Scalp Massage Crunching Sounds, What Exactly Is This?

[MyThinningConfidence]

First off I've been testing scalp massages as a way to promote hair growth, this method seems to be frowned upon and even ridiculed in some hairloss discussion sites. I'm honestly a bit skeptical myself but a lot of the science behind it makes a lot of sense and it connects well enough into the mainstream hypothesis along with chronic scalp tension and androgens etc. I honestly can't find a single reason why scalp massages wouldn't have some beneficial effect on hair growth, the main study surrounding this is complete bullshit although there is one that found scalp massages increased follicle diameter but not hair density.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740347/

Now my question, so when I was first looking into scalp massages as a way to promote hair growth I found a lot of anecdotal comments that said after a couple of months their scalp loosened up and they started hearing crunching sounds. Their guesses were it was calcified and fibrotic scalp tissue being broken up or the scalp being separated from the galea since it had fused or something like that. About a month ago I actually witnessed this crunching sound, it felt absolutely disgusting at first. I'm not sure how to describe it but it sort of felt like my scalp was being ripped from my head and sounded like dense liquid bubbles were cracking and popping. Now aside from a few anecdotal experiences I can find absolutely no information on this and I seriously want to find what this is. If anyone could point me in the direction of some information or insight, that'd be much appreciated.

(I've been doing consistent scalp massages for at least 5 minutes daily since about mid May, with sporadic attempts before that.)

Ideally the best way to rest if this is fibrotic tissue caused by inflammation in the DHT cascade is for someone taking Finasteride to test out this technique. With the crunching sounds they are most prominent when you first start until broken up, once broken it seems to slowly harden again over time. I'm thinking that Finasteride could theoretically slow down this hardening process if this is actually the case.

 

[Rocknroutlaw]

I'm honestly a bit skeptical myself but a lot of the science behind it makes a lot of sense and it connects well enough into the mainstream hypothesis along with chronic scalp tension and androgens etc. I honestly can't find a single reason why scalp massages wouldn't have some beneficial effect on hair growth

I personally feel that with the abundance of options, scalp massaging seems like it an addition which is unlikely to be beneficial.
If the idea is to stimulate growth with improved blood flow, microneedling/dermarolling does it with MUCH stronger stimulation, as does topical application of Minoxidil.
Of course massages of any kind can sooth the soul, so if you;re addressing the psychological well-being, then you can benefit from it. However, with DHT being the main culprit, no amount of soul-soothing is likely to provide much gain.

 

[ZenHead]

DHT causes inflammation, restricting blood flow to the follicles and thus preventing normal cellular processes which regenerate the follicle to occur. So in theory, scalp massages should have SOME benefit, but I don't think it is nearly enough. And yes, when there is a severe lack of blood supply to any part of the body, the tissue will become fibrotic. You ever seen someone whos been a NW7 for over a decade? they usually have shiny scalps - this is what fibrosis does, it turns it into scar tissue. It has the same shine as your knuckles. What you're hearing is most likely the breakdown of fibrotic tissue. Even if you do theoretically break up all the fibrotic tissue, you won't be able to regrow your hair because the inflammatory reaction caused by DHT is not being addressed. I think massages may help the tissue remain in a state where treatments will allow the hair to grow back more easily, but it will not be enough to grow back from massages alone.

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

DHT causes inflammation, restricting blood flow to the follicles and thus preventing normal cellular processes which regenerate the follicle to occur. So in theory, scalp massages should have SOME benefit, but I don't think it is nearly enough. And yes, when there is a severe lack of blood supply to any part of the body, the tissue will become fibrotic. You ever seen someone whos been a NW7 for over a decade? they usually have shiny scalps - this is what fibrosis does, it turns it into scar tissue. It has the same shine as your knuckles. What you're hearing is most likely the breakdown of fibrotic tissue. Even if you do theoretically break up all the fibrotic tissue, you won't be able to regrow your hair because the inflammatory reaction caused by DHT is not being addressed. I think massages may help the tissue remain in a state where treatments will allow the hair to grow back more easily, but it will not be enough to grow back from massages alone.

I figured as much and I'm not doing just solely scalp massages and I understand it's not directly addressing the inflammatory response much like minoxidil. I think the next part would play into a bit of genetics as the fibrotic tissue is broken up and it will slowly go back to that state, I've already witnessed this as by the next day the crunching sound is back. I think this could possibly be more effective in those who are balding at a slower pace than others, I'm currently a 20 yo NW3-4 and I've been balding since puberty. I was actually a NW3 at 16 and probably even 15 so I'm thinking this method could be more effective in me than others. If that sound is truly fibrotic tissue being broken up at least I can definitely say it's doing something, this would also be a good way to gauge if I'm actually stopping the inflammatory response too with various topicals. I'm currently doing this method until the end of this year and if my hair receives no additional benefits or progress I'll probably just add dutasteride to the mix.

So far I've had good results from scalp massages though, folliculitis, scalp itch, excessive greasiness and shiny scalp qualities are no longer present and overall hair quality has seemed to improved, it seems to have more life, it's stronger, springy and can support its own weight as opposed to just flopping down. I've been getting more lazy with it lately though and I've noticed my scalp is getting a very faint itch and my hair is back to getting fairly greasy fast but not within an hour or two fast like it used to.

Anyways the thread was supposed to be about the crunching sound not the benefits aha, I got side tracked but I do plan to make a thread on the benefits if they actually hold up.

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

I personally feel that with the abundance of options, scalp massaging seems like it an addition which is unlikely to be beneficial.
If the idea is to stimulate growth with improved blood flow, microneedling/dermarolling does it with MUCH stronger stimulation, as does topical application of Minoxidil.
Of course massages of any kind can sooth the soul, so if you;re addressing the psychological well-being, then you can benefit from it. However, with DHT being the main culprit, no amount of soul-soothing is likely to provide much gain.

I don't see how it'd soothe the soul but yes it'd work in a much similar sense to microneedling which I'm also doing in conjunction with the massages weekly with a 1.5mm. Considering the massages are quite deep and forceful I'm not sure a 1.5mm would be deep enough to have any effects on the deeper tissue, I think I'd likely need a deeper needle to get good results.The idea with the massages is to forcefully break up scalp tissue not rub your head like a genies lamp and hope hair magically appears. In conjunction with microneedling, I don't see why the effects wouldn't be additive as I'm able to promote blood flow in the days after a microneedling session with light massages and potentially break up fibrotic tissue in the later days before the next microneedling session.

 

[ZenHead]

I don't see how it'd soothe the soul but yes it'd work in a much similar sense to microneedling which I'm also doing in conjunction with the massages weekly with a 1.5mm. Considering the massages are quite deep and forceful I'm not sure a 1.5mm would be deep enough to have any effects on the deeper tissue, I think I'd likely need a deeper needle to get good results.The idea with the massages is to forcefully break up scalp tissue not rub your head like a genies lamp and hope hair magically appears. In conjunction with microneedling, I don't see why the effects wouldn't be additive as I'm able to promote blood flow in the days after a microneedling session with light massages and potentially break up fibrotic tissue in the later days before the next microneedling session.

the goal of microneedling is to induce angiogenesis - the growth and repair of blood vessels, and it also activates a stem cell response in the body to repair the skin and hopefully the hair follicle as well. I don't think needling will do much for breaking up fibrotic tissue, but you're definitely right about promoting blood flow after microneedling, it's a solid idea. Its all about getting that blood flow in the scalp to normal non-DHT inflamed levels.

 

[furtbr]

DHT causes inflammation, restricting blood flow to the follicles and thus preventing normal cellular processes which regenerate the follicle to occur. So in theory, scalp massages should have SOME benefit, but I don't think it is nearly enough. And yes, when there is a severe lack of blood supply to any part of the body, the tissue will become fibrotic. You ever seen someone whos been a NW7 for over a decade? they usually have shiny scalps - this is what fibrosis does, it turns it into scar tissue. It has the same shine as your knuckles. What you're hearing is most likely the breakdown of fibrotic tissue. Even if you do theoretically break up all the fibrotic tissue, you won't be able to regrow your hair because the inflammatory reaction caused by DHT is not being addressed. I think massages may help the tissue remain in a state where treatments will allow the hair to grow back more easily, but it will not be enough to grow back from massages alone.

DHT causes inflamation or DHT 'cures' inflamation by a fibrosis process?

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

the goal of microneedling is to induce angiogenesis - the growth and repair of blood vessels, and it also activates a stem cell response in the body to repair the skin and hopefully the hair follicle as well. I don't think needling will do much for breaking up fibrotic tissue, but you're definitely right about promoting blood flow after microneedling, it's a solid idea. Its all about getting that blood flow in the scalp to normal non-DHT inflamed levels.

I've noticed the days after a microneedling session my scalp feels tighter and the crunching sound is less abundant so I'm really wondering if microneedling has an impact on this fibrotic tissue. I haven't really found any studies that address this so I'm highly interested in finding more about what exactly is the crunching sound and if something as simple as mechanical stimulation be enough to partially reverse it and promote blood flow to the follicles.

 

[Pixie]

Hey OP, your post is what finally encouraged me to make an account here. I just had to reply!

I tested out deep scalp massaging just now in an attempt to achieve that "crunching" sound you're talking about, and it worked. My technique was pressing hard and rolling my fingertip in the desired area. It's somewhat how you described, like dense bubbles. I don't feel any separation of tissue, but maybe that's because I have only started today.

Now here's some of what I discovered: the crunching was much more severe in the areas of my scalp where male pattern baldness hit the hardest. I also noticed that the tissue is thicker here. (For whatever reason my recession is worse on my left side) The crunchy sounds only happened where hair would be to be, so doing it on my forehead under my natural juvenile hairline yielded no results.

I will continue to do these messages to see what happens. Even if it does nothing, I like how it feels. It makes my scalp feel nice and cool. I'll report back with any new results or findings. Thanks again for this informative thread!

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

Hey OP, your post is what finally encouraged me to make an account here. I just had to reply!

I tested out deep scalp massaging just now in an attempt to achieve that "crunching" sound you're talking about, and it worked. My technique was pressing hard and rolling my fingertip in the desired area. It's somewhat how you described, like dense bubbles. I don't feel any separation of tissue, but maybe that's because I have only started today.

Now here's some of what I discovered: the crunching was much more severe in the areas of my scalp where male pattern baldness hit the hardest. I also noticed that the tissue is thicker here. (For whatever reason my recession is worse on my left side) The crunchy sounds only happened where hair would be to be, so doing it on my forehead under my natural juvenile hairline yielded no results.

I will continue to do these messages to see what happens. Even if it does nothing, I like how it feels. It makes my scalp feel nice and cool. I'll report back with any new results or findings. Thanks again for this informative thread!

That's really awesome to hear and I'm super excited that you too experienced this crunching sounds, I've been able to find no information on it aside from a few anecdotal comments from a couple of years ago. I honestly think this could be key into actually regrowing hair, I plan to make a bigger post about this in the future. I've seen some good results so far and I'm actually regrowing my hairline right now although it's hard to isolate if it's as a result of scalp massages.

I did however have some good results a month or so in -
"I'm unsure if it's gotten any thicker in terms of follicle density although it's possible each individual follicle is thicker. Overall scalp condition has improved which gives it more life, folliculitis, scalp itch, excessive greasiness and shiny scalp qualities are no longer present. Hair seems to have more life, it's stronger, springy and can support its own weight as opposed to just flopping down."

Lately my hair has started to look quite good, you can literally see zero of my scalp anymore even when it's greasy and I actually stopped doing the massage for 5 days recently, what I noticed is that my scalp itch returned and I had some very minor shedding. I even doubled down on Nizoral use and it didn't fix it, I have a pretty strong feeling that the massages were doing something very positive.

 

[Heinrich Harrer]

I can attest to this method. I haven’t noticed the crunching sounds yet. It definitely helps. Are you doing this with fingers or a vibrating machine? The latter apparently is better.

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

I can attest to this method. I haven’t noticed the crunching sounds yet. It definitely helps. Are you doing this with fingers or a vibrating machine? The latter apparently is better.

I'm currently using my fingers, I've heard of these machines and tools although I've never actually seen or been able to find one. You need to go quite hard and deep into your scalp to actually feel the crunching, you need to dig your fingers in although try not to damage the scalp with your nails. Try and get your scalp as loose and pliable as possible, you want to be able to pinch your scalp and have the skin come up and fold.

It took me 2 or so months of doing it before I actually went deep enough to hear the crunch. I decided to start doing it in the shower to save time but going deeper to reduce hair breakage since wet and then I heard the crunch. Honestly thought I was imaging things at first and that it was just the water in between my folding skin. When you actually get to the point of hearing the crunch I find it hard to imagine a tool that could get as deep and consistent as the fingers without breaking the hair.

See if you can get the crunch sound by going harder and deeper, start of slow and gentle and work your way into it, you want to relax your scalp muscles at the back of your head. If you are tense it makes massaging deeply a lot harder.

 

[ariel12160]

That's really awesome to hear and I'm super excited that you too experienced this crunching sounds, I've been able to find no information on it aside from a few anecdotal comments from a couple of years ago. I honestly think this could be key into actually regrowing hair, I plan to make a bigger post about this in the future. I've seen some good results so far and I'm actually regrowing my hairline right now although it's hard to isolate if it's as a result of scalp massages.

I did however have some good results a month or so in -
"I'm unsure if it's gotten any thicker in terms of follicle density although it's possible each individual follicle is thicker. Overall scalp condition has improved which gives it more life, folliculitis, scalp itch, excessive greasiness and shiny scalp qualities are no longer present. Hair seems to have more life, it's stronger, springy and can support its own weight as opposed to just flopping down."

Lately my hair has started to look quite good, you can literally see zero of my scalp anymore even when it's greasy and I actually stopped doing the massage for 5 days recently, what I noticed is that my scalp itch returned and I had some very minor shedding. I even doubled down on Nizoral use and it didn't fix it, I have a pretty strong feeling that the massages were doing something very positive.

hey bro , forst of all thanks for the information .

second thing - im a lot of time think that dht it not the root cause of hairloss and really believe in the tight galea theory , but i cant find how to do in a good way a scalp massage , can you please show me how you do it ?

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

hey bro , forst of all thanks for the information .

second thing - im a lot of time think that dht it not the root cause of hairloss and really believe in the tight galea theory , but i cant find how to do in a good way a scalp massage , can you please show me how you do it ?

I mostly just made up my own technique and used the crunching sound as a gauge for the effects. I also used light massages to release sebum and dandruff.
For the Deep Massages normally I use both hands with three fingers each and pinch my scalp deep and hard with those, I focus on the top of my scalp and hairline with these.
For Light Massages I just softly massage my head, then scratch it lightly to help release dandruff followed by some light rubbing of the entire scalp to get it out of my hair.

There are likely much better techniques than what I'm doing but this is just what's worked for me so far, just try to find the best way to break up most of the fibrotic tissue in the shortest amount of time possible. The more people that give this a shot, the better chance we have of discovering better techniques.

 

[Pixie]

That's really awesome to hear and I'm super excited that you too experienced this crunching sounds, I've been able to find no information on it aside from a few anecdotal comments from a couple of years ago. I honestly think this could be key into actually regrowing hair, I plan to make a bigger post about this in the future. I've seen some good results so far and I'm actually regrowing my hairline right now although it's hard to isolate if it's as a result of scalp massages.

I did however have some good results a month or so in -
"I'm unsure if it's gotten any thicker in terms of follicle density although it's possible each individual follicle is thicker. Overall scalp condition has improved which gives it more life, folliculitis, scalp itch, excessive greasiness and shiny scalp qualities are no longer present. Hair seems to have more life, it's stronger, springy and can support its own weight as opposed to just flopping down."

Lately my hair has started to look quite good, you can literally see zero of my scalp anymore even when it's greasy and I actually stopped doing the massage for 5 days recently, what I noticed is that my scalp itch returned and I had some very minor shedding. I even doubled down on Nizoral use and it didn't fix it, I have a pretty strong feeling that the massages were doing something very positive.

Well you've definitely made me a believer. Excellent progress!

 

[MyThinningConfidence]

Well you've definitely made me a believer. Excellent progress!

Thanks, it's hard to say if this is a result of solely the scalp massage though, the 1.5mm derma roller would've helped a lot but scalp massages definitely helped my overall scalp condition and it appeared to be thicker before even adding derma rolling to my regime. Initially I was considering taking some hormones to be more feminine since it makes sense considering that only men bald. It led me to this article which sent me down a rabbit hole until eventually discovering the scalp massage. The article is worth the read and all the studies are cited. Scalp massages work under this 2018 Hypothesis which is peer reviewed, it's quite in depth and I haven't gotten around to reading all of it myself.

 

[Heinrich Harrer]

Thanks, it's hard to say if this is a result of solely the scalp massage though, the 1.5mm derma roller would've helped a lot but scalp massages definitely helped my overall scalp condition and it appeared to be thicker before even adding derma rolling to my regime. Initially I was considering taking some hormones to be more feminine since it makes sense considering that only men bald. It led me to this article which sent me down a rabbit hole until eventually discovering the scalp massage. The article is worth the read and all the studies are cited. Scalp massages work under this 2018 Hypothesis which is peer reviewed, it's quite in depth and I haven't gotten around to reading all of it myself.

Don’t be so sure about the 1.5mm part. I know a guy who did that and ended up much worse, especially in areas where he already had hair. For me, 0.5 wakes up the resting hair all over my scalp but not enough to make them grow dark and thick. Whats your experience with dermarolling?

 

[Armando Jose]

Thanks, it's hard to say if this is a result of solely the scalp massage though, the 1.5mm derma roller would've helped a lot but scalp massages definitely helped my overall scalp condition and it appeared to be thicker before even adding derma rolling to my regime. Initially I was considering taking some hormones to be more feminine since it makes sense considering that only men bald. It led me to this article which sent me down a rabbit hole until eventually discovering the scalp massage. The article is worth the read and all the studies are cited. Scalp massages work under this 2018 Hypothesis which is peer reviewed, it's quite in depth and I haven't gotten around to reading all of it myself.

Hi thank you for the post, The hypothesis is good but recently a guy in this forum post about certain people that have important problems with lipids, type Berardinelly sindrome
https://www.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.iqb.es/monografia/sindromes/images/lawrence.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.iqb.es/monografia/sindromes/s009_01.htm&docid=mFxqt2ci0JNEWM&tbnid=KSE_3YDnFqCBuM:&vet=10ahUKEwjPj9qt8-rcAhUIKBoKHYkvCAkQMwhvKCcwJw..i&w=444&h=300&bih=611&biw=1366&q=berardinelly sindrome&ved=0ahUKEwjPj9qt8-rcAhUIKBoKHYkvCAkQMwhvKCcwJw&iact=mrc&uact=8

or
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0066-782X2000000900006
and they have a very good hair

The hypothesis argues that Androgenetic Alopecia is the result of chronic scalp tension
mediated by pubertal and post-pubertal skull bone growth and/or the
overdevelopment and chronic contraction of muscles connected to the
GA.

My idea is more in the line of the sebum feedback loop

 

[Heinrich Harrer]

Hi thank you for the post, The hypothesis is good but recently a guy in this forum post about certain people that have important problems with lipids, type Berardinelly sindrome
https://www.google.es/imgres?imgurl=http://www.iqb.es/monografia/sindromes/images/lawrence.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.iqb.es/monografia/sindromes/s009_01.htm&docid=mFxqt2ci0JNEWM&tbnid=KSE_3YDnFqCBuM:&vet=10ahUKEwjPj9qt8-rcAhUIKBoKHYkvCAkQMwhvKCcwJw..i&w=444&h=300&bih=611&biw=1366&q=berardinelly sindrome&ved=0ahUKEwjPj9qt8-rcAhUIKBoKHYkvCAkQMwhvKCcwJw&iact=mrc&uact=8

or
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0066-782X2000000900006
and they have a very good hair

The hypothesis argues that Androgenetic Alopecia is the result of chronic scalp tension
mediated by pubertal and post-pubertal skull bone growth and/or the
overdevelopment and chronic contraction of muscles connected to the
GA.

That would explain my terrible headaches growing up. Anyone else had those?

 

[BetaBoy]

Thanks, it's hard to say if this is a result of solely the scalp massage though, the 1.5mm derma roller would've helped a lot but scalp massages definitely helped my overall scalp condition and it appeared to be thicker before even adding derma rolling to my regime. Initially I was considering taking some hormones to be more feminine since it makes sense considering that only men bald. It led me to this article which sent me down a rabbit hole until eventually discovering the scalp massage. The article is worth the read and all the studies are cited. Scalp massages work under this 2018 Hypothesis which is peer reviewed, it's quite in depth and I haven't gotten around to reading all of it myself.

Yeah I had read this hypothesis when it was first posted in the published studies section, IMO they presents the most coherent explanation to the precursors of male pattern baldness to date, hopefully follow up studies will be conducted to verify it's validity.