Samumed Sm04554 Results Normalized To Baseline

[pegasus2]

I'm just telling you my opinion based on my own research. I'm sorry, but I really don't have time to link a dozen studies and write a page on why this method won't restore Wnt signaling to pre-Androgenetic Alopecia levels.

Yes, this seems to have a more lasting effect than minoxidil but it's only 45 days. I promise you it's not permanent. It might even be a fluke due to timing of the trial and seasonal sheds. You will see results taper off with this as well 3 months after discontinuation.

It actually is certain that minoxidil is targeting the Wnt pathway indirectly. You can't grow hair without upregulating it, and there are studies confirming minoxidil upregulates the canonical Wnt pathway. There is no single method by which it does that, but upregulating PGE1/2 is one of them, along with inhibition of GSK3b. None of these drugs are going to work long-term without stopping DHT. It's not as simple as just inhibiting GSK3b or DKK1/2. If SM restored Wnt signaling to pre-Androgenetic Alopecia levels then it would have grown more than 10 hairs.

Wnt disinhibitors have been tested in various studies too, not just on the forums. Will you also discount those? You are even discounting Samumed's own trial which showed an improvement of 10 hairs. In a recent trial minoxidil showed an improvement of 22 hairs over the same 4 month period. SM is just glorified lithium.

Sorry, but people getting their hopes up for this will be even more disappointed than the CB crowd. If you'd like to place a wager though, I'll take the free money.

 

[nick123]

took dutasteride for 2 years and my hairline just kept on receeding just like when i was on finasteride before ( my twin haas been on dutasteride for 5 years now and it's the same for him he only maitains cause he is using nuclear dose of topical min + oral min which is ruining his face).

tried low dose ru beore but honestly i'm too far gone and already hypogonadal and eligible for trt tbh my genes are too subhuman to win that fight as i know if i hop on trt the test will ruin my hairline and i'm not willing to go on high dose of RU+ dutasteride just to see if i could maintain so as much as i'll look even more hideous with no hair i think i got no choice ( turning into a woman for a few hair or giving up :/)

got some additional bloodwork to do tomorow to decide if i want to get on trt so i' waiting for sm results and maybe going to try a low dose ru and topical dutasteride just to see in the meantime.

I've also taken dutasteride for 5-6 years now and I was never able to maintain, I'm moderately diffusing all over my scalp. This year I saw the wrath of it when I lowered my dutasteride dose to 4x a week (due to my financial situation) and my hair loss just accelerated at a ridiculous pace.

I've never been able to maintain ever since my hair loss started at 16 and I'm hoping in the future a combination of dutasteride, CB-03-01 and SM04554 will give me maintenance, I'm not expecting any regrowth mostly because nothing I have ever tried has ever regrown any hair... I'm just hoping for maintenance.

 

[Jonnyyy]

I've also taken dutasteride for 5-6 years now and I was never able to maintain, I'm moderately diffusing all over my scalp. This year I saw the wrath of it when I lowered my dutasteride dose to 4x a week (due to my financial situation) and my hair loss just accelerated at a ridiculous pace.

I've never been able to maintain ever since my hair loss started at 16 and I'm hoping in the future a combination of dutasteride, CB-03-01 and SM04554 will give me maintenance, I'm not expecting any regrowth mostly because nothing I have ever tried has ever regrown any hair... I'm just hoping for maintenance.

My hair loss also started at 16, 22 now, how old are you? this and dermarolling / minoxidil are my last hopes pretty much everything I’ve tried has given me bad side effects or I’d be on sh*t like propecia / dutasteride. Currently Norwood 3 and diffuse loss starting to look bad

 

[bags]

well smh... there goes my high hopes for SM.. .well, actually if it is a weak side effect free version of minoxidil ill take it. No heart issues, collagen degredation etc...

@pegasus2 or anyone else who understands the method via which KY works; it would be nice to start a thread regarding that or just post it here I guess. What exact mechanism does that supposedly work on and is that at least more of a hope based on your understanding of the science... sigh...

 

[nick123]

My hair loss also started at 16, 22 now, how old are you? this and dermarolling / minoxidil are my last hopes pretty much everything I’ve tried has given me bad side effects or I’d be on sh*t like propecia / dutasteride. Currently Norwood 3 and diffuse loss starting to look bad

25.

I'm just telling you my opinion based on my own research. I'm sorry, but I really don't have time to link a dozen studies and write a page on why this method won't restore Wnt signaling to pre-Androgenetic Alopecia levels.

Yes, this seems to have a more lasting effect than minoxidil but it's only 45 days. I promise you it's not permanent. It might even be a fluke due to timing of the trial and seasonal sheds. You will see results taper off with this as well 3 months after discontinuation.

It actually is certain that minoxidil is targeting the Wnt pathway indirectly. You can't grow hair without upregulating it, and there are studies confirming minoxidil upregulates the canonical Wnt pathway. There is no single method by which it does that, but upregulating PGE1/2 is one of them, along with inhibition of GSK3b. None of these drugs are going to work long-term without stopping DHT. It's not as simple as just inhibiting GSK3b or DKK1/2. If SM restored Wnt signaling to pre-Androgenetic Alopecia levels then it would have grown more than 10 hairs.

Wnt disinhibitors have been tested in various studies too, not just on the forums. Will you also discount those? You are even discounting Samumed's own trial which showed an improvement of 10 hairs. In a recent trial minoxidil showed an improvement of 22 hairs over the same 4 month period. SM is just glorified lithium.

Sorry, but people getting their hopes up for this will be even more disappointed than the CB crowd. If you'd like to place a wager though, I'll take the free money.

@pegasus2

Do you reckon it would be pointless to combine SM04554 with Minoxidil since Minoxidil is already known to work on the Wnt pathway?

Is there anything currently in clinical trials that you reckon can compete with minoxidils efficacy?

 

[pegasus2]

If dutasteride and minoxidil maintains

well smh... there goes my high hopes for SM.. .well, actually if it is a weak side effect free version of minoxidil ill take it. No heart issues, collagen degredation etc...

@pegasus2 or anyone else who understands the method via which KY works; it would be nice to start a thread regarding that or just post it here I guess. What exact mechanism does that supposedly work on and is that at least more of a hope based on your understanding of the science... sigh...

Right, at least SM may be a more tolerable drug than minoxidil, and effective in minoxidil non-responders.

KY is more promising. It targets cxxc5 and GSK3b. Without knowing the full MOA for SM it's impossible to say for certain that KY will be better, but given KY's MOA I would expect it to outperform SM's phase 2 results.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/south-korean-scientists-has-developed-a-new-type-of-biochemical-material-to-prevent-hair-loss.109920/

25.


@pegasus2

Do you reckon it would be pointless to combine SM04554 with Minoxidil since Minoxidil is already known to work on the Wnt pathway?

Is there anything currently in clinical trials that you reckon can compete with minoxidils efficacy?

It's worth using both. Minoxidil has a broad range of actions, while SM is more targeted. It's probably considerably more effective at GSK3b phosphorylation than minoxidil.

Bayer's prolactin antibody is promising, and KY might be more potent than minoxidil. There's a very promising r-spondin agonist that might be used for hair someday, but the startup behind it seems to be focused on other diseases. The future is bright for our children, but it's going to be a long wait for us.

 

[ElToso]

If dutasteride and minoxidil maintains

Right, at least SM may be a more tolerable drug than minoxidil, and effective in minoxidil non-responders.

KY is more promising. It targets cxxc5 and GSK3b. Without knowing the full MOA for SM it's impossible to say for certain that KY will be better, but given KY's MOA I would expect it to outperform SM's phase 2 results.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/south-korean-scientists-has-developed-a-new-type-of-biochemical-material-to-prevent-hair-loss.109920/

It's worth using both. Minoxidil has a broad range of actions, while SM is more targeted. It's probably considerably more effective at GSK3b phosphorylation than minoxidil.

Bayer's prolactin antibody is promising, and KY might be more potent than minoxidil. There's a very promising r-spondin agonist that might be used for hair someday, but the startup behind it seems to be focused on other diseases. The future is bright for our children, but it's going to be a long wait for us.

How would you integrate SM with a microneedling protocol? Every day or just 3 days after wounding?

 

[ElToso]

That's debatable, but 3 days isn't long enough. There's a problem with high Wnt levels during late wound healing, but that's much later, around 3 weeks in one study. Does that matter if you're wounding every 2 weeks? I don't have a clue how to best time it, which is why I risk using a Hh agonist still. In the presence of Hh activation it's not an issue. It allows me to use potent Wnt agonists every day without worrying about scarring. I just have to worry about cancer lol

Yeah I read that study and it upset me since I follow the follica patent. I wonder if Follica has taken this into account. Theoretically the macrophages are activated immediately after the 15th day, therefore in conjunction with the new wounding session. SHH is the key, unfortunately I haven't yet been able to find a safer agonist than SAG other than minoxidil + a.azelaic pairing

 

[nick123]

If dutasteride and minoxidil maintains

Right, at least SM may be a more tolerable drug than minoxidil, and effective in minoxidil non-responders.

KY is more promising. It targets cxxc5 and GSK3b. Without knowing the full MOA for SM it's impossible to say for certain that KY will be better, but given KY's MOA I would expect it to outperform SM's phase 2 results.

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/threads/south-korean-scientists-has-developed-a-new-type-of-biochemical-material-to-prevent-hair-loss.109920/

It's worth using both. Minoxidil has a broad range of actions, while SM is more targeted. It's probably considerably more effective at GSK3b phosphorylation than minoxidil.

Bayer's prolactin antibody is promising, and KY might be more potent than minoxidil. There's a very promising r-spondin agonist that might be used for hair someday, but the startup behind it seems to be focused on other diseases. The future is bright for our children, but it's going to be a long wait for us.

@pegasus2 Thank you for the time for explaining that, I really appreciate it!

 

[Tom4362]

No.

What's the problem? Not enough interest?

 

[Gegen]

well smh... there goes my high hopes for SM.. .well, actually if it is a weak side effect free version of minoxidil ill take it. No heart issues, collagen degredation etc...

@pegasus2 or anyone else who understands the method via which KY works; it would be nice to start a thread regarding that or just post it here I guess. What exact mechanism does that supposedly work on and is that at least more of a hope based on your understanding of the science... sigh...

Yeah sure. But I'm still interested by SM as it appears that the more young you are and the more hair you have => the more regrowth you get. So SM might be helpful for a subgroup of patients (young and >NW3, maybe more if you're lucky) as in this subgroup, regrowth was approximatively equal to minoxidil's responders rate.

+ thanks to Pegasus for taking time to explain all of this, really useful for general knowledge.

 

[MrJolly26]

Hope this shirt will help us with our temples.

Fingers crossed though it seems no one is positive about Samumed´s effects.

 

[Oppenheimer]

This plus dermarolling is as close to a cure as it gets.

 

[MrV88]

sometimes I wonder if Samumed, Replicel / Shisheido, Follica could not be a cure together ..

We will know in five years bro...

 

[pegasus2]

This plus dermarolling is as close to a cure as it gets.

Follica tried a similar compound with wounding, and the results were not good. Dermarolling plus minoxidil was superior. I think it's time to ignore this thread, as people just keep repeating the same copes and hopes every few pages.

 

[frank33]

I think you should start taking pegasus posts for what they are: WILD speculation. Do not lose faith in this drug, at least wait phase 3 studies. And do not believe someone just because he is pessimistic!

 

[jan_miezda]

I think you should start taking pegasus posts for what they are: WILD speculation. Do not lose faith in this drug, at least wait phase 3 studies. And do not believe someone just because he is pessimistic!

If it don’t work in someone who tried it, you really think this is a cure? It will be a treatment that have so much variation in efficacy like minoxidil.

 

[inmyhead]

It's kinda funny how you guys are wasting time speculating when you could just wait few months for results to be published.

 

[John Difool]

I think you should start taking pegasus posts for what they are: WILD speculation. Do not lose faith in this drug, at least wait phase 3 studies. And do not believe someone just because he is pessimistic!

You sound like a religious priest. Nothing to back up what you are saying but talking about faith and turning down facts by calling sciences pessimistic.

I guess you are new here with only 4 posts to support your opinion and all in that thread. Your credibility based on your contribution seems a bit light compared to the man you are criticising.

 

[frank33]

You sound like a religious priest. Nothing to back up what you are saying but talking about faith and turning down facts by calling sciences pessimistic.

I guess you are new here with only 4 posts to support your opinion and all in that thread. Your credibility based on your contribution seems a bit light compared to the man you are criticising.

I'm not turning down facts, i'm turning down speculations about a drug for which we don't even know the full MOA yet, so i really don't understand how we could possibly forecast its efficacy.
Facts are clinical studies and publications. Being so easy to determine the effectiveness of a drug, pharmaceutical companies wouldn't be wasting time with clinical trials which are known to be extremely energy, time, and money consuming.

It's kinda funny how you guys are wasting time speculating when you could just wait few months for results to be published.

That's what we should do, wait a few months for results, make as many theories as we want but we should avoid mistaking speculating theories with facts. Phase 3 results will tell the truth about this drug, and maybe pegasus will be right, and i'll be the stupid priest, maybe not.