The Myth of Male Pattern Baldness

[HughJass]

Anybody familiar with Danny Roddy's approach to treating hairloss? Here are some of the highlights (imo) from one of his recent articles:

"Yet the absolute serum androgen concentrations in men with a disposition to balding is lower than in men with no reduction of scalp hair. The widespread assumption that androgen levels are in general elevated in bald-trait men must therefore be rejected” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1387290


"Significant differences in serum levels of androstenedione, cortisol, 17 beta-estradiol [estrogen] and luteinizing hormone were noted between hair loss patients and control subjects." - Dermatologica. 1991;182(4):214-7. Hormonal parameters in androgenetic hair loss in the male. Schmidt JB, Lindmaier A, Spona J.

​In humans with their seasonally independent hair cycles, hyperprolactinemia is associated with androgenetic alopecia, amenorrhea, infertility, and hirsutism." - Prolactin and Its Receptor Are Expressed in Murine Hair Follicle Epithelium, Show Hair Cycle-Dependent Expression, and Induce Catagen

"The frequency of subnormal values in SHBG, FSH, testosterone and epitestosterone (but not in free androgen index) was significant in the balding men. A borderline significant trend was recorded with respect to increased levels in 17OH-P and prolactin. CONCLUSIONS: The hormonal pattern of a substantial number of men with premature balding resembles in some respects the hormonal pattern of women with polycystic ovary syndrome." - Exp Clin Endocrinol Diabetes. 2004 Jan;112(1):24-8. Hormonal profile of men with premature balding.

"Murine skin and human scalp hair follicles express both prolactin and functional prolactin receptor protein at the gene and protein levels, and prolactin operates as a potent modulator of hair follicle cycling. In mice, prolactin appears to operate primarily as a potent hair growth inhibitor." - ​J Invest Dermatol. 2010 Mar;130(3):886-91. Epub 2009 Nov 5. Mind the (gender) gap: does prolactin exert gender and/or site-specific effects on the human hair follicle?

http://www.dannyroddy.com/the-myth-of-male-pattern-baldnes

Any opinions and is anybody else trying it?

 

[Exodus2011]

high levels of cortisol and estrogen?

looks like we aren't' only balding, but also stressed out pussies.

awesome.

 

[someguuy]

i give you a little on this

prolactin is a inflammation number, higher your inflammation is up higher your prolactin is.

Inflammation is a marker of liver disorder, literlally everything starts in your hair,hair is a reference to your overall health.

Pay attention athletes that dont go bald careers last longer. Its because they are healthier.

Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, played well late into there careers.

But Matt Hasselback, Jim Mchamahon, jeff george faded early

name a bald nfl player that played well late in his career.

Hair on top of head is hard to grow, the overall health of a person comes out on tongue, bags under eyes, and hair first.

 

[MisterMister]

i give you a little on this

prolactin is a inflammation number, higher your inflammation is up higher your prolactin is.

Inflammation is a marker of liver disorder, literlally everything starts in your hair,hair is a reference to your overall health.

Pay attention athletes that dont go bald careers last longer. Its because they are healthier.

Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Warren Moon, played well late into there careers.

But Matt Hasselback, Jim Mchamahon, jeff george faded early

name a bald nfl player that played well late in his career.

Hair on top of head is hard to grow, the overall health of a person comes out on tongue, bags under eyes, and hair first.

Maybe its a coincidence?

But there are top athletes that balded early, Michael Jordan the greatest NBA player ever, he started thinning early and shaved his hair off in his late 20s/

Also I read somewhere that a lot of people who bald could be iron deficient or b vitamin deficient and don't know it. Also thyroid problems can cause it as well.

 

[LawOfThelema]

Classic case of correlation is not causation. That is the worst article concerning male pattern baldness I've ever seen. None of those citations he gives elucidate any causal pathways or mechanisms, nor do his embelishments give any. He just repeats "stress" and "inflammation" over and over again in the hopes you will buy what he selling. He never elucidates how stress and inflammation play into balding. Mainly because he hasn't got a clue. The stuff Ray Peat says is just widely out of line with findings from experimental dermatology. Like "testosterone makes the hair grow thicker and prolactin causes it to fall out". Funny, that's not what hamilton found when he administered testosterone to his subjects. These guys think that calcium, sunlight, red meat, and orange juice can stop male pattern baldness. Good luck with that.

 

[Bryan]

Testosterone suppresses the growth of scalp hair follicles, even when given to such hair follicles in vitro. That happens in both humans and stumptailed macaques.

 

[LawOfThelema]

Roddy banned me from his blog for pointing out similar inconvenient facts. His theory can't account for the fact that there are greater density of androgen receptors in balding scalps compared to nonbalding controls and to nonbalding portions of the balding scalp. It kills his theory of "low free T therefore androgens play no role in balding". Sub "normal" T can still lead to enough DHT to bind to those receptors and express androgen sensitive genes that miniaturize the hair. Also the PgD2 inhibiting hair growth finding from last year... testosterone sensitive transcript... but he wouldnt' know this because all he does cut and paste little quips he finds from abstracts online. I bet not a single member of the diet causes Androgenetic Alopecia community ever read the complete paper of the abstract which says free t was significantly lower in premature balding. I also doubt they know that statistically significant does not mean causally meaningful

 

[Bryan]

Who the hell is "Danny Roddy"??

 

[Jacob]

www.google.com

 

[LawOfThelema]

Bryan he markets himself as a guru on hair loss. He's charges people $100 an hour to "consult" with them concerning their hair loss. He's telling guys ridiculous things like "strain your orange juice because the fiber in orange juice is estrogenic". In his world estrogen is "bad" for hair. He has went as far as claiming that "estrogen is the ****storm hormone". I wonder how his female readers feel about stupid Manicheanistic generalizations like that.

 

[Bryan]

Oh, yet another person who's convinced that estrogen is BAD for hair, right?

 

[Armando Jose]

Bryan he markets himself as a guru on hair loss. He's charges people $100 an hour to "consult" with them concerning their hair loss. He's telling guys ridiculous things like "strain your orange juice because the fiber in orange juice is estrogenic". In his world estrogen is "bad" for hair. He has went as far as claiming that "estrogen is the ****storm hormone". I wonder how his female readers feel about stupid Manicheanistic generalizations like that.

He is wrong in my opinion but he is not a guru like others...

Roddy's web

Make sure to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. Trust no one, including me. Please do not confuse me for a guru or an expert.
Thanks for visiting,
Danny Roddy
San Francisco, California

 

[LawOfThelema]

Semantics. Look at behavior, not by what people say of themselves.

 

[Armando Jose]

It is possible LoT

 

[HughJass]

Testosterone suppresses the growth of scalp hair follicles, even when given to such hair follicles in vitro. That happens in both humans and stumptailed macaques.

Are there any circumstances where testosterone will have the opposite effect though?

Oh, yet another person who's convinced that estrogen is BAD for hair, right?

can't estrogen be both though (good and bad for hair)?

- - - Updated - - -

Roddy banned me from his blog for pointing out similar inconvenient facts.

Hey LawOfThelema


I don't suppose you a have a link to the pages where you pointed out these things and were subsequently banned? would be interesting reading

The stuff Ray Peat says is just widely out of line with findings from experimental dermatology. Like "testosterone makes the hair grow thicker and prolactin causes it to fall out".

the claim about prolactin doesn't seem unreasonable given the mice study which was posted

has went as far as claiming that "estrogen is the ****storm hormone"

Estrogen's dangers appear well documented to me....

He's telling guys ridiculous things like "strain your orange juice because the fiber in orange juice is estrogenic".

Among other things, fiber is made up of phytoestrogens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignan

These guys think that calcium, sunlight, red meat, and orange juice can stop male pattern baldness. Good luck with that.

I remain unconvinced that environmental factors can be so easily dismissed as explanations of hairloss:

The Aborigines of Australia are recognized to be the oldest living race of mankind. Note the prominent eyebrows and deep set eyes. The man at the upper right is holding his spears and wamara, or spear thrower. They are very fond of decorations on their bodies. Little baldness was seen even in the very old.
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_librar ... ice10.html

I know it's a small sample size but I live in Australia and see much baldness amongst older aboriginals now. I've contacted a researcher who has done studies on more hunter gatherer groups. Waiting to hear back...

 

[Bryan]

"Testosterone suppresses the growth of scalp hair follicles, even when given to such hair follicles in vitro. That happens in both humans and stumptailed macaques."

Are there any circumstances where testosterone will have the opposite effect though?

Not to my knowledge.

can't estrogen be both though (good and bad for hair)?

Both "good" and "bad" for male pattern baldness?? Not to my knowledge.

- - - Updated - - -

Estrogen's dangers appear well documented to me....

Where do you think it's "well documented"??

 

[LawOfThelema]

Are there any circumstances where testosterone will have the opposite effect though?





can't estrogen be both though (good and bad for hair)?

- - - Updated - - -




Hey LawOfThelema


I don't suppose you a have a link to the pages where you pointed out these things and were subsequently banned? would be interesting reading



the claim about prolactin doesn't seem unreasonable given the mice study which was posted



Estrogen's dangers appear well documented to me....



Among other things, fiber is made up of phytoestrogens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignan



I remain unconvinced that environmental factors can be so easily dismissed as explanations of hairloss:

The Aborigines of Australia are recognized to be the oldest living race of mankind. Note the prominent eyebrows and deep set eyes. The man at the upper right is holding his spears and wamara, or spear thrower. They are very fond of decorations on their bodies. Little baldness was seen even in the very old.
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_librar ... ice10.html

I know it's a small sample size but I live in Australia and see much baldness amongst older aboriginals now. I've contacted a researcher who has done studies on more hunter gatherer groups. Waiting to hear back...

Well androgens appear to be "good" for your pubic hair and beard hair, but "bad" for your scalp hair. This is the so called "paradox of androgens" in dermatology.

I don't have links. Search his old blogs for comments by the user spirit infusion. I honestly can't imagine he approved any of them given he didn't approve the last comment. I come off as a prick sometimes and was probably combative.

Regarding the native Australians. We can't really say anything. Different populations will surely have different frequencies of the gene mutations associated with balding. There are some twins studies, and the largest one looked at 1000 pairs of twins separated by zygodicity. The conclusion of their analysis was that balding was 81% due to polygenic heredity. Another user told me that "this study doesnt pertain to the discussion on diet", but I disagree. Twins studies methodology specifically tries to account for shared and non shared environment. Diet is itself a part of nonshared environment. That 19% encompasses ALL the nonshared environemental factors. Diet influence can't be very large if their analysis is correct. Interestingly despite a polygenic hereditary cause the differences in balding were best accounted for in their model by a single continuous parameter model, rather than a multifactorial one. Ie: there is a single dimension (gaussian variable) on which balding occurs and the differences observed in balding pattern is simply due to greater progression rather than there being genuinely different types or subtypes of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Regarding fiber as having phytoestrogens in its composition-- ok, so what? I have no reason to believe that some all phytoestrogens in all circumstances are bad for health. I have more reason to believe that some phytoestrogen in the diet could have beneficial effects than not. I have even more reason to believe that fiber has beneficial effects as part of the diet. Part of the western diet that everyone rails against (and other diets like the eastern european, where they actually show a life expectancy gap) is an extremely low amount of fiber in the diet.

 

[HughJass]

Not to my knowledge.

Then how do you explain the Gooren study? What is going on there?

http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interac...estosterone-a-DHT-antagonist?highlight=Gooren

Where do you think it's "well documented"??

Because there are plenty of journal articles showing harmful affects from HRT, the use of the Combined Oral Contraceptive pill and from plant estrogens.


Bryan do you have a link to any research showing estrogen being bad for hair? I know I've seen you post it before but I can't find it.

- - - Updated - - -

Well androgens appear to be "good" for your pubic hair and beard hair, but "bad" for your scalp hair. This is the so called "paradox of androgens" in dermatology.

I don't have links. Search his old blogs for comments by the user spirit infusion. I honestly can't imagine he approved any of them given he didn't approve the last comment. I come off as a prick sometimes and was probably combative.

Regarding the native Australians. We can't really say anything. Different populations will surely have different frequencies of the gene mutations associated with balding. There are some twins studies, and the largest one looked at 1000 pairs of twins separated by zygodicity. The conclusion of their analysis was that balding was 81% due to polygenic heredity. Another user told me that "this study doesnt pertain to the discussion on diet", but I disagree. Twins studies methodology specifically tries to account for shared and non shared environment. Diet is itself a part of nonshared environment. That 19% encompasses ALL the nonshared environemental factors. Diet influence can't be very large if their analysis is correct. Interestingly despite a polygenic hereditary cause the differences in balding were best accounted for in their model by a single continuous parameter model, rather than a multifactorial one. Ie: there is a single dimension (gaussian variable) on which balding occurs and the differences observed in balding pattern is simply due to greater progression rather than there being genuinely different types or subtypes of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Regarding fiber as having phytoestrogens in its composition-- ok, so what? I have no reason to believe that some all phytoestrogens in all circumstances are bad for health. I have more reason to believe that some phytoestrogen in the diet could have beneficial effects than not. I have even more reason to believe that fiber has beneficial effects as part of the diet. Part of the western diet that everyone rails against (and other diets like the eastern european, where they actually show a life expectancy gap) is an extremely low amount of fiber in the diet.

cheers for replying


I disagree with you there about fiber. There have never been any clinical trials on humans showing a benefit, few that showed absolutely no benefit and some that showed harmful effects (from cereal fiber though). The observational studies are all over the place and could never be used to prove anything anyway. Given that a)we can't digest it b) it can feed bad gut bacteria and cause gastric distress c) there have been groups of people living off basically no fiber without many problems and d)there are rat studies showing it can be harmful, I lean towards it being more bad than good. At least in large amounts.

 

[LawOfThelema]

Regarding clinical studies. That's simply not true. You will never find a study which proves that more fiber in the diet increases the risk for atherosclerosis.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/6/1085.full

 

[HughJass]

Regarding clinical studies. That's simply not true. You will never find a study which proves that more fiber in the diet increases the risk for atherosclerosis.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/6/1085.full

That study is just using outdated ideas about blood lipids as the risk factors for heart disease though.There's no actual incidence of heart attacks being reported. There's plenty of good reason to take the position that lowering cholesterol isn't a good thing and given that the group had which the highest fiber intake had the second lowest total cholesterol readings it just makes me lean a bit more towards the idea that lots of fiber maybe isn't a good idea. In animal studies pectin does some bad things.


In the DART trial there were more heart attacks in the high (cereal) fiber group

http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v56/n6/full/1601342a.html