READ READ READ.. Very Interesting POV

[Jojje]

Ok, I'll bite. I'm going to try 5mg 2x per week, for 20 weeks.

One question I have about the ultra-low dose is whether it should be continued indefinitely. I've heard that with accutane the sebacious glands shrink over time, and never return to full size. I also know it can shrink pores, which perhaps explains some of the stories about hair follicles shrinking over time.

After 20 weeks I'm going to take a break, and wait for a bit to see how oily my skin gets. Maybe this is a treatment which could be stopped after some time.

Thats greate im very interested to se how it goes, if this really works, and as you say that 1 can quit it after some usage and stil have same effect then it would be awsome.
Hope u take photos and keep posting, GL

 

[SuperMeh]

Cool,

Spinner how is your hair at the moment though? Like on the Norwood scale or whatever.

I'm really interested in this too as it sounds somewhat plausible to me, but I am not ready to try it personally, so good luck to you =] will be following your progress.

Michael

 

[spinner2]

Norwood 2 diffuse. Any hair thickening would be pretty apparent. I'll take pictures, but I'm not going to post them online unless the results are astounding.

I'll also be starting arimidex 0.25mg 3x per week at roughly the same time, so it might be hard to say where the results are coming from. For over 6 months I've been on low dose finasteride 5x per week, along with a few natural supplements to help with my general health (iodine, maca, velvet antler extract). I've been maintaining, but no regrowth.

The only question I have left is how long I ought to continue using the accutane. I guess I have a few months left to research this before it becomes relevant. For high doses they're given in cycles of 12-20 weeks or so.

 

[zack-b]

Anything new on this experiment from anyone trying it?

 

[rint]

Any updates?

 

[somone uk]

Ok I was at my GP not too long ago, an Egyptian doctor who I have been seeing for about a decade.

For the first time we spoke about my hair loss, well well fkn well.. what a surprise when that topic was brought up.

Turns out he used to work for Merck & Sharpe as a researcher back in Egypt and he was booted out for his theory on hair loss. This is no bullshit.. this guy was a fkn knowledge machine. All this time!

This is what his theory is:

DHT isn't the cause of hair loss is. Sebum is. This is why:

DHT triggers the glands in your follicle to overproduce sebum. Bacteria gathers in this overflow and your immune system then attacks the bacteria, INCLUDING the hair follicle with inflammation. He said it's very similar to the process of acne.

Propecia works by stopping the DHT triggering the sebum overflow. He said Propecia could make your hair worse if like me hyperandrogenicity causes the extra oil.

He said he proved this theory by putting an early stage patient on low dose accutane. He said the patient regrew hair. He said this is why Retinoid helps, not because it tackles DHT, but because it tackles the sebaceous gland and stops the production of sebum.. hence stopping the gathering of bacteria.. hence no inflammation and no immune response.

I also asked why some medications work and why some don't. He said in theory it should work for all, but there are 2 reasons it doesnt:

1. Internal drugs can cause hyperandrogenicity like I've experienced
2. Topical drugs don't reach the follicle BECAUSE of the sebum build up blocking it. He said minoxidil works best with retin-A not because retin-A helps hair loss through DHT, but helps the minoxidil flow down the follicle wall by eliminating sebum build up.

He said he never really gave it the years of research it deserves, but his theory is ultra-low-doses of Accutane stops hair loss. He said 10mg twice a week will do the job.

He said when he kept trying to push this idea through his experiments, Merck kicked him off the research team.

this is the kind of theory that you see in alot of snake oil treatments, it also implies that vigorous daily shampooing would slow down male pattern baldness
also if your immune system rejected your hair it would show a process more similar to Alopecia areata where the hair is just lost rather than the follicle being miniatured

 

[zack-b]

Any updates from anyone? I'm very interested in this.

 

[KANGA]

I've always thought that sebum had some role in my hair loss... my crown and temples are the oiliest part of my scalp.

I've always had oily skin, but it has only been recent (since I was 18 (<4yrs)) that my scalp has been oily.

The suggestion is to take 10mg twice weekly? Wouldn't mind stopping hair loss while getting rid of random pimples unk:

 

[Kero]

Damn, any updates?

 

[helpmyhair]

spinner? empire? lets get some updates.

 

[cuebald]

Guessing it didn't work.
Either that or it killed him :laugh:

 

[Todd]

Ok, this is my first post, but reading this post I just had to join the forum and comment.

I am a medical student, and this theory is EXTREMELY interessting. Here´s why:

The pathogenesis of hair loss is, believe it or not, relatively unknown. Most of the proven treatments that exists today, were originally used to treat other conditions, and it is through "backwards reasoning" from those treatments, that theories on Androgenetic Alopecia develop. E.x: DHT inhibition seem to have an effect, ergo DHT causes hair loss.

Research indicates three proven treatments; the first works by inhibiting DHT, wich is finasteride, the second by stimulating growth (throug EDF-1 and ATP- potassium channels if I remember correctly), wich is minoxidil.
The third kind of treatment are those that have a generally good dermatological effect: zinc, azealic acid, ketoconazole (wich also inhibits DHT), retinol- A etc.

THE INTERESTING PART, is that the dermatological factors have one thing in common, in addition to just be "good for the skin". Most of them are, (to a certain degree) anti- inflammatory.

If we accept this "ex- merck´s" theory; a model for the patogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia could be something like this (simplyfied):

DHT, leads to an icreasend production on sebum, wich causes an inflammatory process of the follicle, leading to decreased growth. (DHT-INFLAMMATION-FOLLICLE GROWTH REDUCTION)

Thus, we have three "attack points" for pharmaceutical intervention: 1. inhibit DHT altoghether (finasteride, dutasteride, ketoconazole). 2. continously stimulating hair growth (minoxidil), or 3. inhibit inflammation altoghether. Little research has been done on the anti- inflammatory effects.

If, by completely removing the sebum, you will neutralize the inflammatory process of the hair follicle, this will stop hair loss IF THE THEORY IS CORRECT.

On the other hand...
- azelaic acid and ketoconazole does by itself inhibit DHT, and the dermatological benefits may therefor not be relevant for treating Androgenetic Alopecia.
-zinc, although anti- inflammatory, is also a hair growth stimulator, only weaker than minoxidil.
-Of all the proven treatments, the dermatological ones are the ones that shows the least effect.


Just had to share my thoughts with you guys.

 

[Bryan]

The pathogenesis of hair loss is, believe it or not, relatively unknown. Most of the proven treatments that exists today, were originally used to treat other conditions, and it is through "backwards reasoning" from those treatments, that theories on Androgenetic Alopecia develop. E.x: DHT inhibition seem to have an effect, ergo DHT causes hair loss.

Read the first line of my signature file below!

The existence of DHT as a negative factor for scalp hair growth has been known for a long time before finasteride was ever developed. I personally have in my possession a copy of a study that was published in (if I recall correctly) 1974. It describes the efforts of some scientists who measured DHT levels in both balding and non-balding scalp hair follicles, showing that they were concerned about that issue AT LEAST as early as 1974, and probably even earlier (I believe DHT was discovered sometime in the 1960's).

If we accept this "ex- merck´s" theory; a model for the patogenesis of Androgenetic Alopecia could be something like this (simplyfied):

DHT, leads to an icreasend production on sebum, wich causes an inflammatory process of the follicle, leading to decreased growth. (DHT-INFLAMMATION-FOLLICLE GROWTH REDUCTION)

I wouldn't put too much stock in that theory, if I were you. Finasteride has no effect on sebum levels, yet certainly helps inhibit the balding process.

 

[Todd]

I wasn´t aware that DHT was proposed as a cause for Androgenetic Alopecia as early as the 70s. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Personally, I´m on the big three and it´s working great.

What IS interesting, though, is the use of anti- inflammatory agents to treat Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[squeegee]

bUMP for a good thread!! unk: Still waiting for my accutane by the mail so I can start the experiment. f*** the haters! I believe in trying something new, thinking outside the box...

 

[dpdr]

Aloe Vera is an extremely high anti-inflammatory

 

[oofah]

Squeegee, i'm curious to see how accutane works for you. I've just started using 6 -8 mg of pantothenic daily due to it's reported ability to reduce oil and acne. I have no acne but a very oily face. If I don't see a difference (less inflammation) in a couple weeks then I may start accutane.

 

[Bryan]

I've just started using 6 -8 mg of pantothenic daily due to it's reported ability to reduce oil and acne.

Wow, you're taking 6 -8 milligrams of pantothenic acid daily?? That's less than the RDA (Recommended Daily Allowance) for that vitamin!

 

[Hair101]

Let me share my experience with Accutane, hope this will bring some insight for those looking into this regime...

I have been a diffuse thinner ever since high school (6 years ago), and I only know this because that was when my friends started commenting on my thinning hair. It never really bothered me until about 2 or 3 years ago when it became very noticeable, but since there's no family history of hair loss (all of my grandparents barely have any hair loss) I conveniently ruled out the possibility of hereditary male pattern baldness, and thus never considered using minoxidil or finasteride related meds. At the time I started having severe acne, and after trying many medications with no success, I reluctantly started on high doses of Accutane under the direction of my doctor. The medication started working literally within hours (dried lips, nosebleed), and by the end of the first week I felt like a totally different person. My acne was disappearing, I stopped having oily skin, but the most surprising effect of Accutane was that it had stopped excess sebum production on my scalp. I could easily go 3 or 4 days without washing my hair and it would still look great and smell great, whereas before I couldn't last half a day without my hair becoming flat and oily again.
3 months later I had to be off Accutane as it's unsafe to be taking it continuously for long durations at that dosage. My hair still looked great, and it was noticeably denser than when I just started the med. I didn't think it was due to the medication at that time, but in retrospect I started to think that Accutane had played a big part in stopping the thinning, more specifically it's ability to heavily reduce sebum production. I started thinning again about half a year later after the Accutane effect had started wearing off, and coincidentally the scalp sebum production was back full blown...
Taking high doses of Accutane for short durations is probably a very effective cure for acne, but what about taking low doses of it for a longer duration of time to keep the sebum production in check while promoting a suitable environment for hair regrowth?

I would love to hear from people who has similar experience with Accutane or other drugs/supplements which reduces sebum.

 

[oofah]

Well you can never be too safe

6-8 grams!