Religion and Balding?

[BiteMe]

I think you are the ones who don't get it.

God is not some 'omnipotent being' who sits in a chair in the clouds and punches buttons to make life easy for you. It is from the struggle that one learns the truth. Personally, the use of the word 'being' implicitly assumes that God is a man, and I do not think that God is a human.

You don't need to dwell on this idea that god is not a man I really don't think anyone here thinks god is a man.

[quote="The Gardener":028dd]Life is what it is, as a result of the actions of people on earth who don't understand how to properly direct the energy within them.

Excusing the 'energy within' (whatever that means) this is about right. Religion is not needed to explain that.

The problem is that too many people have no regard for their fellow humans, or for humanity. This is what causes the problems in the world, basically, a lack of love and a lack of respect or appreciation for the power that each person has within them.

True, the worst offenders being the corporate, religious, greed driven, selfish hordes harvesting both resources and morality for themselves.

The God I know..

how do you 'know this 'god'?

...doesn't want to force people to make 'good' choices. He wants us to be knowledgeable to make these choices for ourselves, and sometimes this requires adversity.

And this adversity involves a life of misery, pain, humiliation, heartbreak, poverty and desperation for tens of millions of his poor creatures, if they fail to follow the correct rituals during this desperate life, they are cast down amongst the dammed and burn for eternity.

This to me is the description of a monster, adolf hitler could, by your description, be described as a god and I am sure to many of his victims he was omnipotent, showing them misery and finally ending there days in flames.

And how do you know this is what your god wants?

All Jesus tried to say is that YOU have power and the potential to love. Get in touch with what is truly right and wrong, for you, and for those around you, and direct your power and love accordingly. That is the MAIN point of the New Testament in layman's terms. What is so threatening about it? It is not about blindly worshipping some dictator, it is about appreciating 'the creation', which basically is code for you and me and the planet and the things we hold dear... and it is about YOU taking responsibility for the interactions that you have within this.

You conviently jump form the New Testement to the personal and miss out the 20 centurys of mayhem and chaos this plan has brought on man.

Please wake up.

If your god exists and your jesus then wake up and look for signs of your devil, try and sniff out the burning bodies.[/quote:028dd]


Guest:

...you need serious help. All the arguing you do against religion (any religion) can be easily thrown right back at you.

Can you prove that God doesn't exist? Seriously...Can you really P-R-O-V-E it? ...I didn't think so. No more than we can P-R-O-V-E he (it) does exist.

It all comes down to belief then doesn't it?

Rather than sit here and try to convince Gardner that he's full of sh*t because he happens to think something bigger than us is out there, why not accept the fact that you really don't know and that someone else having "faith" isn't going to hurt you or your precious atheism...BTW- I feel similarly to the way he does so you're essentially telling me I'm full of sh*t too...Not a good idea.

You're f*****g hung up in all the bad things that have been done in the "name of religion". Typical of people who talk like you...You choose to view the nasty things as the difining factor instead of the good things. You lump all bad things done in the name of religion (any religion) as collective condemnation of Christianity....Pathetic.

Christianity never started any wars, or created famine or pestilence. These are the forays of men...and men ONLY. If those men did such awful things in the "name of Christianity", and you BELIEVE them, then you are an ignorant dolt ...and very deserving of that ignorance I might add.

Humans are completely imperfect. Some rotten people even use religion to garner personal advantage, create pain, and supress other free thinking peoples...Does that make the religion itself a farse or the people who would prostitute it?

You know, the Bible stories are mostly that...stories. Some true, some not. I think you're quite blind if you sit there and suggest Christianity is invalid because Bible stories are always bigger than life and full of grand and unexplainable events....Dammit man, it's the MESSAGE...not the story. Don't be a dipashit here.

You really need to step away from the discussion as to wether or not God really exists...you simply can't prove anything...nor can myself or Gardner.

But we can all have f-a-i-t-h in our beliefs. I believe that Christianity is a vehicle for the good of man and that only men can bastardize it. God can't force us how to think and act. He can only suggest. If one chooses not to listen, that's up to them.

You apparantly believe that God and religion are simply bad fairy tales or something....fine. You've made your point. Can you move along now?

 

[fallicule]

I hate this post.

But if you hold Christianity and the Old Testament to be truth (as the God of Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament) Then yes, religion is directly responsible for wars, not just the people. Read Exodus through Joseph. According to that text those people acted and fought for the will of God.

If you hold Christianity to be mutually exclusive from the Old Testament then you're right, Christianity, as a faith, has not been directly responsible for wars.... but since Christianity is about the people who follow it and the ideologies of these people have led to wars, the opposite can be said with an equally valid argument -- Christianity has led to wars. It depends on how you interpret it.

It is true that not all the Bible is or has to be true to validate one's religion. It is, afterall, about faith. But it must also be considered that the Bible is the only link you really have to to the origins of your religion (unless, of course, you yourself have had a genuinly devine experience) and the Bible being full of holes and inaccuracies does do alot to discredit its own legitimacy.

Other than that I agree. It is faith and no one has the right to tell someone else what to have faith in. I certainly do not. Nor is it fair for any of us to pretend like we have all the answers to our origin. I certainly do not.

I hate this post.

 

[drinkrum]

For the love of all that is sane, will one of you mods close this fuckin' thread. The inevitable has happened -- it went from a couple posts mentioning hair loss to a full-blown theological war. Dubya would be proud ... TERR!

D.

 

[fallicule]

Yes, please get rid of this thread. Theology is not a common ground for friendly chat and I dont think the word "hairloss" or "balding" has been mentioned since the first page of this 5-page post. Allah have mercy. Get rid of it!

 

[The Gardener]

Yep, religion causes problems because it's rooted in dis-validation...

When there's more than one religion, then the simple act of someone believing in one religion undermines the validity of another religion. It has to.

No, it doesn't. Or, it shouldn't have to. I have my beliefs and they work for me. Personally, I think could find more common ground with a Muslim than I could with an Atheist when it comes to discussing the underpinnings of troubles in humanity. And, no, I am not talking about a jihadist muslim, who I would compare to ultra-strict christians who I think are missing the point in Christianity. I am talking about your everyday person of Islamic faith who lives a soulful and wholesome life.

To use an analogy, does a belief in Windows invalidate a belief in Linux? No. You use the operating system that fits best, given your applications.

 

[Red Rose]

maybe not...

 

[Hotlegs]

d/p

 

[Hotlegs]

Guest:

...you need serious help. All the arguing you do against religion (any religion) can be easily thrown right back at you.

This is true

Can you prove that God doesn't exist? Seriously...Can you really P-R-O-V-E it?

No, I cannot prove a god exists, no more than you can prove a god does exist.

It all comes down to belief then doesn't it?

Yes

Rather than sit here and try to convince Gardner that he's full of sh*t because he happens to think something bigger than us is out there, why not accept the fact that you really don't know and that someone else having "faith" isn't going to hurt you or your precious atheism...BTW- I feel similarly to the way he does so you're essentially telling me I'm full of sh*t too...Not a good idea.

BiteMe, I have a different opinion to both The Gardener and yourself (free will ) please don't interpret this as me thinking either of you are 'full of sh*t'.

You're f*****g hung up in all the bad things that have been done in the "name of religion". Typical of people who talk like you...You choose to view the nasty things as the difining factor instead of the good things.

The 'bad' things concern me, the good are just that, good, I do not believe we need rutual and mysticism to do good deads or act in others benefit.

You lump all bad things done in the name of religion (any religion) as collective condemnation of Christianity....Pathetic.

Whoa! angry man! where's your christianity, turn the other cheek (LOL), I do not believe I have even mentioned christainity.

Christianity never started any wars,

note to myself: must ignore any reference to the Peasants War 1524, The Second Christian War 1546 - 1555, the Third Christian War 1529 -1531, The Reformation in France 1560, the Fifth Christian War 1560-1567, The Reformation in England, The Thirty Years War 1618 -1648 etc etc etc etc etc etc......

or created famine or pestilence. These are the forays of men...and men ONLY. If those men did such awful things in the "name of Christianity", and you BELIEVE them, then you are an ignorant dolt ...and very deserving of that ignorance I might add.

I agree with you here, much is done in the "name of christianity" that is anything but christian. I look forward to the day when we remove the cloak of legitimacy that religion allows.

Humans are completely imperfect. Some rotten people even use religion to garner personal advantage, create pain, and supress other free thinking peoples...Does that make the religion itself a farse or the people who would prostitute it?

No, it does not make religion a farse (sic), religion does not need the torture and war and injustice and poverty and pain to be a farce.

You know, the Bible stories are mostly that...stories. Some true, some not.

How do you 'know' any are true, and before you mention it, I do not know they are false.

I think you're quite blind if you sit there and suggest Christianity is invalid because Bible stories are always bigger than life and full of grand and unexplainable events

Where have I said this? can you cut and paste where I have said this...?
Are you just making this up to bolster your point? Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor? LOL!

Dammit man, it's the MESSAGE...not the story. Don't be a dipashit here.

Not mentioned the bible, you are calling me a 'dipashit' (sic) for something I have not said, very un-christian.

You really need to step away from the discussion as to wether or not God really exists...you simply can't prove anything...nor can myself or Gardner.

Typical closed mind of the religious, is it wrong that I exercise my god given gift of free will ?

God can't force us how to think and act. He can only suggest. If one chooses not to listen, that's up to them.

Where have you got this information from that god suggests how to think and act ?

You apparantly believe that God and religion are simply bad fairy tales or something....fine. You've made your point. Can you move along now?

I believe that with religions terrible history we should at least question the core beliefs, I think it very indicitive of your kind that your final request is for the dessenters to 'move along'

do not question

do not question

do not question

believe

believe

...


wake up you f*****g idiot before any more children get set on fire.

 

[daedalus]

Yes, this thread probably has gotten out of hand. But for what it's worth, I'm glad there are a few people on this board who at least question the core concepts of religion. It gives me hope that there are some truly 'free' thinkers out there, who are not attached to beliefs and question authority and tradition.

Guest, I'm with you on this one. I am amazed how the 'devout Christians' respond with such anger when their beliefs are questioned. Religion is based on the concept of authority. Why is it so hard for people to question authority?

As for the person who said Hinduism is not a religion - yes, it can be considered a philosophy or a way of life, but at it's root it is still a religion. In fact, it is considered the oldest religion in the world.

I was raised in a traditional Hindu household, so I should know some things about it. Look at one of the fundamental principles of Hinduism - idol worship. It is completely ridiculous to think that a man made statue has some sort of divine power just because it is in the form of a 'god', an idea which has also been created by man. When you are worshipping god, you are really just worshipping a projection of yourself.

I stopped believing in all organized religions a long time ago. Please understand that I am not saying anyone is 'full of sh*t' because of their beliefs. None of us know if a god exists or not, but all I am saying is at least question authority and think for yourselves to find out what is really true.

To anyone who considers themselves a truly religious person, I challenge you to watch a documentary called 'One Giant Leap.' Or better yet, read some discussions by a philospher named Jiddu Krishnamurti. Maybe that will at least make you think about your own belief systems.

 

[The Gardener]

Daedalus, I have read Krishnamurti, and found truth in it. Personally, I find my beliefs more in line with the thinking of Joseph Campbell, another author I highly recommend.

I think I have gotten my general view across... and I don't think I am 'arguing' with anyone here or questioning their right to ask questions. On the contrary, I am merely trying to give them another side of what religion is. Many people here seem to think it is about a forced belief in some fairy tale to help explain the world. Not the case. Religion helps one find personal peace. The word Islam, for example, literally means "peace". And in the case of Christianity, a way for someone to find piece is described by accounts of someone's life that can be used as an example.

As for the various wars that have been fought and attributed to 'religion', I find this more attributable to an ingrained weakness in humans, a tribal instinct. Even if Christianity never came about, these same wars would have been fought. Methinks these wars have more to do with people's fear of other 'tribes' of people who are different than them, and a collective expression of humanity's 'fight or flee' response when confronted with such.

 

[daedalus]

Personally, I find my beliefs more in line with the thinking of Joseph Campbell, another author I highly recommend.

Haven't read anything by him, but I will check it out.

As for the various wars that have been fought and attributed to 'religion', I find this more attributable to an ingrained weakness in humans, a tribal instinct. Even if Christianity never came about, these same wars would have been fought.

Gardener, I agree with you that this is indeed attributable to an inherent weakness in humans. I am not against Christianity on its own, but all forms of authoritative, organized thought and beliefs. People look to leaders, whether they are religious, political, or spiritual leaders, to guide them and hopefully 'solve' their problems.

I truly feel that each person has to be their own leader, their own teacher, and their own student when it comes to matters of spirituality. As soon as someone identifies themselves with any religion, they have separated themselves from the rest of humankind. This in itself breeds violence.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I realize this topic of discussion can become heated, so I hope I haven't offended anyone.

 

[The Gardener]

I haven't been offended at all. I think this has been an interesting discussion.

Anyways... I'm excusing myself from this conversation now. Need to get back to the business of helping people with their hairloss...

 

[BiteMe]

Guest:

...you need serious help. All the arguing you do against religion (any religion) can be easily thrown right back at you.

This is true

Can you prove that God doesn't exist? Seriously...Can you really P-R-O-V-E it?

No, I cannot prove a god exists, no more than you can prove a god does exist.

It all comes down to belief then doesn't it?

Yes

Rather than sit here and try to convince Gardner that he's full of sh*t because he happens to think something bigger than us is out there, why not accept the fact that you really don't know and that someone else having "faith" isn't going to hurt you or your precious atheism...BTW- I feel similarly to the way he does so you're essentially telling me I'm full of sh*t too...Not a good idea.

BiteMe, I have a different opinion to both The Gardener and yourself (free will ) please don't interpret this as me thinking either of you are 'full of sh*t'.

You're f*****g hung up in all the bad things that have been done in the "name of religion". Typical of people who talk like you...You choose to view the nasty things as the difining factor instead of the good things.

The 'bad' things concern me, the good are just that, good, I do not believe we need rutual and mysticism to do good deads or act in others benefit.

You lump all bad things done in the name of religion (any religion) as collective condemnation of Christianity....Pathetic.

Whoa! angry man! where's your christianity, turn the other cheek (LOL), I do not believe I have even mentioned christainity.

Christianity never started any wars,

note to myself: must ignore any reference to the Peasants War 1524, The Second Christian War 1546 - 1555, the Third Christian War 1529 -1531, The Reformation in France 1560, the Fifth Christian War 1560-1567, The Reformation in England, The Thirty Years War 1618 -1648 etc etc etc etc etc etc......

or created famine or pestilence. These are the forays of men...and men ONLY. If those men did such awful things in the "name of Christianity", and you BELIEVE them, then you are an ignorant dolt ...and very deserving of that ignorance I might add.

I agree with you here, much is done in the "name of christianity" that is anything but christian. I look forward to the day when we remove the cloak of legitimacy that religion allows.

Humans are completely imperfect. Some rotten people even use religion to garner personal advantage, create pain, and supress other free thinking peoples...Does that make the religion itself a farse or the people who would prostitute it?

No, it does not make religion a farse (sic), religion does not need the torture and war and injustice and poverty and pain to be a farce.

You know, the Bible stories are mostly that...stories. Some true, some not.

How do you 'know' any are true, and before you mention it, I do not know they are false.

I think you're quite blind if you sit there and suggest Christianity is invalid because Bible stories are always bigger than life and full of grand and unexplainable events

Where have I said this? can you cut and paste where I have said this...?
Are you just making this up to bolster your point? Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor? LOL!

Dammit man, it's the MESSAGE...not the story. Don't be a dipashit here.

Not mentioned the bible, you are calling me a 'dipashit' (sic) for something I have not said, very un-christian.

You really need to step away from the discussion as to wether or not God really exists...you simply can't prove anything...nor can myself or Gardner.

Typical closed mind of the religious, is it wrong that I exercise my god given gift of free will ?

God can't force us how to think and act. He can only suggest. If one chooses not to listen, that's up to them.

Where have you got this information from that god suggests how to think and act ?

You apparantly believe that God and religion are simply bad fairy tales or something....fine. You've made your point. Can you move along now?

I believe that with religions terrible history we should at least question the core beliefs, I think it very indicitive of your kind that your final request is for the dessenters to 'move along'

do not question

do not question

do not question

believe

believe

...


wake up you f*****g idiot before any more children get set on fire.

Idiot??? ...yeah right. :roll:

You just don't f*****g get it do you? I could care less if you choose to think God/Religion/the Old Testament or WHATEVER is the cause of humanity's ails. I'm not telling you to believe sh*t...understand? Believe whatever the hell you want. I'm pretty sure I made that clear to you. I won't try to quash your free will to say whatever...you don't try to quash mine. I will disagree with many points you make, just as you are disagreeing with mine....In no way is this a mandate to "believe".

It appears you are incapable of seperating the *FAITH* from those whose practice it (or portend to). Seriously, can you not understand the distinction between the two? It sounds as if you can't.

For some bizzare reason you seem to think that faith leads directly to corruption, wars, and generally bad stuff...Now I know you're a dipashit. It is MEN...PEOPLE....BAD PEOPLE that are the source of your "issues" with religion. You seem incapable of recognizing this though. Men started and fought every war you listed...every f*****g one of them. If you want to sit there actually believe that somehow God mandated them, well you're just a little south of sane.

The stories and rationals behind them are nothing but history now. You and I have no REAL way of knowing precisely what mindset drove which individuals to make war. If a man writes a story that says "God told me to make war"...does that mean it MUST have happened that way? I think not. Again...seperate the man from the Faith.

The sadistic Jihadist mentality comes to mind here...Who in they're right mind would accept what they practice as anything but a corrupt, blood thirsty, bastardizing of a true faith? A simple and blatant power grab using fear as it's impetus. There is a parrallel here you would do well to look at.

The huge majority (and I mean H-U-G-E) majority of believers (Muslims, Christians, Jews, whatever) are exactly OPPOSITE of what you're suggesting. A teeny tiny fraction of people who profess "faith" are actually corrupt bastards who cause much trouble "in that name of God"...It's a sham to think otherwise, and if you can't see through that to the core of what faith is really supposed to be then I'm wasting my time here I suppose.

You know, I don't go to church that often. I don't pray as much as I prolly should. I cuss too much, party too much, and I should probably pay more attention to my folks who are getting on in years....I wonder, does this make me an example of all that is wrong with religion, or a mere mortal who believes that there must be something bigger than himself out there but is not sure what it is?

Allow reasonable people to have faith without casting aspersions upon them or their beliefs for doing so...they will allow you to have no faith and will cast none upon you. I would suggest that had you not attempted to invalidate these beliefs I would have never jumped down your throat...I would have cast no aspersions upon you...capice?

Oh well, I'm sure this all going in one ear and out the other. I'm outta here...

 

[fallicule]

"If you want to sit there actually believe that somehow God mandated them, well you're just a little south of sane."

According to your own book God did mandate war and those who refused to go to battle were to be destoryed (until Moses stepped in). It's ironic, but you probably have never read most of the book of your own faith. That's the only real problem with your "faith" I see... I don't bother to learn about it. If you really think religion never mandated a war read Leviticus through Det. (they insist otherwise).

I understand why you get so hot headed in defense of this, but not knowing about your own religion seems to me a little south of sane.

 

[Bismarck]

Marx and Lenin said it right:

Religion is opium for the people. / Religion is opium of the people.


BTW, BiteMe your attitude is commonly refered to as "fideism".

bis

 

[BiteMe]

"If you want to sit there actually believe that somehow God mandated them, well you're just a little south of sane."

According to your own book God did mandate war and those who refused to go to battle were to be destoryed (until Moses stepped in). It's ironic, but you probably have never read most of the book of your own faith. That's the only real problem with your "faith" I see... I don't bother to learn about it. If you really think religion never mandated a war read Leviticus through Det. (they insist otherwise).

I understand why you get so hot headed in defense of this, but not knowing about your own religion seems to me a little south of sane.

Allright dude...it's clear you completely missed the point of my posts. Take a breath and go re-read them.

Let me see if I can be any more clear than I already have:

You are quite correct, I have not read the entire Bible. It's a damn big book and hard to follow sometimes ya know?. I have read much of it though. I understand the major players and the themes through out it. My father in law is a pastor for a very large church. We've talked many many times about faith and the Bible and what they mean....IOW- I'm not ignorant of the book and it's word or the meaning of my own faith.

I am quite aware of the nature of the stories in the Bible. I am quite aware that it sometimes call for war "in the name of God". <-- (made this point already in my earlier posts)

I asked you all to consider the meaning of the stories in the Bible as opposed to the litteral word. <-- (made this point already in my earlier posts too)

I tried to seperate the men who wrote those stories from the faith itself. That means I don't automaticly assume that because the Bible says it a certain way, it must have been EXACTLY like that. <-- (made this point already in my earlier posts too) ...Remember that the people who wrote the Bible stories lived a MUCH LESS INFORMED time than you and I. All we can do is read their stories and take the best lessons from them...Or in your case, take the worst lessons I guess.

Honestly, I can understand why you might struggle sorting out the meaning of things in the Bible. On the one hand you have fire and brimstone and on the other you have compassion and love. One story in the book has God calling for War while another has God offering divine compassion. Which is the true reflection? I choose to look beyond the story for the meaning.

If the story says God wiped out everyone in Sodom and Gamora, what message does that send me? ..."It's wrong to lead overly decadent lives". That's the message I take from it. Perhaps you read the message as "God is a spiteful being who like to kill people."...I dunno.

I mean...Did Moses REALLY talk to a burning bush??? I have no idea. Hell, he could have been hallucinating from walking around in the desert sun for all I know. The important thing is the lesson learned from the story, not the litteral words used to express the lesson.

Did Noah really build an Arc??? I have no idea. Would have had to been an awfully big boat to hold all those animals don't you think? Again...it's the message, not the story.

No matter what justification men use ("God told me to") it is ALWAYS men who are responsible for the pain, war, and suffering...NOT the faith. <-- (made this point already in my earlier posts too)

If what I think you're suggesting is true, then anyone who believes in God (however they view him/her/it) must also believe that God's mandate for them is to convert non believers, or kill those who won't.

That is a perverse and self-invalidating philosophy. It's also the very same "philoshophy" the wacked-out Jihadis use...Now do you for a second believe that the Jihadi mentality is a *true* reflection of the Islamic faith??? ...I didn't think so. <-- (made this point already in my earlier posts too)

Most Muslims view the Jihadis as a bunch of freaks...not true believers. The same way I see Aryian Nation types...seriously screwed up people. They swear God tells them to kill in His name. Does that mean Christianity or Islam must be just as screwed up? Hell no, it means some MEN have perverted the faith to bend the world to their own desires.

Try not to let the litteral interpretations of stories written by ancient people in ancient times color your understanding of the faith itself. Try not to let the phsychotic interpretations of some of today's men similarly color your understanding of faith. None of the world's major faiths are based on pain, corruption, and suffering. These are only the playgrounds of men who wish to use God as their club.


There is a distinct difference between the religious archtype you seem hung up on and the real world people like me who just think there must be something bigger than themselvs out there.


I think that perhaps because men are completely and pitifully imperfect, you might tend to think that the faith they practice must be equally flawed...I disgree but that's obvious isn't it.

Peace dude...

 

[BiteMe]

Marx and Lenin said it right:

Religion is opium for the people. / Religion is opium of the people.


BTW, BiteMe your attitude is commonly refered to as "fideism".

bis

Hmm...you quote Marx and Lenin about religion? Ummm, yeah. Ok. That makes a lot of sense.

The founders of the worlds most suppresive form of government lecturing the rest of us on the pitfalls of religion. :roll:

Ok Bis...whatever.

 

[Bismarck]

Marx and Lenin said it right:

Religion is opium for the people. / Religion is opium of the people.


BTW, BiteMe your attitude is commonly refered to as "fideism".

bis

Hmm...you quote Marx and Lenin about religion? Ummm, yeah. Ok. That makes a lot of sense.

The founders of the worlds most suppresive form of government lecturing the rest of us on the pitfalls of religion. :roll:

Ok Bis...whatever.

Neither you understand these sentences nor you know Marx.

 

[fallicule]

Lets drop this post guys? Truce? IT's been like two weeks now... we both no noone can win this argument.

 

[BiteMe]

Holy Cow...I just wrote a freakin book here. Sorry guys, I got carried away.

Short version---> Don't believe every word in the Bible as literal truth. The real meaning lies beyond the story.
-and-
Me and a few others here apparantly have severe disagreements over how to look at what religion means to the world.


hmmm....all that condensed into 3 sentences. Musta' had too much coffee this morning.