So, wait, exactly HOW does DHT damage the follicle?

[Hoppi]

Does it cut off the nutrients? O.O

Some sources online say that DHT cuts off the follicles "food supply" in effect, by starving it of nutrients. Apparently they also need oxygen, blood and lymph. Does the DHT cut these off too perhaps? I mean, this may not be the ONLY way, but I am fascinated to learn exactly HOW dht kills a follicle.

Does the follicle merely "react" to it, and it just triggers (in essence, "tells") the follicle to die? If so, how?

Another theory was about an increase in sebum, causing the body to attack the bacteria building up in the follicle's sebaceous gland, thereby killing the follicle. I do believe though that this theory was at least partly proven incorrect... but it may have strands (no pun intended =D ) of truth.

So.. what IS the truth?



(And I am sorry for starting so many threads, I will try not to make so many in future My head is just buzzing with ideas and theories and new discoveries and sometimes posting a thread on here is the quickest way to get some info and have a chat about something! I will try to keep threads in future to a more controlled number!)

 

[raj47]

i am also lurking for that clue .how exactly dht kills the follicles ?

 

[Hoppi]

i am also lurking for that clue .how exactly dht kills the follicles ?

I'm starting to believe it starves them...

 

[armandein]

i am also lurking for that clue .how exactly dht kills the follicles ?

I'm starting to believe it starves them...

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=55958

 

[Hoppi]

i am also lurking for that clue .how exactly dht kills the follicles ?

I'm starting to believe it starves them...

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=55958

what's your point?

Are you saying that follicles can survive that long without blood and nutrients and still produce hair?

That's a valid comment and observation, but it may have been just that isolated case.

I am looking forward to the outcome of this thread

 

[mpbsux20]

Follicles which are genetically susceptible to DHT shrink when exposed to DHT.The degree of baldness depends on factors like DHT content in the body and area of the scalp that is sensitive to it.

 

[hairrific]

Science don't know. So here is my guess. The constant bombardment of DHT at a certain point can cause inflammation by constantly overstimulating the androgen receptors. This causes immune response inflammation if you are genetically sensitive, which causes itching, redness, scaring and shrinking of the follicles, causing miniaturization and eventually hair loss.

 

[Hoppi]

That's all interesting

mpbsux you seem to favour the approach that the DHT triggers the follicle to shrink somehow. This is one possible theory (but needs serious citation to prove it, as many people favour other theories!). If that is the case, then it seems the only current solution is to get rid of that DHT (there may be other solutions, but not here and now as far as I'm aware).

Inflammation.. I haven't actually heard that one before! Nizoral does reduce inflammation topically apparently, and if it IS true then a systemic anti-inflammatory might also be a good idea.

However, one for the nutrient/blood starving argument... how come Minoxidil saves hair by widening capillaries and opening potassium channels? This floods the follicle with blood, oxygen and nutrients (and probably lymph) encouraging it to grow. So... doesn't this IMPLY nutrients and blood supply are involved?

Correct me if I'm wrong

The fact that accutane (if anyone is reading don't take that drug it's deadly!) and probably coenzyme A seem to help people supports the sebum theory to some extent.

Squeegee's citation of this:

"Sulfur

Sulfur is probably the oldest acne remedy known to medicine and its origins as an anti-acne treatment date to ancient Greek, Roman, and Chinese texts citing its efficacy in balneotherapy. Sulfur formulations are effective both as a micro-exfoliant and as a mild antiseptic. Sulfur is hydrophile and can easily penetrate sebaceous pores where its antiseptic properties can assist local immune response in rapidly eliminating infection resulting from acne proliferation. Because the growth of acne bacteria is limited naturally by the skin's slightly acidic pH, alkaline cleansers (including soaps and detergents) can have a detrimental effect on controlling acne proliferation. Sulphur-based cleansers with a balancing or neutral pH can help eliminate acne and prevent future breakouts by maintaining the hydrolipidic layer's acidity and thereby controlling acne populations on the surface of the skin. Sulfur is abundant in keratin and its use is also helpful in promoting collagen synthesis. An active ingredient in prescription and over-the-counter lotions, creams, gels, washes, and shampoos, sulfur is also very effective in controlling seborrheic dermatitis, rosacea, eczema, psoriasis, tinea versicolor, scabies, and lice.

Sulphur soap shampoo could be a good idea too : http://sal3.com/

Salicylic Acid and Sulfur soap provides keratolytic, antifungal, and antiseptic action. Salicylic Acid alone is mildly anti-pruritic, bacteriastatic and keratolytic. This effect is due to the lowering of pH at the surface of the skin, improving the hydration of the keratin layer. Salicylic Acid and Sulfur in combination are synergistic, and support normal keratin formation."

in viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57656 also implies sebum could be something to do with it.


I mean in actuality the problem could very well be ALL of these!! lol

I wonder if anyone actually knows for certain.......

 

[dougfunny]

I don't think the exact mechanism is known. If you really wanted to get into it your would probably need a PhD in biochemistry!

 

[baller234]

I believe the current concensus is that when androgens (DHT being the most potent) bind to androgen receptors in hair follicles, they release negative growth factors and eventually cause the cell do undergo apoptosis. The reason why this happens is not known.

 

[Hoppi]

I believe the current concensus is that when androgens (DHT being the most potent) bind to androgen receptors in hair follicles, they release negative growth factors and eventually cause the cell do undergo apoptosis. The reason why this happens is not known.

Wow. And yes I'm aware its not fully known, or at least I had roughly gathered that we don't understand all of the mechanism yet! We do seem close though!

I mean, Minoxidil does suggest there is some degree of "choking" of the follicle of blood/nutrients there, and the improvement people seem to experience from accutane and maybe CoA does suggest sebum plays SOME kind of role too. Inflammation is also possible but I suppose that treatments for these are still probably more treating the symptoms than treating the problem (not that that's always a waste of time)

In summary, maybe you're right there Baller! Definitely the best one so far

 

[dougfunny]

I mean, Minoxidil does suggest there is some degree of "choking" of the follicle of blood/nutrients there, and the improvement people seem to experience from accutane and maybe CoA does suggest sebum plays SOME kind of role too. Inflammation is also possible but I suppose that treatments for these are still probably more treating the symptoms than treating the problem (not that that's always a waste of time)

I disagree. All that you are doing is giving a blood transfusion to a dying patient.

Increasing blood/nutrients will probably help any hair follicle, regardless of whether or not it is programmed to die. This does not shine any light on the cause of the problem.

 

[Hoppi]

I mean, Minoxidil does suggest there is some degree of "choking" of the follicle of blood/nutrients there, and the improvement people seem to experience from accutane and maybe CoA does suggest sebum plays SOME kind of role too. Inflammation is also possible but I suppose that treatments for these are still probably more treating the symptoms than treating the problem (not that that's always a waste of time)

I disagree. All that you are doing is giving a blood transfusion to a dying patient.

Increasing blood/nutrients will probably help any hair follicle, regardless of whether or not it is programmed to die. This does not shine any light on the cause of the problem.

I wasn't talking about nutrients... I was talking about sebum reducers, vasodilators/potassium channel openers and anti-inflammatories.

Yes you're right in a way, but you only reworded what I said and put a more negative spin on it, didn't you?

My point was treating the symptoms may help the follicle to keep standing more despite the DHT (which is PRECISELY what Minoxidil seems to do, for example), but the real solution probably has to be removing the DHT.

 

[mpbsux20]

Hoppi,its quite a complex process but DHT sensitivity is the main culprit.I also believe sebum plays a part in aggravating the condition.Nutrients can help only to a certain extent i.e. making exisitng hair look healthy and aiding in their growth rate.

When I first started taking Biotin and other vitamin supplements,I noticed that my hair looked cosmetically thicker and healthier.Even my skin looked terrific and I thought that this is it but soon all these effects were nullified as my body was no longer in need of them.I think it would be a wise choice to not rely too much on vitamins and supplements....If your body is not in need of them,they will just be flushed out of the system.

 

[Bryan]

I believe the current concensus is that when androgens (DHT being the most potent) bind to androgen receptors in hair follicles, they release negative growth factors...

Exactly. This has been discussed so many times on hairloss forums, I don't know why it keeps being brought up again!

There are entire articles and studies that have been written in medical journals that discuss this. One of those nasty things that androgens induce scalp hair follicles to release is TGF-beta (both 1 and 2), which are very harmful for hair follicles. They're currently attempting to identify all the various substances whose synthesis is affected by androgens.

A separate question being investigated is what accounts for the difference in the way that hair follicles react to androgens, based on their location (scalp hair versus body hair). Androgens cause body hair follicles to react in an opposite way, of course, by releasing chemicals that actually stimulate their growth. Someday they'll understand the genetic reasons that account for those differences.

 

[armandein]

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=55958[/quote]

what's your point?

Are you saying that follicles can survive that long without blood and nutrients and still produce hair?

That's a valid comment and observation, but it may have been just that isolated case.

I am looking forward to the outcome of this thread [/quote]

I think that hairs not only need blood nutrients to be healthy and growth. There is a sebum flow to the inner part of hair and then also it is incorporated to it.
Armando

 

[Hoppi]

I believe the current concensus is that when androgens (DHT being the most potent) bind to androgen receptors in hair follicles, they release negative growth factors...

Exactly. This has been discussed so many times on hairloss forums, I don't know why it keeps being brought up again!

There are entire articles and studies that have been written in medical journals that discuss this. One of those nasty things that androgens induce scalp hair follicles to release is TGF-beta (both 1 and 2), which are very harmful for hair follicles. They're currently attempting to identify all the various substances whose synthesis is affected by androgens.

A separate question being investigated is what accounts for the difference in the way that hair follicles react to androgens, based on their location (scalp hair versus body hair). Androgens cause body hair follicles to react in an opposite way, of course, by releasing chemicals that actually stimulate their growth. Someday they'll understand the genetic reasons that account for those differences.

Thanks, I think that basically clears it up, or at least to the extent medical science is currently capable!

And sorry if it's all been discussed before, I did consider searching the forum but I wasn't sure how different people would choose to phrase it, or how much it had been discussed in the past.

Well, I know now anyway, and who knows maybe this has also taught some other newer members how it works

I guess that reason is why, for now, the best solution is just to remove that DHT (or prevent it from binding in the first place) and to stimulate the follicles!

I am feeling very knowledgeable about all this at the moment ^_^

 

[LewdBear]

There are studies of balding DPC and their associated changes.


Inhibitory autocrine factors produced by the mesenchyme-derived hair follicle dermal papilla may be a key to male pattern baldness :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4

"CONCLUSIONS: Human balding dermal papilla cells secrete inhibitory factors which affect the growth of both human and rodent dermal papilla cells and factors which delay the onset of anagen in mice in vivo."

Premature senescence of balding dermal papilla cells in vitro is associated with p16(INK4a) expression :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

"Premature senescence of balding DPC in vitro in association with expression of p16(INK4a)/pRB suggests that balding DPC are sensitive to environmental stress and identifies alternative pathways that could lead to novel therapeutic strategies for treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia."

Androgen-inducible TGF-beta1 from balding dermal papilla cells inhibits epithelial cell growth: a clue to understand paradoxical effects of androgen on human hair growth :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=8

"These findings suggest that androgen-inducible TGF-beta1 derived from DPCs of Androgenetic Alopecia is involved in epithelial cell growth suppression in our coculture system, providing the clue to understand the paradoxical effects of androgens for human hair growth."


None of this has anything to do with "nutrients" being cut off, beyond the fact that the cells are becoming apoptotic.

DHT, and perhaps other androgens, signal the DPC to secrete inhibitory growth factors which causes them to lose proliferative capacity. Eventually they become apoptotic and die with fewer cells taking their place. It's essentially suicide.

 

[blink]

well crap... if tnf/Rb-ink4a/any of the other pro-apoptotic pathways are major players in hair loss, we are screwed. no sane physician would ever try to downregulate/stop those important molecules.

research is gonna have to pull something out of their backside

 

[moxsom]

well crap... if tnf/Rb-ink4a/any of the other pro-apoptotic pathways are major players in hair loss, we are screwed. no sane physician would ever try to downregulate/stop those important molecules.

research is gonna have to pull something out of their backside

Your going to be waiting a long while. Prevention is probably the most viable option for now.

I imagine the science behind transplants will only get better and better.