Safety Long-Term Usage 5% Minoxidil

[Bryan]

so basically bryan, if i understood your point, when somebody uses minoxidil it will set off more growth but after, let's say 10 years, we're down to baseline again.

Correct.

that means one could drop minoxidil after a few years because it lost it's effectiveness? is this right?

It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth. The problem is that the balding process has OVERTAKEN and SURPASSED that offset of growth. You'll have even fewer hairs than the day you first started using topical minoxidil. But if you stop using it at that later date, you'll lose even MORE hairs, unfortunately.

See what I'm saying?

 

[majorsixth]

so basically bryan, if i understood your point, when somebody uses minoxidil it will set off more growth but after, let's say 10 years, we're down to baseline again.

Correct.

that means one could drop minoxidil after a few years because it lost it's effectiveness? is this right?

It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth. The problem is that the balding process has OVERTAKEN and SURPASSED that offset of growth. You'll have even fewer hairs than the day you first started using topical minoxidil. But if you stop using it at that later date, you'll lose even MORE hairs, unfortunately.

See what I'm saying?

So how long is it approximately before the balding process over takes the offset of growth?

 

[Bryan]

So how long is it approximately before the balding process over takes the offset of growth?

Can't say. Everybody has his own natural rate of balding.

 

[majorsixth]

Posted by Bryan
It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth.

I think you should be more specific here, because to me this statement is either saying that the minoxidil is regrowing new hair all the time, or it's maintaining the new hair that it initially grew? :dunno:

 

[Bryan]

Topical minoxidil causes more hairs to be there in existence, than if you had never used topical minoxidil at all. Nevertheless, the number of hairs in existence is still slowly declining, due to balding. Does that make more sense?

 

[majorsixth]

Topical minoxidil causes more hairs to be there in existence, than if you had never used topical minoxidil at all. Nevertheless, the number of hairs in existence is still slowly declining, due to balding. Does that make more sense?

Yes of course this second statement makes sense, however it's not in any way the same as the first statement.

So lets evaluate it.

First you where asked if minoxidil loses it's effectiveness to which you reply No You don't discuss whether it's effectiveness is gradually reduced with time your answer is No It doesn't lose it's effectiveness So i take this to say mnox continues to provide the same efficacy throughtout it's use.

You then say it continues to produce a offset of growth This statement does not imply that there is a gradual decline of the offset of growth. It implies that the minoxidil is keeping the offset of growth by maintaining the initial growth or the hair is continually being replaced.

 

[Bryan]

Topical minoxidil causes more hairs to be there in existence, than if you had never used topical minoxidil at all. Nevertheless, the number of hairs in existence is still slowly declining, due to balding. Does that make more sense?

Yes of course this second statement makes sense, however it's not in any way the same as the first statement.

It's exactly the same as the first statement I made; it's just a little hard to understand what these things can mean, when words are the only thing you have to go by. If I could sit down with you with a piece of paper and a pencil, I could EASILY draw a simple diagram that shows you exactly what I mean. Trying to describe the diagram just in WORDS is the difficult part.

So lets evaluate it.

First you where asked if minoxidil loses it's effectiveness to which you reply No You don't discuss whether it's effectiveness is gradually reduced with time your answer is No It doesn't lose it's effectiveness So i take this to say mnox continues to provide the same efficacy throughtout it's use.

You then say it continues to produce a offset of growth This statement does not imply that there is a gradual decline of the offset of growth. It implies that the minoxidil is keeping the offset of growth by maintaining the initial growth or the hair is continually being replaced.

Minoxidil continues to maintain the same offset of growth, so it doesn't lose its effectiveness IN THAT SPECIFIC WAY. However, haircounts still continue to drop, because of balding.

Here, I've got an idea of how to describe it with words: imagine two identical twins, who have EXACTLY the same balding hair. Both of them have haircounts that drop by exactly 5 hairs per month. Their haircounts would be the following numbers: first month, 100; second month, 95; third month, 90; fourth month, 85; fifth month, 80; etc. etc.

But one of the twins starts using topical minoxidil, and he soon grows TWO MORE HAIRS THAN HIS BROTHER. Unfortunately, though, he still continues to go bald at the same rate. Here are the two numbers that show how many hairs the two brothers now have: first month, 100 and 102 (the second number is the twin that uses topical minoxidil); second month, 95 and 97; third month, 90 and 92; fourth month, 85 and 87; fifth month, 80 and 82; etc. etc.

See how it works? The twin using topical minoxidil has an "offset of growth" of two extra hairs, but BOTH twins still continue to lose 5 hairs/month from balding.

 

[zeroes]

Once minoxidil loses its effectiveness why can't the hair that balding killed be regrowen with minoxidil?

 

[majorsixth]

Topical minoxidil causes more hairs to be there in existence, than if you had never used topical minoxidil at all. Nevertheless, the number of hairs in existence is still slowly declining, due to balding. Does that make more sense?

Yes of course this second statement makes sense, however it's not in any way the same as the first statement.

It's exactly the same as the first statement I made; it's just a little hard to understand what these things can mean, when words are the only thing you have to go by. If I could sit down with you with a piece of paper and a pencil, I could EASILY draw a simple diagram that shows you exactly what I mean. Trying to describe the diagram just in WORDS is the difficult part.

So lets evaluate it.

First you where asked if minoxidil loses it's effectiveness to which you reply No You don't discuss whether it's effectiveness is gradually reduced with time your answer is No It doesn't lose it's effectiveness So i take this to say mnox continues to provide the same efficacy throughtout it's use.

You then say it continues to produce a offset of growth This statement does not imply that there is a gradual decline of the offset of growth. It implies that the minoxidil is keeping the offset of growth by maintaining the initial growth or the hair is continually being replaced.

Minoxidil continues to maintain the same offset of growth, so it doesn't lose its effectiveness IN THAT SPECIFIC WAY. However, haircounts still continue to drop, because of balding.

Here, I've got an idea of how to describe it with words: imagine two identical twins, who have EXACTLY the same balding hair. Both of them have haircounts that drop by exactly 5 hairs per month. Their haircounts would be the following numbers: first month, 100; second month, 95; third month, 90; fourth month, 85; fifth month, 80; etc. etc.

But one of the twins starts using topical minoxidil, and he soon grows TWO MORE HAIRS THAN HIS BROTHER. Unfortunately, though, he still continues to go bald at the same rate. Here are the two numbers that show how many hairs the two brothers now have: first month, 100 and 102 (the second number is the twin that uses topical minoxidil); second month, 95 and 97; third month, 90 and 92; fourth month, 85 and 87; fifth month, 80 and 82; etc. etc.

See how it works? The twin using topical minoxidil has an "offset of growth" of two extra hairs, but BOTH twins still continue to lose 5 hairs/month from balding.

Your first statement is direct contradiction to the second.

Why won't you just admit that minoxidil maintains the new growth for what ever period that might be. as this varies from individual to individual ?

 

[WarLord]

I see that moron is really very active. Over 7000 posts. I wonder, what is he actually doing here? Does he want to show off himself here? Or does he like frustrating people? Did he ever take minoxidil on his own? I read that he didn't.

Look, moron, if you know finasteride studies, they also show a gradual decrease of hair counts after 1-2 years. This however doesn't mean that the hair count universally decreases in all subjects. This would be utterly absurd. The stuff regrows dead hair and suddenly, after mere 2 years, it is not even able to keep it?!

As we know from the recent 10-years study of Rossi et al. (2011), 65% people maintained their hair, 21% even continued regrowing hair. Only 14% lost hair. What does it mean? This most likely mean that it is the minority of non-responders that contributes to the declining AVERAGE curve of hair counts. Some of them may be below baseline after several years, yet some others still gain hair. Why should minoxidil be different from finasteride, when people report success on it for 10+ years? The studies also show that the effect of minoxidil is strongly influenced by the frequency of use. This is a serious issue in a topical stuff.

I tell myself that I should stop visiting forums like this. There is a plenty of frustrated nuts and blockheads, who only put people into depression. I was comfortably keeping my hair for more than 15 years, but now I became paranoid, because some clown is telling me that I should have lost it 10 years ago. He should have been blocked already by the administrator, because nothing that leaves his mouth/fingers on the keyboard is useful in any way.

 

[WarLord]

But one of the twins starts using topical minoxidil, and he soon grows TWO MORE HAIRS THAN HIS BROTHER. Unfortunately, though, he still continues to go bald at the same rate.

He doesn't continue to go bald at the same rate, you dumbass. The curve you saw in your studies is an average hair count, which incorporates all subjects from the study. It is utterly absurd that someone would regrow a lot of dead hair and after mere 2 years, he would start to lose it. The declining curve reflects declining hair counts in bad responders, who probobly didn't regrow any hair at all and only kept their hair for a short time.

The authors of the study I commented had misinterpreted the results in a perverse way, after all. The standard deviation in the group that used minoxidil twice a day (INTERRUPTED LINE) was very large, which means that there were subjects, who were losing hair very rapidly, despite the fact that the average hair count in this group has slightly improved after 3 years (+22.6 +/- 104.3 hairs). After 3 years, the good responders probably didn't regrow any further hair, and it was the bad responders, who started to drag the average down. As a result, the average of the group declined between 3-5 years.

Yet the guys from the group that had used minoxidil only once a day between 1-3 years (THICK LINE) and switched to twice-daily use after 3 years, didn't experience any loss between 3-5 years and actually even slightly improved. How is it possible? The answer is simple: There were no bad responders in this group. The reaction to minoxidil is very individual.

When you realize that these guys were a big way above baseline after 5 years and didn't experience any hair loss at proper daily usage (although I never used minoxidil twice a day and it worked as well), you shouldn't wonder the anecdotical reports about people using minoxidil successfully for 15-20 years.

I repeat it again: It is the bad responders, who erase the otherwise good response in many people in the study, and it is the bad responders, who subsequently flood internet forums, crying that minoxidil stops working after several years.

 

[majorsixth]

Because we are all individual you will find that daily hair loss can range from 10-20 hairs a day while some lose 100-200. Plotting every individuals rate of hair loss is inpractical so a average is taken of all participants of a study. This data is then shown graphically.

But the average is meaninless to the guy losing 200 or more hairs a day against some guy losing 20 because there is a difference of 10 fold.

So the studies are not all they are cranked up to be. They are only of value as a very rough guide.

 

[Bryan]

Once minoxidil loses its effectiveness why can't the hair that balding killed be regrowen with minoxidil?

I don't know. If you ever figure that one out, let me know!

 

[Bryan]

Your first statement is direct contradiction to the second.

You said something like that before, but I didn't really understand what you meant, so I just let it go. Since you're repeating this again, I can't keep doing that. Explain to me what you mean by the "first statement" and the "second statement".

Why won't you just admit that minoxidil maintains the new growth for what ever period that might be. as this varies from individual to individual ?

Almost all minoxidil studies show that it gradually loses effect over time, and haircounts slowly diminish. I've said this repeatedly.

 

[Bryan]

I see that moron is really very active. Over 7000 posts. I wonder, what is he actually doing here? Does he want to show off himself here? Or does he like frustrating people? Did he ever take minoxidil on his own? I read that he didn't.

Are you the same person who wrote a similar nasty message to me a day or two ago, over on HLH? Watch your mouth, pal! You don't get anywhere by calling people names! By the way, I _have_ used topical minoxidil on my own.

Look, moron, if you know finasteride studies, they also show a gradual decrease of hair counts after 1-2 years. This however doesn't mean that the hair count universally decreases in all subjects. This would be utterly absurd. The stuff regrows dead hair and suddenly, after mere 2 years, it is not even able to keep it?!

As we know from the recent 10-years study of Rossi et al. (2011), 65% people maintained their hair, 21% even continued regrowing hair. Only 14% lost hair. What does it mean? This most likely mean that it is the minority of non-responders that contributes to the declining AVERAGE curve of hair counts. Some of them may be below baseline after several years, yet some others still gain hair. Why should minoxidil be different from finasteride, when people report success on it for 10+ years? The studies also show that the effect of minoxidil is strongly influenced by the frequency of use. This is a serious issue in a topical stuff.

Finasteride shows a FAR FAR greater tendency than minoxidil to "interfere" with the fundamental balding process. Exactly how it does that, I'll leave for you as an exercise. I know it's the gosh-darndest thing when you find out that minoxidil might actually be different from finasteride, but ain't science wonderful?

I tell myself that I should stop visiting forums like this. There is a plenty of frustrated nuts and blockheads, who only put people into depression. I was comfortably keeping my hair for more than 15 years, but now I became paranoid, because some clown is telling me that I should have lost it 10 years ago. He should have been blocked already by the administrator, because nothing that leaves his mouth/fingers on the keyboard is useful in any way.

I think you SHOULD stop visiting forums like this. You're just wasting my time, and other people's time.

 

[majorsixth]

Posted by Bryan
Almost all minoxidil studies show that it gradually loses effect over time, and haircounts slowly diminish. I've said this repeatedly.

Bryan you must be getting absent minded old chap, this is another contradiction to your earlier post where you where asked if minoxidil loses effectiveness to which you replied

Posted by Bryan
It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth. The problem is that the balding process has OVERTAKEN and SURPASSED that offset of growth.

But i do agree with the above contradiction that minoxidil loses it's effects over time. But that time line will be different for individuals.

This much i do know for sure, all my hair on top is minoxidil grown , heading for the 5 year mark and it's still growing well on just minoxidil alone. I quit finasteride a year ago.

If you nolonger use proxiphen, what are you using to help your male pattern baldness situation?

 

[Bryan]

Posted by Bryan
Almost all minoxidil studies show that it gradually loses effect over time, and haircounts slowly diminish. I've said this repeatedly.

Bryan you must be getting absent minded old chap, this is another contradiction to your earlier post where you where asked if minoxidil loses effectiveness to which you replied

[quote:3t5cuf52] Posted by Bryan
It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth. The problem is that the balding process has OVERTAKEN and SURPASSED that offset of growth.

[/quote:3t5cuf52]

Did you not understand the numerical example i gave earlier today on the previous page? The one about the twins (one of whom used minoxidil) slowly losing hair, but maintaining the "offset of growth"? I worked hard on that, and was hoping that you'd understand that simple numerical example I provided.

 

[majorsixth]

Posted by Bryan
Almost all minoxidil studies show that it gradually loses effect over time, and haircounts slowly diminish. I've said this repeatedly.

Bryan you must be getting absent minded old chap, this is another contradiction to your earlier post where you where asked if minoxidil loses effectiveness to which you replied

[quote:1zxlybqc] Posted by Bryan
It hasn't "lost it's effectiveness", because it's still producing that offset of growth. The problem is that the balding process has OVERTAKEN and SURPASSED that offset of growth.

Did you not understand the numerical example i gave earlier today on the previous page? The one about the twins (one of whom used minoxidil) slowly losing hair, but maintaining the "offset of growth"? I worked hard on that, and was hoping that you'd understand that simple numerical example I provided.[/quote:1zxlybqc]

You can't tell other readers that minoxidil don't lose it's effectiveness in one post then in another that it does.

I quoted your exact words which show this. I don't think you actually understand what your saying your self, but then you are a very old man so maybe some senile dementa is behind the problem. I shall call it a day there as it's like debating with a child, just can't get to make that connection.

 

[WarLord]

Why don't the administrator block this senile moron? He obviously has nothing to do, as he is lurking about the internet, posting thousands of poisonous rubbish in all directions. (Despite that it is not the first time, when people tell him that their experience is the exact opposite and they maintain hair on minoxidil for 10-20 years.)

I suspect he is some bald frustrated conehead, who is envious that some other people still keep their hair for many years or even decades.

 

[WarLord]

KOPERSKI ET AL. 1987 - Another study quoted by Mr. Conehead.
http://www.google.cz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... W97EknWn9Q
Let's look, what the results actually say!

33 patients divided into 3 groups by response:

Wow, here we have it again! The best responders (n=12, 36% of the studied group) have been regrowing hair even after 2,5 years!

38.7% of patients thought that they were no longer losing hair after 30 months.

When you look at the curves, they are difficult to reconcile. It is hard to believe that there would be such huge differences in response, and that many subjects would end up at the baseline level after only 2,5 years. One of the reasons may lie in the concentration of minoxidil, because another picture in the study shows that patients using 2% minoxidil were losing hair more rapidly after the 1-year mark.

However, the most natural explanation that comes on my mind is the human factor. In another study mentioned by the authors (Olsen et al. 1985), hair count decreased between 12-31 months, if the patients started to use minoxidil only once daily, but were maintained, if the patients continued to use minoxidil twice daily. The authors of Koperski et al.'s study call the compliance of their patients "excellent", but the real data show that only 67% patients applied minoxidil twice daily regularly (more than 90% of the time). You can only guess, how it was in reality.

In any case, this study again proves what I said before: The seemingly declining curve after several years of therapy doesn't concern all patients. It is caused by hair loss in bad responders. In three studies that I read, 30%, 36% and 80% of the studied patients continued to regrow hair after 5, 2,5 and 4 years, respectively. The key finding of these studies is that the maintenance of regrown hair after the 1-year mark requires a very disciplined compliance, and possibly also the use of a stronger minoxidil version.