Samumed- Sm04554 Phase 2 Results Safety And Biopsy Outcomes

resu

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This is impressive and proves

1) Follicles never die even after years of being a total bald NW9
2) Apparently its all about androgens? what the f*** do these guys do? they removed their testicles? This is interesting since I remember reading somewhere castration after adulthood wouldn't make you inmune to baldness, but those pics say otherwise, in fact they show massive regrowth which proves anything but androgen treatments are almost irrelevant. What im missing here?
Are you sure those aren't wigs?

It's the estrogen.
 

Afro_Vacancy

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I tell people the same thing and they won't shut up. They say after a few years all hope is lost. They're idiots. As long as you have peach fuzz it can be turned into good hairs.

Yeah great hairs if you're willing to go trans.
 

infinitepain

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Yes, you posted how castration and estrogen supplementation leds to hair. Im asking how do we do this without castrating ourselves and systemically raising estrogen, which is why im pointing out to topicals.

I
Also see the theory about homeless alcoholics retaining their hair.[
What theory is that? my dad always has drank a lot of beer and he is not only bald but fat.
 

Grasshüpfer

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Yes, you posted how castration and estrogen supplementation leds to hair. Im asking how do we do this without castrating ourselves and systemically raising estrogen, which is why im pointing out to topicals.

That's the point: It's impossible without castration.
It only works if you remove any androgens, like testo and replace it through loads of estrogen.

Finasteride is basically doing exactly that, albeit weaker.

The question is: What does the estrogen do? The answer to this question is discussed by swoop and inbeforethecure over in the genome wide association study thread.
 

infinitepain

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That's the point: It's impossible without castration.
It only works if you remove any androgens, like testo and replace it through loads of estrogen.

Finasteride is basically doing exactly that, albeit weaker.

The question is: What does the estrogen do? The answer to this question is discussed by swoop and inbeforethecure over in the genome wide association study thread.
I have looked at your signature. How much RU are you using weekly? daily twice a day?
What's your take on those that claim chronic RU usage can backfire?
Any studies on dermapenning working or is it broscience? I was considering buying the dermapen.
Also is seti worth the money? it's too expensive.
What about estrogel and e4d? how do you know it's a good idea to use that on the scalp? sometimes things look like good ideas, but they can back fire due adaptations and whatnot, that is my fear.
 

thinning44

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From my read of this Phase 2b trial, it looks like it was really about examining the biopsies and understanding if there were new follicles forming in the skin. The results seem overwhelmingly positive in that regard with 64-77% more follicles of all types versus baseline/placebo at 135 days. What happens months later with those follicles? What happens with longer dosing?

It looks like they also collected hair growth/density data, but like others have noted, participation was optional and the number of participants dropped off so much in the longer timeframe that it's impossible to really learn much from the data. They were counting 4-8 terminal hairs on 7 & 8 patients in each treated group, so the growth data for this study should be largely ignored as you can imagine the variance with so few hairs and so few patients. Remember that the 300 patient Phase 2a showed 6-10% growth with 90 days of application and 135 days of total observation. Promising relative to other options when those other options produce similar results with a year of dosing. What will longer dosing period do?
 

Afro_Vacancy

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"It's the estrogen".

You are going to need more than that. Explain how exactly it is the estrogen? Shouldn't we just be applying massive amounts of estrogen topically?

Estrogen apparently goes systemic.
 

pegasus2

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Of course. Apply it massively if you want boobs and hips!
You're female anyway, right? So why not try estrogen? I would think all the females here would be rubbing it on their heads every day.
 

hairblues

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You're female anyway, right? So why not try estrogen? I would think all the females here would be rubbing it on their heads every day.

It's a bit controversial...excess estrogen can increase cancer risk in women.
And I believe I had read IF you get cancer due to excess estrogen it is aggressive.
 

Grasshüpfer

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I have looked at your signature. How much RU are you using weekly? daily twice a day?
What's your take on those that claim chronic RU usage can backfire?
Any studies on dermapenning working or is it broscience? I was considering buying the dermapen.
Also is seti worth the money? it's too expensive.
What about estrogel and e4d? how do you know it's a good idea to use that on the scalp? sometimes things look like good ideas, but they can back fire due adaptations and whatnot, that is my fear.

Right now I dropped seti and estrogel.
I was only on estrogel, because I had worryingly low estrogen levels measured.
But I still dropped precisely, because it would likely backfire.

I'm using about 80mg of ru a day in a 2ml solution. That's roughly 5%.

So basically my regimen is finasteride, Ru and dermastamping.
I'm only on it for five months (finasteride) and seven months (ru).
Long term I will drop everything for one week every month, to address upregulation. But it's all heresay. What is proven by studies is: finasteride every day.
 

whatevr

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Estrogen apparently goes systemic.

VERY apparently. I've tried numerous estrogen preparations (lotions, creams) - it doesn't matter where you put them on your body, through the scalp, etc. they will ALL end up in the bloodstream to varying degrees, along with all the side effects that brings. Shame, because it's the best thing for regrowth I've seen so far.

What is proven by studies is: finasteride every day.

After my experience with Finasteride I don't give a sh*t what studies say. I waited one year for it to work - nothing positive happened and I kept losing hair.

Alpicort F - within 3 weeks noticeably better state of hair, within 2 months back to solid NW2 and increased thickness over all head
RU58841 - within 2 weeks frontal hairline already more inclined to stay upright and hairs do not bend over

When something works, you can usually see the results very quickly. When it doesn't, you can make a fool out of yourself for months, all the while looking worse and worse. At least, that has been MY experience. I know some people here see a turnaround after 1 year , or 2 years on finasteride/dutasteride, but you know what I say?

If I am going to be growing tits for months (which happens no matter what treatment I use) then I also rather be growing hair at the same time as well.
 
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pegasus2

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It's a bit controversial...excess estrogen can increase cancer risk in women.
And I believe I had read IF you get cancer due to excess estrogen it is aggressive.
Yes, there's conflicting data. It may or may not cause cancer. We simply don't know yet. If I was a woman I'd be swimming in the stuff.
 

Grasshüpfer

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After my experience with Finasteride I don't give a sh*t what studies say. I waited one year for it to work - nothing positive happened and I kept losing hair.

I agree with your whole post 100%. I still recommend to try first what's scientifically proven. Logic.

Still there is so little information around, so little proven by studies. It's driving me mad.

There are tons of guys on the forums with high estrogen who do very well with ru, but loose hair on finasteride and get sides.

Makes total sense, because Ru binds stronger to ar than testo but weaker than dht. Now dht is a direct estrogen antagonist, so people with high estrogen are unlikely to have high dht binding to ar.

But it's really just my crazy theory and therefore completely invalid.

Same with the pill for girls. No studies, just trial and error. Pfs is basically normal among young girls, just not as visible because no limp dick.
 

Grasshüpfer

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@Nadia1972
I think me and many other members still owe you some apologies from the Brotzu thread. ;)

Désolé.
 

pegasus2

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Yeah ahem'
Well breast cancer risk. Plus I use to use estrogens cream along with anti androgens. It really calm the shedding down, but I swallow like a balloon and I am having a lot of trouble losing this weight. I think it is water. Anyway. Never use estrogens massively IMO.

It works great for transgenders. Again, the research is not definitive. You can't say there is a risk. There may be a risk. There may be a risk to anything though. I just got done dermarolling, and covered my head in Estriol afterwards. I'm only using itonly use it once a week because I don't want to be a woman, but if I was a woman I'd take the minimal risk.
 
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