Scalp Testosterone

[AussieExperiment]

Have you guys read this http://www.regrowth.com/hairloss-remedy ... esults.cfm

Scalp Testosterone rose 24% for Finasteride, 46% for 0.05mg Dutasteride, 44% for 0.1mg Dutasteride, 104% for 0.5mg Dutasteride, and 154% for 2.5mg Dutasteride.

Scalp Testosterone rose 154% on dutasteride compared to only 24% on finasteride. I didn't realize it was so high. Perhaps that is why some people (the minority) get negative results. If your hair is sensitive to Testosterone you are screwed.

 

[abcdefg]

Yeah thats pretty crappy. I think if your hair is sensitive to DHT then it is to some extent sensitive to testosterone. I think something lowering testerone and DHT would give better results then something lowering only DHT. Thats why I want a topical that lowers both to castration levels in the scalp. Testosterone is bad just like DHT.

 

[WorldofWarcraft]

Does this explain why my gains in the gym mysteriously have been excellent while I have been on dutas? More test in my system?

 

[AussieExperiment]

Gym

Does this explain why my gains in the gym mysteriously have been excellent while I have been on dutas? More test in my system?

Could do. What percentage do steriods increase T by? 154% is pretty crazy. I don't understand how this could keep T within "Normal" range.
Anyways, I guess it is better to have higher T and lower DHT. When it comes to hairloss it is Kind of the Better of two Evils I guess.

 

[Guest]

hey guys(aussie experiment)

have you guys(aussie experiment) looked up the definition of scalp testosterone?

it's not the level of testosterone in the follicles. who cares if testosterone inreases significantly in the sebaceous glands.

and as docj has said, some of that plain testosterone is converted to estrogen as well(estrogen doesn't hurt male hair)

 

[AussieExperiment]

Thanks Jayman

No I just made the assumption that increased Testosterone in the scalp meant that the follicles would be exposed to more Testosterone. Is this not the case?

Sorry if I sound ignorant on this. I am thinking about making the switch to dutasteride because of the success that you (Jayman) and a few others are having. I clearly need to do some more research on it so I can understand it better.

Good point about some T getting converted to estrogen. I wonder what the percentage of of conversion to estrogen would be.

Thanks Jayman.

 

[Armando Jose]

According to the study below, this is not a good new.
OTOH, steroid's metabolism is a very complex but the important's one are synthetized inside the pilosebaceous unit.

Skin Pharmacol Physiol. 2006;19(6):311-21. Epub 2006 Aug 23. Links
Effect of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone and testosterone on apoptosis in human dermal papilla cells.Winiarska A, Mandt N, Kamp H, Hossini A, Seltmann H, Zouboulis CC, Blume-Peytavi U.
Department of Dermatology and Allergy, Charite-Universitatsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.

Pathogenetic mechanisms in androgenetic alopecia are not yet fully understood; however, it is commonly accepted that androgens like testosterone (T) and 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (5alpha-DHT) inhibit hair follicle activity with early induction of the catagen. Thus, we investigated the influence of T and 5alpha-DHT on proliferation, cell death and bcl-2/bax expression in cultured dermal papilla cells (DPC) from nonbalding scalp regions of healthy volunteers. T and 5alpha-DHT induced apoptosis in DPC in a dose-dependent and time-related manner; in addition a necrotic effect due to T at 10(-5) M was found. Interestingly, bcl-2 protein expression was decreased in T- and 5alpha-DHT-treated cells, leading to an increase in the bax/bcl-2 ratio. In addition, T and 5alpha-DHT induced proteolytic cleavage of caspase 8 and inhibited proliferation of DPC at 10(-5) M. High concentrations of T and 5alpha-DHT were needed to induce apoptotic effects in DPC. These data suggest that DPC from nonbalding scalp regions do have the capacity to undergo apoptosis, but need a high androgen stimulus. The present study provides an interesting new pathogenetic approach in androgenetic alopecia.

PMID: 16931898 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Armando

 

[Pondle]

But men with 5AR deficiency never go bald, despite the presence of T. It seems DHT makes all the difference...

 

[blueshard]

Bryan what is your opinion on this?

 

[hair today gone tomorrow]

But men with 5AR deficiency never go bald, despite the presence of T. It seems DHT makes all the difference...

but they have normal T levels not 154% higher than normal.

 

[blueshard]

I wish that there was some gosh darn consensus on this sshit.

 

[Bryan]

But men with 5AR deficiency never go bald, despite the presence of T. It seems DHT makes all the difference...

but they have normal T levels not 154% higher than normal.

Their levels are a bit elevated, but not 154% higher than normal. More like it is with finasteride.

 

[AussieExperiment]

Good or bad?

So Byran is could T levels elevated by 154% counteract the benefit of lower DHT? Could this explain why some people on dutasteride don't get good results? I mean if you pretty much eliminate DHT and you still lose your hair obviously something else must be going on aswell. Obviously we are probably talking about the minority of people here (at least I hope we are).

 

[Pondle]

Re: Good or bad?

So Byran is could T levels elevated by 154% counteract the benefit of lower DHT? Could this explain why some people on dutasteride don't get good results? I mean if you pretty much eliminate DHT and you still lose your hair obviously something else must be going on aswell. Obviously we are probably talking about the minority of people here (at least I hope we are).

As Bryan's just said, T levels aren't elevated by anything like 154%. Propecia elevates circulating levels of testosterone and estradiol by around 15% as compared to baseline, but these figures are within the physiologic range.

I'm not sure if people continue to lose hair on a stronger DHT inhibitor like dutasteride - there is a dearth of study data; we actually don't know the proportion of non-responders. All we have is anecdotal evidence, and guys buying dutasteride from the internet have no way of knowing whether they are actually getting genuine drugs or not, so it's difficult to trust what they say about dutasteride's effectiveness.

 

[blueshard]

Sometimes this all makes it seem as thought finasteride is better, just because of the testosterone issue.

I am at month 4 and have shed a substantial amount of hair. I hope to god that this sshit is not killing my hair while I am just sitting here waiting for some results.

 

[Pondle]

Sometimes this all makes it seem as thought finasteride is better, just because of the testosterone issue.

We know that finasteride isn't better, the phase II results showed that dutasteride regrows more hair than finasteride.

 

[Bryan]

Re: Good or bad?

So Byran is could T levels elevated by 154% counteract the benefit of lower DHT?

I'll use the same words that Dr. Roger Rittmaster used in a medical journal review article when referring to the increase in testosterone in the prostate while using finasteride: it "blunts the effect" of the sharp decrease in DHT. That doesn't mean that the testosterone increase totally counteracts the DHT decrease, just that it moderates it a little. My guess is that the same thing also happens in the scalp.

Could this explain why some people on dutasteride don't get good results? I mean if you pretty much eliminate DHT and you still lose your hair obviously something else must be going on aswell.

I don't know what to make of the dutasteride anecdotes we hear about on hairloss sites. In the immortal words of Isaac Newton, "I frame no hypotheses."

 

[Pondle]

Bryan, what's your position on dutasteride? I know in the past you've said it's best to start with finasteride... I've used finasteride since 2005 with reasonable success but I'm itching to try dutasteride, I keep having to steer myself away from the inhousepharmacy site. Three things concern me:

1. dutasteride's effect on neurosteroids like allopregnanolone. Is this significant, and is it enough to effect long-term health?
2. dutasteride's reduction of sperm count by >20%. Is this enough to seriously impair fertility?
3. Reports of serious frontal shedding on dutasteride. Are these at all credible, given what we know about drug's effects?

 

[Bryan]

1. dutasteride's effect on neurosteroids like allopregnanolone. Is this significant, and is it enough to effect long-term health?

Nobody really knows the answer to that question...not doctors, and not even hairloss site posters!

My own guess is that it's probably not anything to worry about, at least at the recommended dose; otherwise, the FDA would have had something to say about it. But I do think using larger doses (like 2.5 mg/day) would be a great journey into the Unknown.

2. dutasteride's reduction of sperm count by >20%. Is this enough to seriously impair fertility?

Probably not, but I'd like to see what a doctor specializing in reproduction would say about that...

3. Reports of serious frontal shedding on dutasteride. Are these at all credible, given what we know about drug's effects?

Like I said before, I just don't know what to make of those claims. I can't think of any credible explanation for why such a thing would happen.

 

[Jacobo]

3. Reports of serious frontal shedding on dutasteride. Are these at all credible, given what we know about drug's effects?

Like I said before, I just don't know what to make of those claims. I can't think of any credible explanation for why such a thing would happen.

Bryan, you said before that T increment probably moderates the effect a little. If you were not taking internals at all, and then you start Dutas, a decrease of 95% DHT will help your hair more than an increase of 104% Testosterone will harm it, due to its bigger "binding affinity" (I hope I am using the proper terms).

But most Dutasteride users they have taken Finasteride before, and then jump to Dutas as an "upgrade". Then, they reduce DHT roughly on a 20% (75% to 95%, or on those lines). But they are increasing T on a 480% (from 24% to 104% if that data is correct.

Could it be that for some people or on same scalp areas more androgen-sensitive (whatever this means) that sharp increase not just moderate the beneficial effect, but makes the situation worse.

Then, spironolactone should be the perfect antidote? Yes it is weak, but it will fight just against T. And adding here the 5ar1-brain issue, it looks that 2 or 3 Dutas a week could be the most cost-effective and safe hair loss treatment.

Just my two cents here.