The Elephant In The Room - Weight Lifting

[LastSamurai]

I was just curious to start a thread on weight lifting and how it applies to us guys.

Now this is the place I am coming from.

Hair is desired by women.

But separately muscles are desired by women. That is a scientific fact.

My theory:

- No muscles and no hair = low attractiveness (for arguments sake)

- No muscles and hair = medium attractiveness

- Muscles and hair = high attractiveness (chad level)

- Muscles and no hair = medium attractiveness (and could be more attractive then no muscles and hair variant.


I know above is very much a rough working template, but you can see the point I'm trying to make. I'm curious as a group on here, are we working out? Are we trying improve ourselves in that respect?

Muscles are impressive, they add frame, they add aura and confidence. They are a strong symbol to a women of a provider/protector from an evolutionary perspective. And they turn women on. So scientifically speaking, having good muscles could bypass no hair. Because you have something that is providing an alternative type of attraction to women.

Everyday, I walk down the street in London, and if I was to make a very rough estimate, I would say most older guys are overweight and have zero dress sense. In terms of younger guys 20-40 lets say, the dress sense is better, but again, I would say only 10% have a good body and noticeable muscles. As popular as working out is, it is still a commodity that not everyone attains.

I'm gettng nearer to 30, and I'm looking for options. I've always been quite slim, and played sports. But I've never properly hit the weights. Looking into the next 10 years, I'm thinking, it's time. Building proper muscle is a long term asset. It really is. It's something that takes sometime to build but is absolutely worth while, and rewarding as well. Strong muscles are the only true compromise of hairloss. Dressing well is also up there.

The 10% of the most attractive guys of any age group are well dressed and well-built. I'm not saying hairloss doesn't f*** us, it does f*** us. But scientifically speaking, if we had great bodies, we're improving our general health, self-image/confidence, and indirectly or perhaps even directly, our success with women.

Fundementally I see it as something that we can be proud of. Hairloss takes our pride, and at least muscles give us something back, a sense of self worth and self-image that we lost when hairloss ravaged us.

 

[Pixie]

It's very simple:

HEIGHT FACE FRAME.

Definitely lift for health and confidence, but gymceling gets you nowhere with women. Muscles are the icing on the cake if you're already attractive (maybe an extra 5-10%), but don't help at ALL if you're unattractive. Now that's where hair factors in: if you have a good skull shape, you can kill the Statham look with a good physique, if not, you're SOL.

 

[LastSamurai]

It's very simple:

HEIGHT FACE FRAME.

Definitely lift for health and confidence, but gymceling gets you nowhere with women. Muscles are the icing on the cake if you're already attractive (maybe an extra 5-10%), but don't help at ALL if you're unattractive. Now that's where hair factors in: if you have a good skull shape, you can kill the Statham look with a good physique, if not, you're SOL.

I think you're keeping your head in the sand if you want to dismiss 'gymcelling' as 'getting you nowhere with women' when you look at the studies on muscles and attractiveness, Pixie.

Muscles are not the icing on the cake but part of the god damn cake itself. What makes an attractive face, a well chiseled jawline, low body fat, a healthy glow. These things do not all need to be achieved by weight lifting. But a healthy diet and weight lifting would propel you to those kind of goals in a determined manner, compared to not bothering to do so, which wouldn't direct you to those results.

What I'm saying is there is a huge amount in our control. That's undeniable. We have the free will to make ourselves into a better form of our current selves. It's just a question of applying ourselves.

Also, you divide men into attractive and unattractive camps, as if there are only two ways to define a man. Have you considered that actually it's much more nuanced then that? You are not simply one or the other. You have to work to remain attractive. You have to make money, get muscles, and look as good as you can. Or you give up and slide to the more unattractive side of life. Your choice.

 

[tomcat]

hi i have been training for 3 years and i have done a lot of programm but there is one man that i trust most hes work out plan are beast but u can achieve it with hard work and the best part is he train with u too and u have video of everything u need for workout this is hes new programm he just finished it im in week 6 and already gained 2 kg and my shape changed too https://www.kagedmuscle.com/blogs/muscle-building-trainer/mbt-overviews-program oh and its free

 

[Pixie]

Just for context: I'm a very active, health oriented individual. I take great pride in my training and have a lot of fun with it! I would go as far as to say that it's the center of my life! I think EVERYBODY could benefit from physical activity in one way or another.

My original reply comes from my own experience, as well as observing others, women tend to care MUCH more about a pretty face and height than the physique of a man. Of course, being overweight enough to hide your jaw and give you a hanging gut will knock off points for sure, but again, the muscles are just icing for them.

As for me dividing men into attractive/unattractive camps, you're right, but that's pretty much what the data shows in how women perceive attractiveness strictly on a physical level. You're right that it's more nuanced than that in person. Good confidence, status, money, and whatever else could make you exponentially more attractive to a girl.

http://i.imgur.com/2MstAzl.gif

 

[ZidaneBaldGod]

Sometimes the muscles+bald looks better
than the muscles+fullhead look.

Short hair is masculine.
Long hair is feminine.

Which is why most women are terrified of buzzing their hair and stick to long hair for all their lives.
So a bald cut is literally the most masculine thing a man can do.
Muscles are also masculine.

Muscles+hair = Hawt
Muscles+no hair = Savage Killing Machine

It's two different types of attraction. Women who like manly man will absolutely go bonkers for the latter.

So it depends on the woman. Some women like masculine features more than feminine features in a man.

Of course, bald with horseshoe is crap. I'm talking about bald with a frame.

 

[givemeregrowth]

This is one of the few places on the internet where you can find people preaching against lifting , because this site is full of desperate loosers which live in their mothers basement and jerk off to tranny p**rn all day.

 

[Pelopeleon]

You should lift, with hairloss or without.

But, on the other hand, If you are ugly as f*ck this wont save you If you dont fix your face first.

https://i.imgur.com/TL44icK.jpg
http://www11.pic-upload.de/23.08.15/zqor1dyxqa2r.jpg

Now imagine these guys completely bald.

 

[tomcat]

You should lift, with hairloss or without.

But, on the other hand, If you are ugly as f*ck this wont save you If you dont fix your face first.

https://i.imgur.com/TL44icK.jpg
http://www11.pic-upload.de/23.08.15/zqor1dyxqa2r.jpg

Now imagine these guys completely bald.

yeah u r right but guys remember we should be best version of ourself no matter if u r 4 or 5 or 6 or even 2

 

[swingline747]

the VAST majority of women prefer slimmer, more cut guys than large muscles. Lifting will be for you only, it will not get you more women. And even if it did it would get you that one woman who likes that type of guy and youd more than likely have to be a massive, juiced up monster to impress her.

Keep yourself lean and cut, not big. Your joints will also thank you in a few years, take it from me. On a side note, being in TO good of shape will hurt you with women. In my 20s I was in GREAT shape, sort of between big and cut, and really good looking. Most girls were very keen to flirt or fool around, but very hesitant to get undressed in front of me. It didnt mean I didnt get laid a lot but it was still a PITA because if you are in to good of shape then most girls will then not have to confidence to be naked around you or think you are just going to hit it and run so they wont waste their time. Youll have decent drunk luck more than anything. Though it did get me a lot of female friends as well which is always nice

 

[Trichosan]

You should lift, with hairloss or without.

But, on the other hand, If you are ugly as f*ck this wont save you If you dont fix your face first.

https://i.imgur.com/TL44icK.jpg
http://www11.pic-upload.de/23.08.15/zqor1dyxqa2r.jpg

Now imagine these guys completely bald.

No amount of superior fitness saves those two from the points subtracted by their "goofus" looks. The contrast, in fact, would probably have girls cracking up at first glance.

 

[Panda89]

i think the idea is to do things you love and look after yourself. stop thinking about what women want. I believe general happiness can be achieved, with or without great success with girls, if you have a healthy life style, do things that are interesting to you, and put yourself out there to socialize with people and make friends.

i have to remind myself this too, but obsessing over how you look 15 times a day on the internet can't be good for your mentality man

 

[doubleindemnity]

Lifting doesn't make a bit of difference to attractiveness, in my opinion. That's all about your Norwood level and your height. By all means lift for the fun and for any health benefits, ergogenic effects etc. but do not expect to see any improvement when you're in shape. This is based on my experiences and I'll tell you what I have experienced. Most men tell me what good shape I am in. They say that it is clear even in loose fitting clothes and very obvious in well fitting clothes. Many women pretend not to notice. That's because - I expect - I'm a NW6 and they do not want to say anything to a NW6 that might make him think that they are interested. The women that do notice don't really make a big deal of it at all. Maybe around 10% of women that I had on a date really seemed to like or notice it. My muscles are visible in my dating photos (with t shirt) but the muscle photo has been one of the less successful ones. The most successful ones were the ones that hid my hair loss the best.

Look at the guys doing well and considered attractive. They have height, NW1 or NW2 and the right beard and haircut. They're typically not going to be in shape. At least, they won't be muscular to an extent that is visible with clothing. Ryan Gosling is a good example. Make no mistake; after a woman is done rejecting you, she is taking things further with a guy who may have less money, worse career prospects, less muscle, less general health, less perceived intelligence, and maybe even the same height...but more hair on his head.

Nowadays, I lift as a coping mechanism (the hormones are a temporary relief from depression), for the health benefits and just to waste time in general.

Hair loss does not take your pride and building muscle does not rebuild that pride. You can have pride by doing well in any areas of life e.g. sport, career, studies. This can regain any pride that is lost by hair loss. But don't expect for a moment that regaining your pride will give you any extra options with women. They simply do not care. You are typically judged by your Norwood level and height. This is before your pride can even be part of the equation.

I'll illustrate with an example. Imagine two guys who start out identical in every way except that one guy is a NW1 and the other a NW6. The NW6 might spend 12 hours per week lifting to get in top shape and, because he's hardworking, will look great (to men). The NW1 can get 100 times the attractiveness boost that the NW6 got from his lifting by simply visiting a good barbershop every 4 weeks. If the NW1 can afford to visit the barbershop every 2 weeks then it's an even worse proposition for the NW6.

 

[swingline747]

Lifting doesn't make a bit of difference to attractiveness, in my opinion. That's all about your Norwood level and your height. By all means lift for the fun and for any health benefits, ergogenic effects etc. but do not expect to see any improvement when you're in shape. This is based on my experiences and I'll tell you what I have experienced. Most men tell me what good shape I am in. They say that it is clear even in loose fitting clothes and very obvious in well fitting clothes. Many women pretend not to notice. That's because - I expect - I'm a NW6 and they do not want to say anything to a NW6 that might make him think that they are interested. The women that do notice don't really make a big deal of it at all. Maybe around 10% of women that I had on a date really seemed to like or notice it. My muscles are visible in my dating photos (with t shirt) but the muscle photo has been one of the less successful ones. The most successful ones were the ones that hid my hair loss the best.

Look at the guys doing well and considered attractive. They have height, NW1 or NW2 and the right beard and haircut. They're typically not going to be in shape. At least, they won't be muscular to an extent that is visible with clothing. Ryan Gosling is a good example. Make no mistake; after a woman is done rejecting you, she is taking things further with a guy who may have less money, worse career prospects, less muscle, less general health, less perceived intelligence, and maybe even the same height...but more hair on his head.

Nowadays, I lift as a coping mechanism (the hormones are a temporary relief from depression), for the health benefits and just to waste time in general.

Hair loss does not take your pride and building muscle does not rebuild that pride. You can have pride by doing well in any areas of life e.g. sport, career, studies. This can regain any pride that is lost by hair loss. But don't expect for a moment that regaining your pride will give you any extra options with women. They simply do not care. You are typically judged by your Norwood level and height. This is before your pride can even be part of the equation.

I'll illustrate with an example. Imagine two guys who start out identical in every way except that one guy is a NW1 and the other a NW6. The NW6 might spend 12 hours per week lifting to get in top shape and, because he's hardworking, will look great (to men). The NW1 can get 100 times the attractiveness boost that the NW6 got from his lifting by simply visiting a good barbershop every 4 weeks. If the NW1 can afford to visit the barbershop every 2 weeks then it's an even worse proposition for the NW6.

I used to present a similar question to people, Identical twins but one suffers the hogan U and is "slightly" funnier.... which do you choose ladies?

 

[LastSamurai]

the VAST majority of women prefer slimmer, more cut guys than large muscles. Lifting will be for you only, it will not get you more women. And even if it did it would get you that one woman who likes that type of guy and youd more than likely have to be a massive, juiced up monster to impress her.

Keep yourself lean and cut, not big. Your joints will also thank you in a few years, take it from me. On a side note, being in TO good of shape will hurt you with women. In my 20s I was in GREAT shape, sort of between big and cut, and really good looking. Most girls were very keen to flirt or fool around, but very hesitant to get undressed in front of me. It didnt mean I didnt get laid a lot but it was still a PITA because if you are in to good of shape then most girls will then not have to confidence to be naked around you or think you are just going to hit it and run so they wont waste their time. Youll have decent drunk luck more than anything. Though it did get me a lot of female friends as well which is always nice

I don't disagree. But you need a workout strategy do get slim and cut, that doesn't happen by accident. I'm not talking Hogan Steriod-monkey big, I'm just taking good biceps and some chest definition that you can see through a t-shirt. There is a spectrum of what 'fit' means from a more wirey, cut, climber type physique to a stronger, more gym-based physique.

I say weight lifting because weight lifting is purposeful in its intent to increase muscle size and strength, compared to say, climbing or cycling. You can get slim eating vegetables and tofu but you won't build any muscle if you have no muscle in the first place. So you need to have some kind of workout - weight lifting, rowing, perhaps even boxing, climbing etc - that actually works and increases your upper body size. Hell, I guess even yoga, if practiced intensely enough could be beneficial.

So yes, there is a spectrum. I guess big biceps/arms are probably the most obvious answer. Being slim alone isn't an obvious win, its just not an obvious loss, like having a beer belly or having very skinny arms. The women isn't going to know you are in great shape unless it's at least somewhat obvious, which tends to come from jaw/neck and arms definition.

 

[LastSamurai]

Just for context: I'm a very active, health oriented individual. I take great pride in my training and have a lot of fun with it! I would go as far as to say that it's the center of my life! I think EVERYBODY could benefit from physical activity in one way or another.

My original reply comes from my own experience, as well as observing others, women tend to care MUCH more about a pretty face and height than the physique of a man. Of course, being overweight enough to hide your jaw and give you a hanging gut will knock off points for sure, but again, the muscles are just icing for them.

As for me dividing men into attractive/unattractive camps, you're right, but that's pretty much what the data shows in how women perceive attractiveness strictly on a physical level. You're right that it's more nuanced than that in person. Good confidence, status, money, and whatever else could make you exponentially more attractive to a girl.

http://i.imgur.com/2MstAzl.gif

Interesting graphic. Do you have the link to the study? That more or less proves female hypergamy. Online dating is a no go for any wise man. I can pull much more attractive girls in real life. Or at least, I can attract a 7 in real life relatively easily, where as a 7 online is a rare occurrence.

I guess I was traumatized after seeing an ex girlfriend's reaction (whilst we were dating) to a muscular guy. It made me feel inadequate. The argument is, well, she wasn't the right girl, etc and yeah there is that. But other girls may just have covered up what they found biologically attractive. It's not essential to have muscles, but if you are going for an LTR and you want to have an attractive women by your side and keep her, then you better get headed down to the gym because the day that comes when you're out with your LTR and you bump into Chad and see your girlfriend almost drooling over him, that's the day you have to prepare for.

I've been there. I'm exaggerating slightly for the effect of the story, but I've been there.

 

[swingline747]

I don't disagree. But you need a workout strategy do get slim and cut, that doesn't happen by accident. I'm not talking Hogan Steriod-monkey big, I'm just taking good biceps and some chest definition that you can see through a t-shirt. There is a spectrum of what 'fit' means from a more wirey, cut, climber type physique to a stronger, more gym-based physique.

I say weight lifting because weight lifting is purposeful in its intent to increase muscle size and strength, compared to say, climbing or cycling. You can get slim eating vegetables and tofu but you won't build any muscle if you have no muscle in the first place. So you need to have some kind of workout - weight lifting, rowing, perhaps even boxing, climbing etc - that actually works and increases your upper body size. Hell, I guess even yoga, if practiced intensely enough could be beneficial.

So yes, there is a spectrum. I guess big biceps/arms are probably the most obvious answer. Being slim alone isn't an obvious win, its just not an obvious loss, like having a beer belly or having very skinny arms. The women isn't going to know you are in great shape unless it's at least somewhat obvious, which tends to come from jaw/neck and arms definition.

Im agreeing with you, Im just saying to guys dont weight life and try to gain mass, it wont accomplish anything. You can weight lift lightly with reps and youll gain more definition and be cut.

 

[JohnsonDDG]

I've asked a ton of women about this over the years and while they do vary a little bit the majority say they like lean men with a bit of muscle.

Examples:

Note: this body is still hard to achieve.

On studies I've read, men apparently think women like bigger bodies like this:

But its just not true and most women will say that he is 'too much' (although he still wouldn't struggle to find a woman!).

The important thing is to relax because the first two bodies I've posted can be achieved by having low body fat and about two years worth of lifting.

On one of you other points:

Yes, it is easier to stand out in your 30s by having a good body. Most men have gone to crap by their mid 30s. Studies in my country show that 60% of men over 30 are fat! So just by being slim and toned puts you in the top 40% of men automatically.

 

[Panda89]

I'll illustrate with an example. Imagine two guys who start out identical in every way except that one guy is a NW1 and the other a NW6. The NW6 might spend 12 hours per week lifting to get in top shape and, because he's hardworking, will look great (to men). The NW1 can get 100 times the attractiveness boost that the NW6 got from his lifting by simply visiting a good barbershop every 4 weeks. If the NW1 can afford to visit the barbershop every 2 weeks then it's an even worse proposition for the NW6.

i like how so many people like to give “examples” by drawing up a hypothetical situation and can actually give you numerical data (100 times more attractive) as a definitive result for all realities. And bam! Here you have it, here is your proof for the point I was making! It's all scientific!

jokes aside, It’s such an old old debate on this forum .. hair is life and we are all doomed vs find confidence elsewhere in spite of hair loss
I guess we all cope with it differently

 

[Saurabhaj]

Whenever I see a nw6 guy from back with a horse shoe style,I feel uncomfortable.