The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[The Gardener]

So let me see your point: since Hamas is so brute compaired to Israel, it is ok if they wipe out the whole country to destroy it.

No, that's not my point at all. My point is that I don't think making Israelis have to live under threat of rocket attack is a fair solution either. I mean, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, forced the settlers out of their homes in Gaza and made them return to Israel proper. Frankly, I think that's a pretty fair concession that Israel made, and to have it replied to by rocket attacks from Hamas doesn't seem right to me.

Which in fact, I believe is not the primary objective of Israeli government at the moment, but it is very very suitable to dress up in humanitarian clothes the extremeties of their conquest. If I were driven away from my home, it would be war, and of course the weaker one would conveniently become the "terrorist".

The only entity I have labeled "terrorist" here is the Hamas organization, and this is due to their use of suicide bombings and rocket attacks.

Now regarding my "Palestines becoming the new Jews" comment, I found your wikipedia link very very interesting and in fact brought several occasions of holocaust abuse during past conversations that I have heard or participated in. It has an impact that veils a weak set of arguments with cheap strong impressions. That said, I believe that a nation grows through it's history, evolves through the memory of pain that it's ancestors have gone through, becomes richer in ideas and more sensitive and aware of the value of human life. That was what I was trying to say, Israel has experienced pain and persecution and it's government policy should have a human face to the world to reflect that. The pure numbers of the conflict (16vs800? not sure correct me), the fact that medics are being shot, hospitals are being bombarded, medical aid is restricted do not echo a nation that has evolved through it's painful past.

That's a fair statement. There are some aspects of Israeli tactics that I don't agree with at all, specifically the use of tungsten-based warheads that emit known carcinogens... DIME munitions. I think its a sick and inhumane munition to use.

I am not sure how things are in US but in Europe there is evident general dislike of Israel's policy. I am not adding that to support my views, just merely reporting how things are on the other side of the world.

There are Americans on both sides of the issue here, but I think the general views of Americans are one of both sides having dirty and bloody hands. That being said, I think there is somewhat of a natural tendency to identify with Israel because they are more culturally similar to us. I mean, when an American sees pictures of an Israeli city, it just seems like a culture that "looks more similar" to ours. I'm not claiming this to be a logical rationale as to view one side better than the other, but I think there is an element of this in play.

 

[ali777]

I am not sure how things are in US but in Europe there is evident general dislike of Israel's policy. I am not adding that to support my views, just merely reporting how things are on the other side of the world.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you there. In my observations, there is no sympathy for Israel in Europe at the moment...

Back to what the Gardener said about Hamas using the civilians and the Israeli forces giving them prior warnings... I watch Ch4 news in the UK, and day after day the Israeli officials fail to explain themselves, or make contradicting statements. I'm aware of the political spin the pro-Israelis are putting and the Americans buying it. I have been reading Gardener's posts for 7 months now, and he comes across as a very intelligible person, but he's wrong in believing what he reads in the US press. Unfortunately, the political spin manages to persuade even a smart guy like the Gardener.

One of the UN officials is a regular commentator on Ch4 news, and every day he keeps repeating that the Israeli forces have not given them a warning that the UN school or the compound were to be bombed. Yet, the Israeli officials come out and claim that there were not only terrorists in the area but they've been firing from the vicinity as well.. The UN guy, again strongly denies those claims, and says they have been given a reassurance that the UN compound would not be targeted. Most of the time the Israelis contradict themselves.

I see this as a systematic violence against civilians with the ultimate aim being Arab free Palestine. The Israelis have been making life hard for the Arabs for 40 years now, eg the settlements, check points, etc. Even if they reach a peace deal tomorrow, it's still going to be a prison camp.

There is another thread in this forum about the right to bear fire arms, and a few of the Americans keep repeating that they want to use the firearms to defend their homes, or set up a militia army in case someone invades their land. Yet, the same people refuse to understand why the likes of Hamas gain support. I'm not trying to justify Hamas, but it is the same mentality... You can't defend an idea and oppose it if it is coming from someone else.

Any form of violence, arms, army, conflict is bad.....

 

[The Gardener]

I'm afraid I have to agree with you there. In my observations, there is no sympathy for Israel in Europe at the moment.

Americans and Europeans are different. And there are some nations within Europe who do not share your views.

I have been reading Gardener's posts for 7 months now, and he comes across as a very intelligible person, but he's wrong in believing what he reads in the US press. Unfortunately, the political spin manages to persuade even a smart guy like the Gardener.

I read press from all over the world, as part of my job. Frankly, the facts as presented in US media are exactly the same as those presented in The Guardian. I don't think the problem is what I believe or not believe, I think the problem is that you and Aussie really don't KNOW what my position is. (I'll get into that further down below in my post.) In your minds, anyone who is not totally pro-Hamas in this is totally pro-Israel. Well, I'm NOT 100% pro-Israel. And I've made that clear for months, (although sometimes I have argued BOTH pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian positions in the past just for the sake of sport.) Frankly, I think there's a lot of unfair bias in European media due to post-colonial guilt, and due to the increasing Muslim minorities in European cities. No one nation holds a monopoly on media bias.

One of the UN officials is a regular commentator on Ch4 news, and every day he keeps repeating that the Israeli forces have not given them a warning that the UN school or the compound were to be bombed. Yet, the Israeli officials come out and claim that there were not only terrorists in the area but they've been firing from the vicinity as well.. The UN guy, again strongly denies those claims, and says they have been given a reassurance that the UN compound would not be targeted. Most of the time the Israelis contradict themselves.

Contradiction happens during war. So do field commanders who mis-assess a situation and shoot at targets they should not. I think if you went up to an Israeli field commander and asked him "were you intending to kill UN people in their compound" the answer would be no, and he would be honest in saying that. I'd wager a bet that an individual group of soldiers or airmen mis-assessed a situation and fired out of fear, contrary to their orders, and their actions should be reviewed and they should be punished if they were negligent.

I see this as a systematic violence against civilians with the ultimate aim being Arab free Palestine. The Israelis have been making life hard for the Arabs for 40 years now, eg the settlements, check points, etc. Even if they reach a peace deal tomorrow, it's still going to be a prison camp.

I AGREE that the status quo situation in Gaza is unacceptable. If the Iranians can smuggle increasingly more advanced rocketry into Gaza, then why do they not smuggle in food and/or development funding instead? See, THIS is actually the crux of my reservation with the anti-Israeli side here... there are some Middle Eastern nations who NEED and WANT the Palestinian conflict to bleed on, and they are using Palestinians as a political Propecia to enrich their own political standing. Iran and Syria have NO interests in a true Palestinian-Israeli peace, and these nations I view as being MUCH more toxic and insidious than the Israelis are in respect to Palestine.

Iran and Syria are waging a proxy war in Palestine to advance their own interests. There have been numerous rapprochments between Israel and Palestine in the past, and EVERY time, Iran and Syria have been the entities that have ruined them.

There is another thread in this forum about the right to bear fire arms, and a few of the Americans keep repeating that they want to use the firearms to defend their homes, or set up a militia army in case someone invades their land. Yet, the same people refuse to understand why the likes of Hamas gain support. I'm not trying to justify Hamas, but it is the same mentality... You can't defend an idea and oppose it if it is coming from someone else.

If some American militia started lobbing rockets into Canada, I'd understand if the rest of the world decided to put an arms blockade on American ports.

 

[barca FC]

[quote="SE-freak":1o9yol6h]So let me see your point: since Hamas is so brute compaired to Israel, it is ok if they wipe out the whole country to destroy it.

No, that's not my point at all. My point is that I don't think making Israelis have to live under threat of rocket attack is a fair solution either. I mean, Israel completely withdrew from Gaza, forced the settlers out of their homes in Gaza and made them return to Israel proper.[/quote:1o9yol6h]

then why they did not stop the blockade on gaza....for 6 months during the so called truce.... food supplies, and medical supplies were not allowed to enter gaza, they had very limited electricity. add to that the non stop assassinations... what I am trying to say is think twice before blaming the arabs for every thing bad in this world...like in this case its clear that what happened is israel's fault...if ur doing what they have done ur just asking for rockets to fall on top of u

 

[barca FC]

The pure numbers of the conflict (16vs800? not sure correct me

its around 1200

 

[The Gardener]

...what I am trying to say is think twice before blaming the arabs for every thing bad in this world...

Jesus Christ, ONCE AGAIN another straw man argument attempting to put OUTRAGEOUS words in my mouth!

Where and when did I EVER "blame the Arabs" for everything bad in this world? I would not and have not EVER said ANYTHING to this effect.

I think you guys need to re-examine your own biases. And I mean that seriously. Have you ever considered that the bias you accuse ME of is, in actuality, really a byproduct of your OWN biases? Have you ever contemplated the possibility that its perhaps YOU who are the one who has been conditioned with unfair and illogical biases, and not me?

 

[Smooth]

(Lol :woot: good luck putting some sense there, i gave up long time ago, some people just like to argue for sake of arrgueing without listening {some just not worth our time...hehe :innocent: })

 

[The Gardener]

Well, Smooth, I am of the STRONG belief in support of a State of Israel that exists in peace, and is allowed to flourish and prosper... but I must say that I think some of your leaders are horrid, and take advantage of petty situations in order to score political points that, unfortunately, usually include the death and maiming of hundreds if not thousands of innocent Palestinians.

Your government deserves better, and YOU deserve better. I said previously in this thread that the Palestinians need NOT another warlord but an Martin Luther King-type figure.... and now that I think about it, not only the Palestinians but ALSO the Israelis need an Martin Luther King-type figure of their own. And both nations need such a figure AT THE SAME TIME.

The growth of Israeli settlements on the Palestinian side of the 1967 borders needs to STOP. And stop NOW. You and I both know that its inflammatory and not fair. You and I both know that if Israel withdrew from the West Bank in a similar fashion as you very courageously withdrew from Gaza, then Israel would reclaim a LOT of "high ground" and moral soft power in the world, which would only end up serving Israel well in the out years and help diffuse all of this hatred that is spewed on forums such as this one.

Smooth, our nations will always be friends, but some of Israel's actions are making things hard for both of us. I hope and pray that leadership emerges on ALL sides of this conflict that can see beyond short term pettiness and comes to a long term arrangement that serves all concerned very well. Iran and Syria are NOT Palestine's friends... they are only using the Palestinians for their own ends... Frankly, I think that Israel and Palestine could be each others' best and closest friends.

 

[Old Baldy]

Re: Max Blumenthal Interviews Israel Supporters At Rally In NY.

So do you mean: Once the Americans stop providing military arms to Israel, they will weaken to the point where the Arabs will wipe them off the map?

That will never happen as long as the Israeli's have nukes

The US government have the power to stop Israel from expanding it's settlements, which are the main obstacle to a solution, by withholding loans and military aid. Bush's support has been unconditional which is why there has been no progress.

Even if Israel gets full US backing forever, the Arab population inside Israel will be larger than the Jewish population in two decades time, so it probably won't be able to hold onto all of it's current territory anyway.

What would you do?

Would you stop settlement expansion, draw up boundaries and give Palestine a separate and distinct area/region to govern as its own country? And, at the same time, Israel would have its own separate and distinct boundaries that everyone in that region would respect also?

That doesn't sound bad to me. Do you agree?

Do you think Arab political organizations would agree with this solution?

Do you think Israel would agree with this solution?

It seems so simple that I assume neither side would agree with this solution. And that is what pisses me off with this entire situation.

But, like I said, I'm not very knowledgable about this conflict.

Edit: Other guys chime in here also.

Do many of you feel Israel is "expansion" addicted? Are the Arabs "wipe out Israel" addicted?

 

[The Gardener]

Guys whats all this sh*t about Iran and Syria Iran and Syria. Doesn't t the US support isreal?! So why cant Iran and Syria support Palestine?! Why is it so wrong. The US supports isreal because like The Gardner said they can relate to them and they are Western. Its the same thing with Iran and Syria supporting Palestine. Why is it such a taboo. Iran and Syria should be doing even more and i hope they do to help out all the people of Palestine in acheiving victory against this barbaric zionist regime. Isreal officially lost this war and its known to everybody that none(zero) of their objectives were met. Instead they gave legitmacy to Hamas and they united all of the Muslim and Arab(Arab Christians too) world. If victory is measured in how many little boys, girls and women were killed, then isreal won. It is the begining of the end for these barbaric basturds. (Its true you know most of the isreali army are basturds. They let Palestininan prisoners screw a bunch of prostitutes and then they take the babies((the mothers ofcoarse not objecting because the baby is half Palestinian)) and they raise them in the army and form them the way they want them to be. Murderers!

You either didn't read my piece thouroughly enough, or don't have enough political science education to understand it. Re-read it, I'll repost it right here below:

There are some Middle Eastern nations who NEED and WANT the Palestinian conflict to bleed on, and they are using Palestinians as a political Propecia to enrich their own political standing. Iran and Syria have NO interests in a true Palestinian-Israeli peace, and these nations I view as being MUCH more toxic and insidious than the Israelis are in respect to Palestine.

Syria and Iran have NO interest in a stable and prosperous Palestine. They WANT Palestine to be poor, separated, and under siege because this political dynamic supports their OWN political aims. Iran is waging a proxy war in Palestine just as the US waged a proxy war in Vietnam. Iran is using the Palestinians.

 

[Smooth]

They let Palestininan prisoners screw a bunch of prostitutes and then they take the babies((the mothers ofcoarse not objecting because the baby is half Palestinian)) and they raise them in the army and form them the way they want them to be. Murderers!

Yup, this is indeed "The Truth" :shakehead: ...(i truly fear some poeple take hes words as granted).
The Gardener, appreciate your noval way of thinking, but i strongly belive there will never be peace, not with a partner which have democratly ellected the Hamas as their leaders by vast majority of votes

The growth of Israeli settlements on the Palestinian side of the 1967 borders needs to STOP. And stop NOW. You and I both know that its inflammatory and not fair. You and I both know that if Israel withdrew from the West Bank in a similar fashion as you very courageously withdrew from Gaza, then Israel would reclaim a LOT of "high ground" and moral soft power in the world, which would only end up serving Israel well in the out years and help diffuse all of this hatred that is spewed on forums such as this one.

I agree, most Isrealis know by now that the West Bank is only a matter of time, question is: in what price?
If you followed the news while Isreal withdrew from Gaza, manny voices where heard from inside Israel about the way we went out with no agreement from the other side, huge sectors opposed this move saying that leaving Gaza without an agreement will only give more power to the terrorizing organizations within Gaza, i agree and understand that now more then ever! Israel went out of Gaza with no promises for future talkings about peace, terrorists interpreted the onesided move as "victory", this mistake (you maybe suprised) hurt the palastienas more then it helped them, more power to terrorists that doesnt care killing and masacrring thier own poeple (Hamas) that was a bad call, we should have went out BUT with a promise for a better future, wasnt the main goal for going out of Gaza to achive some sort of "calmness" to allow conversation towards peace to take place?? but what did we get instead?! more power to extreme organizations, never ceasing fire and bombing our cities for years, dont want to negotiate the release of Gilad Shalit (kidnaped Israeli soldier, may god hug this brave boy at these horrible time) ..this said and done, YOU have to realize that if you want Isreal to withdrew from the West Bank there most be a true partner for peace, otherwise we achived nothing other then empowering terrorists groups even more, and if you bothered checking all the links i gave on this thread you also should know by now that Hamas doesnt belive in Israel right to exsit, and tell me now, what do you think will happend if we wethdrew from West Bank during Hamas goverment in power?? :whistle:

(personaly and unfortunately i come to realization that there will never be peace, ever! period :dunno: , i understand the palastinians and the muslim mentality now, and i truly belive that someday one side will have to give up, i wonder how it will break down, surely i dont wanna be here to see for myself tho)

 

[SE-freak]

(Lol :woot: good luck putting some sense there, i gave up long time ago, some people just like to argue for sake of arrgueing without listening {some just not worth our time...hehe :innocent: })

Stop insulting people. If you do not want to participate in this thread be my guest. I argue because of belief and because I value people of this forum even if they have different views, which maybe sounds outrageous in your mind and contrary to your understanding of dialogue.

 

[Smooth]

Stop insulting people. If you do not want to participate in this thread be my guest. I argue because of belief and because I value people of this forum even if they have different views, which maybe sounds outrageous in your mind and contrary to your understanding of dialogue.

Hey! no one told you to stop arguing, i just doubt your motives, nonetheless if you dont like what i have to say your more then welcome to put me in your foes list, i wont be insulted, i promise... :mrgreen:

 

[SE-freak]

Stop insulting people. If you do not want to participate in this thread be my guest. I argue because of belief and because I value people of this forum even if they have different views, which maybe sounds outrageous in your mind and contrary to your understanding of dialogue.

Hey! no one told you to stop arguing, i just doubt your motives, nonetheless if you dont like what i have to say your more then welcome to put me in your foes list, i wont be insulted, i promise... :mrgreen:

Well, there is no doubt about your motives. At least I am given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Hammy070]

This topic is endlessly cyclical and doesn't need to be.

Zionists wanted Palestine primarily, safety secondarily, otherwise they'd have got a state in the many, many areas of the world that would accomodate them.

Now this is a problem, because Palestine is not uninhabited, and the vast majority of it's population for over a thousand years and to this day, are not Jews/Zionists and consider it very much their homeland.

So for Zionism to be fulfilled, the land needs to be seized by force, as I'm not aware of any people in the history of the of the world willingly giving up most of their land for foreigners, which is what pro-Zionists expect of them.

Now if you believe Palestinians inherently have no rights to their land, then say so. If you DO believe they have a right similar to all other peoples to their land, then you cannot simultaneously be pro-Zionist.

You CANNOT be both, you cannot say you support the establishment and ongoing construction of a Zionist State whilst also agreeing the Palestinians have a right to their land.

Pick one, then go from there. I don't care which one, but don't attempt to reconcile two completely opposing viewpoints.

If you believe Zionism is a valid cause in Palestine, then state your reasoning, and why this reasoning nullifies Palestinian rights.

If you cannot provide reasoning that nullifies a persons right to their land and home, and you remain pro-Israeli-Zionist, then consider reversing the mental effects of mass media penetration.

 

[The Gardener]

You are just saying that without providing facts. How are Syria and Iran using the Palestinain conflict to better their intrests?
Please explain to me because i really want to understand the facts that you think you know.

Here is an overview:
http://www.globalpolitician.com/23150-iran

Iran has regional power ambitions. This is NOT to say that I am claiming that Iran is "evil", or wants to invade everyone, or wants to rule the Mideast... but they have ambitions of being a hegemon in the region. This can be seen in Iran's propping up of movements such as Hizballah, and Hamas. A smouldering Palestine conflict serves several purposes for Iran, from a geopolitical context. First, it preoccupies the US and Israel. Second, it drives a wedge between Israel and Turkey, who are allies... as Iran views Turkey as an emerging geopolitical competitor in the region. Third, it drives a wedge between the US and Europe. Fourth, by preoccupying Israel in Palestine, it gives cover for Iran and Syria to continue to Finlandize Lebanon, which is of GREAT economic benefit to Syria and to Iran (Hizballah). Fifth, by acting in the role as "arsenal of Palestine" it undermines Iran's competitors for regional power (Saudi Arabia and the Sunni bloc), which helps Iran gain credibility on the Arab street.

This is all propaganda that you have been indoctirnated with. Now the rehtoric in the media about Iran is intesfying because i think the US is preparing for a war against Iran. They want to dupe the American People(again) into thinking Iran is a threat to them. They are going to prepare for this war by using Afganistan as a major front. Wait and see. I really don't understand how the US can take huge risks like this for isreal.

Frankly speaking, I think your assessment of the US and Israel always being the bad guy and Iran and Syria having snow white intentions is the position that is most tinged wtih propaganda. The truth of the matter is that no nations are "evil", and instead, ALL nations have interests and act in accordance with these interests, and Iran and Syria have both repeatedly taken actions that clearly demonstrate they have interests and goals that extend beyond their own sovereign national borders. Geopolitical analysis requires dispassionate examination of dynamics on a broader scale than is often portrayed in the media. Whenever I hear that "this side is evil" or words to that effect, its a sign of a poor geopolitical analysis. ALL actions of nations are based on interests, NOT on morals.

If the US didn't support isreal, terrorism would stop.

That's laughable.

But that would never happen because too many zionists jews control our government and they are very ready to put our troops in harms way for their own interests. You think they care about honest god loving Americans? They are the "Chosen Ones"

And that is just plain WAY off the reservation. I can identify with and respect those who support the Palestinian cause, but when statements like this are made, I have to ask just WHO here has been fed the propaganda.

 

[Smooth]

At least I am given the benefit of the doubt

Son of Holocaust survivors explains how deeply offended he is that Israel justifies it's 'Nazi' (his words) behaviour with the blood of his murdered family. All obfuscation aside, Israel is simply a murderous rogue state that occupies and oppresses millions for half a century. It was founded by ethnic cleansing, terrorism, treachery and war. You may object to the style of what I say, but these are basically facts.

Thank you.

So much for "giving the benefit of the doubt" there.... :roll:

Well, there is no doubt about your motives

M.. what are they exactly??

Smooth I don't think your smooth enough man

Please accept my deepest and most sincere apologize or not staning up to your high level standarts of "Smoothness" me lord :notworthy

You zionists always manipulate the sitution where you guys make it sound like your the ones who are living in an open air prison with hardley any food, water, medcine, and electricity.

M... intresting claim, can you back this up please?

Your standard of living in isreal is better than that of the US

You never cease to suprise me, please, back your claims with some sorth of solid source... ill give you an example:
you say:

Secondly why do you refer to Hamas as terrorits.

and i point you to read some :

Ashdod Port attack (2004)
Jerusalem bus 2 suicide bombing (2003)
Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing (2003)
Jerusalem bus 20 suicide bombing (2002)
Pat Junction Bus Bombing (2002)
Matza restaurant suicide bombing (2002)
Passover massacre (2002)
Café Moment bombing (2002)
Ben Yehuda Street bombings (2001/1997/1975/1948)
Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing (2001)

or even watch a "nice" clip made by a palastineas guy.

All actions above carried by the Hamas.. i belive an organization that brainwash and send little kids to bomb themselves inside bus stations can saftly be called a "terror organization"...and should be treated as such.

you bet your *** i'm going to strap on that vest and blow the sh*t out of him.

Thats a good sign of a true idealist.

Smooth man your a zionist

Lol i swear to god i have no idea what that even means anymore, if by your defenition a Zionist is a person who belive Israel has the right to excist then maybe i m, if you think its the orthodox jews then im sorry to dissapoint you buddy... im pritty much a regular guy who loves hes country and would like to live in world of peace and quite.

i don't disagree with Hamas if they don't beleive you guys should exist because you shouldn't.

For this i shall respone with an old sayin:

Evantually the ugly face of the truth reveal itself.

 

[SE-freak]

I consider flame out of topic and damaging to this thread's coherence. I will pass.

 

[monitoradiation]

and i point you to read some :

Ashdod Port attack (2004)
Jerusalem bus 2 suicide bombing (2003)
Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing (2003)
Jerusalem bus 20 suicide bombing (2002)
Pat Junction Bus Bombing (2002)
Matza restaurant suicide bombing (2002)
Passover massacre (2002)
Café Moment bombing (2002)
Ben Yehuda Street bombings (2001/1997/1975/1948)
Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing (2001)

Smooth, I'm wondering if you have any documents about their "terrorist activities" from after their majority election in 2006? It might sound disingenuous, but I assure you that it's not.

We need to consider their recent actions to determine whether or not they are still a terrorist organization. The goals of the organization as well as the methods by which they obtain them might change; and if their methods change, they're no longer a terrorist organization. The lack of recent activities may be due to their increased legitimacy; so they could've "cleaned up their act", so to speak.

 

[Hammy070]

Hamas is 20 years old. They are not a cause of the underlying problem, discussing the methods and ideology of a fairly new resistance movement is the Zionist strategy to defer and prevent discussion of the main issues. Israel says Hamas won't recognize Israel, fires rockets etc. There were many years when Palestine officially sacrificed 78% of their property, recognized Israel and committed to peaceful relations. Arafat done this, a situation unthinkable today was a reality for many years, what Israel unfairly demands today was given heroically by the Palestinians. What did Israel do? They expanded settlements, refused to stop occupying Palestine, further restricted Palestinian freedom, made new checkpoints and road blocks which strangled an already decaying Palestinian economy. This was Israels response, in a non-violent situation. So anyone who has a mythical fantasy in their minds that Hamas need only accept Israel and stop rockets then this will all be over, should wake up and know which side has been avoiding and preventing solutions all along. Israel OCCUPIES another land, this is an act of war anywhere in the world, Hamas or any military group, is responding in a way that would be seen as minimal anywhere else. Israeli settlements in Palestine are built and expanded for one reason, to make a Palestinian state less possible. Israel wouldn't have murdered 1300 people just now if they had settlers in Gaza, they wouldn't have strangled and imprisoned 1.5million people if settlers were there. It was anything but a gesture of "good will", it was a preparation by mass murderer Ariel Sharon for future Zionist policy.

Oh and by the way, during the recent genocide, one ship entered the coast via Greece, an American Vessel with munitions and weapons for the poor deprived Israelis who sadly were struggling to maintain a decent death toll, the heart bleeds. This is standard, has been happening for 50 years, and makes the USA complicit. To make issue of Iranian influence is so preposterously absurd that it leaves one in disbelief.