So, wait, exactly HOW does DHT damage the follicle?

OverMachoGrande

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When estradiol or DHT binds to the androgen receptor (SHBG) it directs the attention of IGF-1. IGF-1 then stimulates the growth of the sebaceous gland, which then enlarges, releasing excess sebum which clogs the follicle. A bacterium eats the excess sebum, causing an autoimmune response called inflammation. It is the inflammation that causes the falling of the hair, and the clogged sebum that prevents its regrowth.

Ketoconazole shampoo is shown to displace both estradiol and DHT from SHBG and is also shown to shrink the sebaceous glands by 20%. Also removes the bacteria and inflammation.
 

Hoppi

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You put together an interesting one misterE, because even though INCREDIBLY controversial ( :) ), it does tie in all these ideas of high DHT/testosterone, estrogen, inflammation, sebum etc etc. Whatever theory is true, it does seem that ALL these things play a role in the big picture. Those who claim with great confidence that sebum or inflammation or whatever makes little difference are often proven wrong when an anti-sebum or anti-inflammatory treatment seems to ease male pattern baldness (hence my enthusiastic inclusion of them in my regimen!).
 

moxsom

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misterE said:
When estradiol or DHT binds to the androgen receptor (SHBG) it directs the attention of IGF-1. IGF-1 then stimulates the growth of the sebaceous gland, which then enlarges, releasing excess sebum which clogs the follicle. A bacterium eats the excess sebum, causing an autoimmune response called inflammation. It is the inflammation that causes the falling of the hair, and the clogged sebum that prevents its regrowth.

This is not how DHT effects the follicle. nice try though. More like this.

nrc1001034af1.gif
 

moxsom

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misterE said:
SHBG is the androgen/estrogen receptor.

Let me ask you something Moxsom...Why does SHBG have a receptor?


SHBG is AN androgen receptor, it is not THE androgen receptor.

SHBG has a receptor mostly to regulate and transport sex hormones. Period.
 

OverMachoGrande

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Dang, I've been noticing all these pros lately, who just know the metabolic clearance like the back of their hand, so moxsom, what causes hair loss exactly then?
 

Hoppi

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lol oh no this could be interesting! xD

Just... no fighting! Just constructive debate! :)
 

moxsom

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Lord_Justin13 said:
Dang, I've been noticing all these pros lately, who just know the metabolic clearance like the back of their hand, so moxsom, what causes hair loss exactly then?

It would takes pages of text to explain every single biological pathway responsible for male pattern baldness and most of these processes are not fully understood. I'll try to break it down easy for you.

Androgens like DHT can enter the cell. The cell in question here are the dermal papilla cells on your scalp, at the base of the hair follicles. Once bound to the androgen receptor, the androgen receptor will bind to a promoter site in the nucleus on the DNA of that cell. The DNA will then transcribe mRNA that will move to the cytoplasm of the cell and be translated to Polypeptides.

The polypeptides will be proteins like growth factors that will have negative effects of the dermal papilla or not allow the dermal papilla to transcribe proteins that are necessary for proper hair cycling. The dermal papilla will not return to it's original state once damaged and become smaller and the anagen phase shortens. This will give the appearance of a shorter, thinner hair, and the accumulation of the damage may not allow for the DP to produce hairs at all eventually.

Hope that helps.
 

OverMachoGrande

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moxsom said:
Lord_Justin13 wrote:
Dang, I've been noticing all these pros lately, who just know the metabolic clearance like the back of their hand, so moxsom, what causes hair loss exactly then?


It would takes pages of text to explain every single biological pathway responsible for male pattern baldness and most of these processes are not fully understood. I'll try to break it down easy for you.

Androgens like DHT can enter the cell. The cell in question here are the dermal papilla cells on your scalp, at the base of the hair follicles. Once bound to the androgen receptor, the androgen receptor will bind to a promoter site in the nucleus on the DNA of that cell. The DNA will then transcribe mRNA that will move to the cytoplasm of the cell and be translated to Polypeptides.

The polypeptides will be proteins like growth factors that will have negative effects of the dermal papilla or not allow the dermal papilla to transcribe proteins that are necessary for proper hair cycling. The dermal papilla will not return to it's original state once damaged and become smaller and the anagen phase shortens. This will give the appearance of a shorter, thinner hair, and the accumulation of the damage may not allow for the DP to produce hairs at all eventually.

Hope that helps.

This is all very interesting, I always appreciate to hear different points of view, to try and understand male pattern baldness as much as possible.

First it's important to understand why the DHT was created in the first place, if any kind of events in the persons life has a relevance the increase of DHT, whether that be from food, lifestyle choices, what have you etc...

So in regards to the idea you've driven up, it seems not only are there multiple pathways lead to hair loss/male pattern baldness, but a few keys things we could focus on, that prevent male pattern baldness, one being to stop the formation of DHT, either through inhibiting the 5-alpha reductase, or through finding a way to down regulate the conversion of T to DHT, (whether that be by redirecting the T, or lowering it, ((yet I don't know if that's healthy for men)).

Then we see, if DHT enters the cell, perhaps strengthen the cell, or finding a way of the cell evading DHT from entering it, etc...Anything to prevent the passing through, (as long as it's safe), and maybe find a way to target the resistance of the dermal papilla as well, (if that's possible).

We see that this androgen receptor containing DHT, binds to the nucleus of cell, where it is ultimately translated into polypeptides, perhaps other hormones would then provide a different transcription for RNA, unless the transcription is solely in charge by the DNA, and not affected by the androgen receptor bound DHT, thus, a different hormone or structure could be translated into some other form of poly, or something else.

However, there must be a way of reversing this damage done to the dermal papilla, and what of inducing other structures, that promote the dermal papilla to transcribe proteins that are necessary for proper hair cycling?
 

moxsom

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DHT is necessary for the proper development of Humans, especially males. It's role in skin post puburtal is unknown.

What you just mentioned are most of the ways that we currently have to fight hairloss.

5ar inhibitors to stop the transformation of T into DHT and anti-androgens like Spironolactone and RU58841 to bind to the androgen receptor so androgen cannot. Also minoxidil promotes the production of some positive growth factors for good hair growth (VEGF).

Unfortunately it seems the damage is not reversible. No enzymes or hormones bind to the dermal papilla in your scalp and effect the DNA positively. Even the methods of growth now are never permanent (ie growth from finasteride, minoxidil or even cyclosporin).

The future of fighting hairloss will be from 1. prevention and 2. The cloning of dermal papilla (or entire hairs) not sensitive to androgens that can be transplanted onto your scalp.
 

armandein

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misterE said:
When estradiol or DHT binds to the androgen receptor (SHBG) it directs the attention of IGF-1. IGF-1 then stimulates the growth of the sebaceous gland, which then enlarges, releasing excess sebum which clogs the follicle. A bacterium eats the excess sebum, causing an autoimmune response called inflammation. It is the inflammation that causes the falling of the hair, and the clogged sebum that prevents its regrowth.

Ketoconazole shampoo is shown to displace both estradiol and DHT from SHBG and is also shown to shrink the sebaceous glands by 20%. Also removes the bacteria and inflammation.

Hi Mister E;

But, how you explain the pettern in common hair loss. IFG-1 enlarging sebaceous gland, affects all hairs or not?

Armando
 

moxsom

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FredTheBelgian said:
You forget that there are some people who have DPA like me and are thinning and losing hair equally all over the top in the Norwood area. I know that 95% of hairloss sufferers have classic male pattern baldness: is there an explanation about why it happens in that pattern?

It's in correlation with the sensitivity of the androgen receptors to the androgens. If you have DPA a lot of the hairs on your head are sensitive to androgens more like an hourglass shape pattern. If you have the classic M shape balding, those areas of your scalp are senstive to androgens.

There must be some evolutionary reason for the pattern, but it's impossible to dig up the past on this one and may be homologous to our primate ancestors.
 

armandein

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Our scalp hairs are more complex than other animal in world. It is called asynchrony.
On the other hand, if the special pattern is caused by genetical issue (different sensibility) would exist an evolution reason and "be wrote" in genoma. By the moment there is not differences in phenotype in healthy scalp hairs.

Armando
 
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