The Israeli–Palestinian conflict

[tembo]

Re: Max Blumenthal Interviews Israel Supporters At Rally In NY.

This Arab-Jew problem will also include Persians very soon.

http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/israel ... ode=7783-1

And in western Pakistan, a lot of locals are fighting Arabs.

We could be on a verge of a massive war in the Middle East stretching to Pakistan. Low oil prices will also hinder the westernization of parts of the Arab world for the next year or two, especially Dubai.

 

[ali777]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

"I'm gonna disagree with both of you on this subject... The humanity needs to learn lessons from the past and not make the same mistakes again. I'm not talking about the Palestinian context here, I'm talking in general terms.

When a certain group of people target another group of people purely based on their race, believes, colour, etc there is nothing wrong with drawing parallels with Hitler. Talking about Hitler or reducing a problem to Hitler has a very strong shame attached to it. So, any comparison with Hitler will make the aggressors think twice."

My point is, there is nothing wrong with drawing conclusions from the history.

Exactly Ali!!

And thats why I fear that once there is peace in Palestine, a certain "group" of primarily desert origin people that has historically had trouble with all who are different for 100s of years will finally be able to focus on Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Philippines, Thailand, Amsterdam, Paris, Londonistan etc..

Even worse, if the two sects of this "group" unite in Saudi Arabia and Iran (by hijacking a peaceful religion of course), we heathens and kafirs will have major issues to deal with for the rest of our lives.

We kafirs should definitely learn from history and wish a major war between Iran and Saudi Arabia that puts these tribes back 100s of years so they can continue playing amongst themselves rather than disturbing the progress of technology in kafirlands.

I find your views to be racist and misinformed... You have a total disregard for history.

I understand your constant criticism of political Islam or Islamic terrorism, and I agree 100% with you on those subjects. This subject is a very different subject, and we aren't allowed to talk about it in this forum.

However, let me explain to you... People that you call desert people (why do I get the impression you use this is a derogatory term?) are the Saudis and the other Emirates, here we are talking about the Palestinians who are descendants from the Leventine tribes. They have been living there for as long as we can go back in history. Jews, Arabs, Barbars, etc were all in the same geography and they lived side by side. Also, if you look at your map, you might notice that thanks to river Jordan that area is not exactly a dessert.

During the Roman times, the Palestinians were Christians. Later most of them converted to Islam and became Arabised. There is still a sizeable Christian minority in the Leventine region, especially in Lebanon.

I have to stop here.... Get a history book and read about it. Make sure you find a book that tells the truth and not what "they" want you to know.. For example, most of the history books in the west will tell you that the library of Alexandria was burned by both the Christians and the Muslims. However, now it is widely accepted that the Muslims never burned the library, someone in the past tried to taint the history.

Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Philippines, Thailand

You know what the common denominator is in all this? They are all territories that have been invaded by a western power not long ago. In the post-colonial times, the global power brokers never gave those people a chance to build a stable country, and the extreme fractions were fed to stop the spread of communism by you know whom.

 

[The Gardener]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

We kafirs should definitely learn from history and wish a major war between Iran and Saudi Arabia that puts these tribes back 100s of years so they can continue playing amongst themselves rather than disturbing the progress of technology in kafirlands.

That's awful.. come on.

During the Roman times, the Palestinians were Christians. Later most of them converted to Islam and became Arabised.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this "arabization" and conversion to Islam was a result of the invasion of Al Qatthab and the Rashidon Caliphate, was it not? They kicked out all the Christians, but ironically, the Rashidon Caliph invited the Jews back INTO Palestine. (In defense of the Rashidons, despite banishing the Christians, they did make and keep a promise to treat Christian holy sites with respect.)

If only today's Muslim rulers were as enlightened as the Rashidons.

Of course, the area was then reconquered by Crusaders, then came waves of Tartars, Malmuks, Ottoman Turks, etc etc.... unfortunately, most of these folks reverted to prior policies of persecuting and killing the Palestinian Jews. (the Ottomans being the exception... they allowed the Jews to resettle in Palestine, which actually was the starting "seed" that began the trend of migration now referred to as "Zionism", as after the Ottoman defeat in WW1, these lands were ceeded to the British and French mandate... and then came Sykes-Picot, which in effect drew the boundary of what became "Israel".)

Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Philippines, Thailand

You know what the common denominator is in all this? They are all territories that have been invaded by a western power not long ago. In the post-colonial times, the global power brokers never gave those people a chance to build a stable country, and the extreme fractions were fed to stop the spread of communism by you know whom.

True. These countries are all geographic creations of colonial powers, and most of them never really did have any ethnic legitimacy to them. In fact, most of those countries contained indigenous peoples who really did not have any concept of "national boundaries" as a geopolitical entity in their cultures. Not sure about Thailand, though, I'm not as up on their history.

 

[tembo]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Hey I just used "desert people" because I can't use a religious term here to describe them plus not all the desert people are of one religion anyway and not all are Arabs either.

And you asked for it with your philosophy on why history and Hitler are important.

I am definitely an 'ist, but racist aint it.

One of by best friends is Arab -- a Christian whose family was kicked out of some part of Lebanon by some other "group" of people, but whose family is now rich in America. Another of my older friends is from Kashmir whose family was kicked out by some crazy "group" of people in that part of the world. Note that I am saying "group" here and trying not to bring in religion into the discussion. You can decide what "group" means, and I will also try not to use desert people in future if that upsets you too.

Also, the Saudis (I hope this term is not racist!) seem to use oil money to support extremism in large parts of the developING world (via mosques, madrassahs, bin ladens etc..). So they are being hypocritical by saying we should respect where they live, when they try to disturb other parts of the world with their oil money. They don't even allow the building of churches and temples in Saudi Arabia, but want to colonize other part of the world with mosques. When I lived in Africa, they built a mosque near my apartment when there were already two others within 3 miles. I had three alarm clocks going off five times a day!

If the Iranians and Saudis were to ever unite under one branch, we will all have free alarm clocks in the future.

I am basing all this from what I have learnt from my personal history and I have learnt from history just like Ali said we all should.

 

[tembo]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Please...

The colonists (British) in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh were 100s of time less brutal than the Arab and Persian rulers who came before (original colonizers).

Similarly, Israel is far less brutal than the local tribes HISTORY of regional and global (via madrassahs and mosques and Shariah) brutality, even after accounting for the 1,000 deaths last week.

My interpretation of history suggests that colonists were like a loving god in comparison to the "group" that is causing havoc in all the countries I listed. Most of the current problems caused by the "group" can't be blamed on colonists.

 

[tembo]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Chechnya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Philippines, Thailand


You know what the common denominator is in all this? They are all territories that have been invaded by a western power not long ago. In the post-colonial times, the global power brokers never gave those people a chance to build a stable country, and the extreme fractions were fed to stop the spread of communism by you know whom.

Thailand was never colonized by the Europeans. Pakistan and Kashmir and Afghanistan (at least parts of it) were colonized (Buddhists and Hindus murdered or kicked out) by Arabs/Persians well before the British, and it seems like these countries are experiencing Taliban and other groups' terror once again as we speak. I much rather the British taking over Afghanistan, Pakistan and India rather than people of that other "group".

Clearly you are the one who needs to brush up on history Ali.

The British also let the locals be as they were in South Asia and didn't try to do any mass conversion to Christianity in that part of the world. The prior colonizing "group" had a different mindset, effects of which still haunt the region and could lead to the first ever nuclear war between India and Pakistan! That would be good tv huh. And you would probably again blame westerners for inventing the nuclear bomb, rather than the "group" for its HISTORY of violence and brutality in all of the world.

I don't know much about the history of Sudan, Somalia and Nigeria, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Arab invaders there were also much worse than the colonists (assuming all of those countries were colonized, as Ali suggested above).

 

[ali777]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

During the Roman times, the Palestinians were Christians. Later most of them converted to Islam and became Arabised.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this "arabization" and conversion to Islam was a result of the invasion of Al Qatthab and the Rashidon Caliphate, was it not? They kicked out all the Christians, but ironically, the Rashidon Caliph invited the Jews back INTO Palestine. (In defense of the Rashidons, despite banishing the Christians, they did make and keep a promise to treat Christian holy sites with respect.)

As far as I know, you are right. I'm not sure what your definition of kicked out is though. The Caliphate worked like a country/empire and they spread, in a way they were the colonial forces of the time. As far as I know they didn't kick out the Christians, nor the Jews. That's where the promise to respect the Christian and Jewish temples comes from.

They used the power of persuasion and influence to convert the people in the invaded territories. Like any ruling force, they set up their own system where Arabic was the main language, Islam was the main religion, etc. They also gave the Muslims better tax rates, better jobs and positions, etc. It was more of a social pressure than life threatening pressure. If you use kicked out to mean they kicked out the Christian system, or the Christian ruling class, you would be correct.

Of course, the area was then reconquered by Crusaders, then came waves of Tartars, Malmuks, Ottoman Turks, etc etc.... unfortunately, most of these folks reverted to prior policies of persecuting and killing the Palestinian Jews. (the Ottomans being the exception... they allowed the Jews to resettle in Palestine, which actually was the starting "seed" that began the trend of migration now referred to as "Zionism", as after the Ottoman defeat in WW1, these lands were ceeded to the British and French mandate... and then came Sykes-Picot, which in effect drew the boundary of what became "Israel".)

I don't think the Tartars made it there, they were in the North. The Mongols might have made it to Palestine but I don't think they stayed for too long to leave a mark.

I am not aware of Jewish persecution in the hands of the Muslims, at least not in big scale.... That's where the irony of this Palestinian conflict comes from. They were two tribes that always lived side by side.

 

[ali777]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Hey I just used "desert people" because I can't use a religious term here to describe them plus not all the desert people are of one religion anyway and not all are Arabs either.

I'm pretty sure you used it as a derogatory term.... We aren't allowed to talk about religion, but I'm sure you can say things like Muslims, Islam, Jews, etc.

One of by best friends is Arab -- a Christian whose family was kicked out of some part of Lebanon by some other "group" of people, but whose family is now rich in America. Another of my older friends is from Kashmir whose family was kicked out by some crazy "group" of people in that part of the world. Note that I am saying "group" here and trying not to bring in religion into the discussion. You can decide what "group" means, and I will also try not to use desert people in future if that upsets you too.

I used to live with a Kashmiri guy... The whole conflict in that region is a hangover from the British colonialism. If the Brits didn't create a made up state, ie Pakistan, things might have been very different. There are tones of horror stories from the time of the partition, they all suffered. The partition also meant homogenising the nation, ie if you are different, you don't belong there....

India is still mixed, but Pakistan and Bangladesh are Muslim states. I never understood the logic in that partition in the first place. India is simply too large to partition into homogeneous states. If we go with the European model where each nation is characterised with a distinct culture and language, then India would have to be 100s of small countries.

I used to work with a Muslim Lebanese, he was a war refugee as well. I remember that conflict from my childhood, it was one big mess. You can't pin it on one section only.

Also, the Saudis (I hope this term is not racist!) seem to use oil money to support extremism in large parts of the developING world (via mosques, madrassahs, bin ladens etc..). So they are being hypocritical by saying we should respect where they live, when they try to disturb other parts of the world with their oil money. They don't even allow the building of churches and temples in Saudi Arabia, but want to colonize other part of the world with mosques. When I lived in Africa, they built a mosque near my apartment when there were already two others within 3 miles. I had three alarm clocks going off five times a day!

I agree...

The colonists (British) in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh were 100s of time less brutal than the Arab and Persian rulers who came before (original colonizers).

Read my previous post... The Caliphate was a colonial empire, and just like any other empire they probably would do anything in their power to crash the opposition. I'm not sure where you get the 100s times more or less stuff.... You make it sound like the Brits were welcomed into India...

My interpretation of history suggests that colonists were like a loving god in comparison to the "group" that is causing havoc in all the countries I listed. Most of the current problems caused by the "group" can't be blamed on colonists.

That's your view.... European colonial powers weren't as innocent as you think they were.

The way we understand democracy, civilisation, modernism, etc is rather new. Most of the "civilised" countries have something dodgy in their near history. With near history I don't mean 100 years ago or whatever, I mean something in the last 30-40 years...

I don't know much about the history of Sudan, Somalia and Nigeria, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Arab invaders there were also much worse than the colonists (assuming all of those countries were colonized, as Ali suggested above).

I have one word for you: Apartheid

Clearly you are the one who needs to brush up on history Ali.

We agree on the political Islam and the extremists, but you use it as a blanket term to mean everyone and blame everyone.

 

[mulder]

UK MP Sir Gerald Kauffman's Statement on Israel

Son of Holocaust survivors explains how deeply offended he is that Israel justifies it's 'Nazi' (his words) behaviour with the blood of his murdered family. All obfuscation aside, Israel is simply a murderous rogue state that occupies and oppresses millions for half a century. It was founded by ethnic cleansing, terrorism, treachery and war. You may object to the style of what I say, but these are basically facts. At a bare minimum Israel must abandon its occupation of the Palestinian reservations- 90% of sane people outside the Israel and the US would agree.

[youtube:249wf95h]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related[/youtube:249wf95h]

 

[cruz]

Re: UK MP Sir Gerald Kauffman's Statement on Israel

An incredibly moving speech. The most sense i've heard in a long time.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[Smooth]

Re: UK MP Sir Gerald Kauffman's Statement on Israel

First : What is the point of thie thread? i can put 100s of clips of arabs talking against palastean and against the Hamas... what is your point? there there are narrow minded poeple who hates Israel? there are people that hate the Us govermant, the German gov, Uk..... if each time a new clip comes on youtube about hate we will upload it here then this forum will become a small youtuube and crash evantually
If you want to make an opinion on the Israeli/Palastin situation there are at least 4 more threads bout the subject, post there.
(want me to start openning threads against Hamas govermant?? no problem, if this thread wont be removed ill do the same)
Secondly, this whoever he is, hes an idiot, i doubt he has any idea what hes talking about, the Idf went out of Gazza and let the Hamas handle the things inside there, like a whole difftane country, even more, Israel give food, water, and ellectricity to the strip what else do you want? a free pass inside Israel?! FU! lol, wont happend.

 

[Cassin]

alright folks....too many topics on this now so they are all being merged here. Please don't make any new ones.

 

[SE-freak]

Re: UK MP Sir Gerald Kauffman's Statement on Israel

Son of Holocaust survivors explains how deeply offended he is that Israel justifies it's 'Nazi' (his words) behaviour with the blood of his murdered family. All obfuscation aside, Israel is simply a murderous rogue state that occupies and oppresses millions for half a century. It was founded by ethnic cleansing, terrorism, treachery and war. You may object to the style of what I say, but these are basically facts. At a bare minimum Israel must abandon its occupation of the Palestinian reservations- 90% of sane people outside the Israel and the US would agree.

[youtube:3gzywggq]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8&feature=related[/youtube:3gzywggq]

Thank you.

 

[HughJass]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Oh, what a hypocritical list to post... who would rant and rave against attacks on harmless victims, and then go on to post a list of attacks...

Yes, I sometimes forget how hypocritical it is disprove the claim that Israel has a pure and moral army. Why is it that whenever this issue gets raised, you seem to want to deflect it with a very grade 5 exclamation - "Well what about the other side!" ? It seems to me that you don't like hearing about Israel's misdeeds..... is that because it threatens your beliefs about this conflict?

Of course there have been terrorist attacks carried out by Palestinians- who said that there hadn't been?

Your claim of intellectually dishonesty is strawman territory. Nobody asked me which sides were responsible for all of the violence, so how could I neglect one over the other? The issue was the conduct of the Israeli army.

If you are so passionate about death, injury, and maiming of innocent civilians, then WHERE was your PASSION and RAGE when a suicide bomber walked into an Israeli cafe and detonated himself, spraying hundreds of innocents with nails and shrapnel? I bet you were really angry about that, right?

The question is, what makes you think I wouldn't be sickened at something like that?

It's quite obvious from your tone that you don't seem to think I would be. Why?

Could it be because you, like Bryan and millions of other indoctrinated people in your country who know nothing about this conflict equate criticism of Israeli policy with support for blowing Israeli's to bits? That the two are inseparable? Yes it seems American Zionists have done a great job at stereotypingall of their Western critics as weak kneed lefty racists who side with Islamic fundamentalists.

I know that your not a particularly stupid person, so I'll just have to accept that it was your ignorance on this issue that gave you the nerve to insinuate something like that about me.

Unlike Hamas, at least the Israelis don't make policy out of trying to kill innocents.

Do you honestly believe that?

Do you believe that Israel is targeting militants when it shoots at aid convoys, ambulances, hospitals, and UN facilities?

When children are killed, en masse, every war, is a completely unverified claim from an Israeli PR spokesman that there were 'militants in the area' good enough for you to justify those deaths? Bare in mind that the spokesman is speaking on behalf of a nation which was founded using terrorism.

AND, Hamas also makes a DELIBERATE policy of HIDING AMONGST ITS OWN CIVILIAN populations so as to have them serve as human shields, in effect:

Where is the evidence that this is the case 100% of the time Israel kills civilians? Show me.

And does this mean Israel have a license to bump off anybody they want now? If the Israeli army kills somebody just because they were unlucky enough to live two doors down from a Hamas fighter, is that OK?

The militants don't 'hide' amongst the civilian population. The civilians are quite happy to have them there because they consider them to be the only people willing to defend them against Israel.

You also have gotta love how Hamas "governs"... of course it all starts with indoctrination of children into hatred:

And I gather you believe that the indoctrination is limited to one side? That Israeli children aren't told that they can take what they want because they are the 'chosen people', that Israel is fighting 'evil', that the Arabs are all terrorists?

Palestine does NOT need Hamas

Who said it did?

Besides, it was YOUR president who effectively bought them to power, and now it's a dirty war being conducted by Fatah, Israel and YOUR president who is giving them a stronger mandate amongst it's people.Look closer to your own government and the lobby groups it panders to.

Or you can just keep blaming Palestinians and lefties for everything.

 

[HughJass]

Yeah, the truth hursts doesnt in Aussie?! especially when it doesnt fit with your preceptions.

The only 'truth' here is that when the going gets tough and you're sh*t out of arguments, you fall back on the holocaust to try and justify every inhumane action committed by your country. It's cowardly, not to mention the height of disrespect to people who were actually victims of the holocaust.

Lol all these are great examples how coward these terrorist organizations truly are, hiding within populated areas, behind civiliens, and when you in a war mistaks happens, theres a huge difrance between an army mistakes in war then deliberately killing of innocents, shame you cant see it...or maybe dont want to see it,

Perhaps you'd like to show us the detailed evidence you obviously have that proves militants were hiding amongst the school children and the villagers and the refugees in all of those cases?

one example for Israel killing a whole group of people that done nothing to it,
and i want a proof that its based on belifes and that this group done nothing to Israel or attend to.

Are you a special needs child or something?

When have ANY of the civilians that Israel has killed been guilty of doing anything towards Israel. By definition a civilian in a war is innocent.

I wounder how you will justify those

Why would I?

Hell yeah! and thank god they can see that there is a huge diffrance between what Hamas say and does!

I'll give you a tip here genius, you don't get to negotiate with people you like or trust otherwise you wouldn't be at war with them in the first f*cking place. Peace treaties often involve BOTH parties making concessions, if one party is ready to talk, but the other only wants to keep on fighting and threatening then any talk of peace by that side is redundant.

If that's your position, fine. Just don't be surprised when the rockets keep falling on your country and don't come looking for the world's sympathy, plenty of people are tired of the woe is me bullshit coming from people such as yourself.

*Or* you can always continue to tether yourself to the delusion that you can somehow eventually 'win' militarily without going down in history as a bunch of racist maniacs who can justify a massacre or two.

 

[HughJass]

Re: Max Blumenthal Interviews Israel Supporters At Rally In NY.

So do you mean: Once the Americans stop providing military arms to Israel, they will weaken to the point where the Arabs will wipe them off the map?

That will never happen as long as the Israeli's have nukes

The US government have the power to stop Israel from expanding it's settlements, which are the main obstacle to a solution, by withholding loans and military aid. Bush's support has been unconditional which is why there has been no progress.

Even if Israel gets full US backing forever, the Arab population inside Israel will be larger than the Jewish population in two decades time, so it probably won't be able to hold onto all of it's current territory anyway.

 

[mulder]

She meets the Press Club in the US but doesn't want to answer those pesky critical questions from reporters. The powers that be at the Press Club oblige by cutting off the mics of reporters that don't show her proper deference.
How dare American reporters disturb her PR spin using the Press Club as a platform with actual critical questions! The nerve of those unruly ink stained wretches! :twisted:

[youtube:3n32k5zg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnLyDOjfusQ[/youtube:3n32k5zg]

 

[The Gardener]

Re: DERSHOWITZ: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate'

Yes, I sometimes forget how hypocritical it is disprove the claim that Israel has a pure and moral army.

Who made THAT claim? LOL That's about the biggest straw man I have EVER seen in my life.

Why is it that whenever this issue gets raised, you seem to want to deflect it with a very grade 5 exclamation - "Well what about the other side!" ? It seems to me that you don't like hearing about Israel's misdeeds..... is that because it threatens your beliefs about this conflict?

I don't find anything "grade 5" about assessing both sides of a conflict before making moral judgements.

Your claim of intellectually dishonesty is strawman territory. Nobody asked me which sides were responsible for all of the violence, so how could I neglect one over the other? The issue was the conduct of the Israeli army.

An issue which you addressed with absolutely NO attention paid to the conduct of Hamas.

Could it be because you, like Bryan and millions of other indoctrinated people in your country who know nothing about this conflict equate criticism of Israeli policy with support for blowing Israeli's to bits? That the two are inseparable? Yes it seems American Zionists have done a great job at stereotypingall of their Western critics as weak kneed lefty racists who side with Islamic fundamentalists.

I never made any of those claims. Sounds like you are the one putting straw men in my mouth.
The only thing I said that bears any shadow of semblance to the string of absurdities in your para above is that I attributed a lot of the one-sided criticism toward Israel as being attributed in a large degree to Western liberal guilt.

Unlike Hamas, at least the Israelis don't make policy out of trying to kill innocents.

Do you honestly believe that?

Yes, I do. I generally believe that the Israelis are not wanting to deliberately kill Palestinian civilians, and I generally believe that Hamas DOES want to kill Israeli civilians.

Do you believe that Israel is targeting militants when it shoots at aid convoys, ambulances, hospitals, and UN facilities?

Sometimes mistakes are made.

When children are killed, en masse, every war, is a completely unverified claim from an Israeli PR spokesman that there were 'militants in the area' good enough for you to justify those deaths?

If what you say in the following quote is true, then yes it does justify them:

The militants don't 'hide' amongst the civilian population. The civilians are quite happy to have them there because they consider them to be the only people willing to defend them against Israel.

If that's true, then those civilians are putting themselves in harm's way.

And I gather you believe that the indoctrination is limited to one side? That Israeli children aren't told that they can take what they want because they are the 'chosen people', that Israel is fighting 'evil', that the Arabs are all terrorists?

Of course there is a certain amount of socialization that takes place in school curriculum of any nation, but to attempt to find moral comparativness between Israeli indoctrination and Hamas indoctrination is ludicrous. And I don't think I've EVER met or heard an Israeli who believes that all Arabs are terrorists.

Or you can just keep blaming Palestinians and lefties for everything.

Putting more absurdities in my mouth there, are you? I suppose the bigger the straw man you try to make me, the easier you think it will be to knock my side of the debate over?

I don't think I EVER made ANY claim that "blamed Palestinians for everything". However, I did imply that the Palestinians might have avoided quite a bit of this tragedy if they had ceased to launch rockets blindly into Israeli cities.

 

[The Gardener]

She meets the Press Club in the US but doesn't want to answer those pesky critical questions from reporters. The powers that be at the Press Club oblige by cutting off the mics of reporters that don't show her proper deference.
How dare American reporters disturb her PR spin using the Press Club as a platform with actual critical questions! The nerve of those unruly ink stained wretches! :twisted:

[youtube:28fl6irj]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnLyDOjfusQ[/youtube:28fl6irj]

At least Israel is engaging with the Press, and allows opposition journalism to survive and thrive... which is a HUGE difference from how Hamas handles "press criticism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Crac ... _the_Press

 

[SE-freak]

She meets the Press Club in the US but doesn't want to answer those pesky critical questions from reporters. The powers that be at the Press Club oblige by cutting off the mics of reporters that don't show her proper deference.
How dare American reporters disturb her PR spin using the Press Club as a platform with actual critical questions! The nerve of those unruly ink stained wretches! :twisted:

[youtube:3o7pypdr]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnLyDOjfusQ[/youtube:3o7pypdr]

At least Israel is engaging with the Press, and allows opposition journalism to survive and thrive... which is a HUGE difference from how Hamas handles "press criticism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Crac ... _the_Press

So let me see your point: since Hamas is so brutal compaired to Israeli government, it is ok if they wipe out the whole country to destroy it. Which in fact, I believe is not the primary objective of Israeli government at the moment, but it is very very suitable to dress up in humanitarian clothes the extremeties of their conquest. If I were driven away from my home, it would be war, and of course the weaker one would conveniently become the "terrorist".

Now regarding my "Palestines becoming the new Jews" comment, I found your wikipedia link very very interesting and in fact brought several occasions of holocaust abuse during past conversations that I have heard or participated in. It has an impact that veils a weak set of arguments with cheap strong impressions. That said, I believe that a nation grows through it's history, evolves through the memory of pain that it's ancestors have gone through, becomes richer in ideas and more sensitive and aware of the value of human life. That was what I was trying to say, Israel has experienced pain and persecution and it's government policy should have a human face to the world to reflect that. The pure numbers of the conflict (16vs800? not sure correct me), the fact that medics are being shot, hospitals are being bombarded, medical aid is restricted do not echo a nation that has evolved through it's painful past.

I am not sure how things are in US but in Europe there is evident general dislike of Israel's policy. I am not adding that to support my views, just merely reporting how things are on the other side of the world.