is genetically prone to diabetes. If they know about their condition then they can take preventative measures to ensure they don't progress to that point by watching their diet and such. I don't know how well that logic translates to someone with a genetic inclination towards hair loss however. Maybe you think you can create the perfect mineral rich soil and internal chemical harmony to enable healthy hair growth but I'm not sure how effective this approach will be against aggressive early onset male pattern baldness. And then there is the point that you don't really know for sure how advanced your hair loss will progress. Some just reach a certain point and mysteriously stop.



And paying attention to certain stress hormones which scientific studies indicate *might* be implicated in hair loss and manipulating them through diet and supplementation and personal lab work is 'hippy' stuff?

But stress related hair loss and male pattern baldness are inherently different animals. If the worlds greatest scientists can't crack the male pattern baldness code and deliver an effective cure then what makes you think that your research will yield results?
 

LawOfThelema

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So if it's just genetic and we're all doomed why bother taking finasteride/dutasteride/minoxidil?


Nothing is "just genetic". The initial cause is believed by scientific accounts to be about 81% hereditary. Genes are expressed via complex biochemical processes, and those processes can be altered, hence the fact that treatments exist.
 

LawOfThelema

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That study is just using outdated ideas about blood lipids as the risk factors for heart disease though.There's no actual incidence of heart attacks being reported. There's plenty of good reason to take the position that lowering cholesterol isn't a good thing and given that the group had which the highest fiber intake had the second lowest total cholesterol readings it just makes me lean a bit more towards the idea that lots of fiber maybe isn't a good idea. In animal studies pectin does some bad things.


In the DART trial there were more heart attacks in the high (cereal) fiber group

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n6/full/1601342a.html

And what do you believe replaces the notion that dietary fats and serum lipid profiles are risk factors in heat disease. Which theory has superseded it?

You dont think that the fact that statins decrease cardiovascular risk along lines predicted by the lipid hypothesis support the hypothesis? The successful showing of this in clinical trials is usually considered the end of the controversy.

Why do you feel otherwise? What evidence in your view shows otherwise?
 
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