questions for harie about starting strength

[roki]

so ive decided to go ahead with it ,im gonna read up again tonight and tommorrow ill ask one of the gym guys to show me how to do the exercises
maybe you could give me some tips...
my questions are : if im suppose to do only 5 reps and i should do it with the maximum weight i can wont i need someone to watch the barbell for me all the time? i think if not i could get injured or fall or something .

how sore should i expect to be at the first few workouts?

my lower back isnt at top condition i think i should really look out for injury and im not sure that the trainer in the gym will teach me so good...

anyway if you have any suggestions or stuff i should know
thanx harie

 

[CCS]

yes, you need someone spotting you unless you are on a machine. But if I don't get a spotter, I have in the past rested the bar on my lower abs, sat up, and put the bar back. You can't do that though if your bench press muscles are the only ones you every work, because then the weight will be too much for your other muscles to handle.

 

[roki]

i always use someone for the bench i was actually wondering about the squat and the military press

 

[Harie]

Start out with light weight and work your way up. I ran the program for 10 weeks without a spotter. The only time I thought I'd fail, I put the weight down on the 4th rep (bench).

You definitely need to start out at a lighter weight. If you know you can bench 135lbs 5 times, start out with 20 or 30lbs less to get your body accustom to lifting again. If you start out light, (it should take approx 4 weeks or more, to start lifting heavier than you did before) you shouldn't be too sore.

If your old max lifts were set a long time ago, you should definitely start out very light and judge from your 1st workout. It's better to look like a wimp squatting for the first workout to get a feel for the weights and exercises than try to be GI-Joe and lift maximal weights, only to fail.

Oh, last tip - eat a lot! Take a protein shake before lifting, and another one after lifting.

 

[roki]

thanks alot Harie,i do eat alot and drink alot of protein
today i was at the gym and asked the gym dude to go throgh the progrem with me ,first he try is hardest for about 10 minuts to tell me how thid progrem is bad for me and that i shouldnt do it,this was real annoying at the end he showed me how to do it ,im gonna have to practice the movements alot
hopefullly
my lower back isnt wonderfull so im thinking of using a belt ,although kethnabb seems to be against it

 

[s.a.f]

Use a smith machine if you dont have a spotter.

 

[Jm0311]

dont go to failure on all sets

 

[CCS]

Now for safety issues, like with the squat, yeah, don't go to failure.

For every other exercise, it is OK to as long as you are not doing your whole body and you are only doing 3 sets total per muscle group. It is common sense. There is an optimal amount of muscle tear down to get. And to get there, you can do a few intense sets, or a lot of non intense sets. Going to failure means more intensity which means you need to do fewer sets. The while non failure sets are nice, they burn up almost as much energy as failure sets, but don't tear nearly as much muscle, and they take away energy so you can't do intense sets. Do the intense ones first, and if you need just a little more tearing, then you can do the ones that don't go to failure. I do 3 sets each to failure, and my bench press went up 15 pounds in a week.

 

[Harie]

Roki - if you listen to Keethnab, you will be just fine. I'd venture to guess that most personal trainers wouldn't like this program. Most personal trainers are idiots though and have no clue. I think it's the squats and dead lifts they don't like. Personal trainers are all about biceps, triceps and chest.

Since you are still a beginner, it's nearly impossible to overtrain, especially on this program. Plus, since you'll be increasing weight sort of slow over the weeks, your body will get used to what you're doing and will recover quicker. I was sore for the first week or 2, but after that, my body adapted and I was never sore again.

When I ran it, I went the entire 10 weeks and never failed once. I had a set here and there (usually squats) where I came very close to failing, but it never happened. You'll be surprised at how quickly your strength will increase. You'll look back in disbelief at how weak you were when you started, and how you were worried for no reason.

About your back - start out light and judge your tolerance accordingly. If using a belt makes you feel more confident, then it's not a bad idea. You can also add in hypers for low back once a week if you feel that the dead lifts, squats and Pendlay rows aren't hitting it enough.

Are you going to post a lifting journal on BB.com? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=66

 

[Harie]

Use a smith machine if you dont have a spotter.

The Smith machine is a POS. It locks your muscles into 1 path and takes away the stabilization aspect of the exercise. Yes, your muscles will get bigger, but if you tried to do real squats/bench etc at the same weight, you'd probably fall on your butt...Since the muscles that add stability weren't worked ever.

dont go to failure on all sets

Starting Strength does not have a lifter going to failure on all sets. It's pretty tough to fail on all sets when you're only doing 3x5. You will fail here and there. As long as it's on the 5th rep, or even 4th rep, of only 1 set, you're ok. If your failure looks like this, 5,5,4 OR 5,4,5(reps completed), you can add another 5lbs next workout day and see what happens. Odds are that the next workout, even with the added 5lbs, you will complete all reps/sets. If you don't, lower weight and repeat the next workout. If you fail again, you need to reset.

After you've reset one time, the next time you fail and can not add 5lbs per workout, it's time to do a new workout routine, or just change that exercise up.

 

[joseph49853]

Yep, most personal trainers are a joke, and the smith press is a waste of an otherwise good movement. Otherwise, I'd recommend using the Internet for proper lifting knowledge, and the squat, over those things.

Although, many people never grow large or proportional simply because they waste their time focusing on small, yet glamorous, muscles like the bicep, instead of larger muscle groups... like the traps, quads and pecs. And the only way to hit those large muscles is through compound exercises. These compound exercises being multi-jointed also take these smaller muscle groups for a ride. You can literally change your body-type in just six months doing nothing but compound exercises even.

But overall, I personally wouldn't tell a weightlifting newbie to workout a body part more than twice a week, just due to the risk of injury alone. Good rest is just as important as great exertion and intensity. The first six months to year of lifting, I'd probably tell him/her to focus more on perfecting form on the most basic movements, and building a solid foundation. I've never had a single weightlifting injury in more than fifteen years of lifting, just following this advice. And simply know your limits, and realize tomorrow is another lifting opportunity... simple common sense stuff. And most importantly, have fun, cause when done right, it is just that.

 

[roki]

i think im gonna have to get someone to coach me for few times before starting this program ,i dont feel like im doing it right and i had allready an injury in my lower back and in my shoulder in the past ,its just not woth the risk ,only problem now is where do i find someone good to coach me...

 

[Harie]

But overall, I personally wouldn't tell a weightlifting newbie to workout a body part more than twice a week, just due to the risk of injury alone.

As long as you lift correctly, you should never injure yourself, barring an unforseen gym accident...Even when lifting multiple times per week for the same muscle group. Russian power lifters can squat 4 and 5x/week and they don't get injured, and aren't overtrained either. They can do this because their form is perfect and nutrition is spot on.

Starting Strength only has you doing squats 3x/week to build a solid base. Since a newb can recover quickly and add weights quickly, Starting Strength takes advantage of this. Once you've been lifting for a year, there's no way you could add 15lbs/week to your squat...Unless you were juicing. Why not take advantage of your newb-ness and maximize your strength gains?

Of course, this is all dependant on proper form etc. If your form sucks, you'll get injured. There are many great videos on the net showing proper lifting technique for all lifts. After watching the videos and practicing with light weight, if you're still in doubt, see if you can find a power lifter that competes. They'll have near perfect form for squat, bench and dead lift. The other exercises are much harder to mess up. I mean, how hard is it to do full ROM curls?

 

[joseph49853]

This is where you lose me Harie. A beginner doesn't have the exercise tolerance or recovery capability of even an intermediate. And I certainly would never advise a starting weightlifter follow the rigorous and complex routines of the professional or elite athlete. In fact, more is simply not better in weightlifting, overall. It leads to repetitive stress in those overworked muscles (joints, tendons, ligaments, nerves, bones) which eventually compounds into far greater injuries. These injuries can eventually exacerbate into the realm of the chronic and unrecoverable.

And this is me speaking from the practical experience of many years of weightlifting/bodybuilding. In that time, I have seen many an overly-enthusiastic friend and acquaintance fall by the wayside... sidelined indefinitely due to injury. These were the ones who only had need for quick short-term solutions, and underestimated the long-term importance or rest and recovery, and its role in the repair, building, and maintenance of the human body.

However, I would recommend to a beginner: a) always try to maintain the 100 percent framework of strict/proper form (quality over quantity) b) train no more than 4-5 days a week c) train no more than two days in a row d) workout no more than 45-60 minutes per day e) use periodization: low reps/high weight for strength, high reps/low weight for not only muscle endurance, but to reinforce proper form and optimal flexibility, and to protect your joints/ligaments/tendons... also, mix up your exercises and routines after several months to avoid stagnation, and/or overtraining f) split upper and lower body only to avoid overtraining overlapping groups g) utilize compound exercises as the foundation of your entire routine, and finally h) resting properly takes just as much preparation, work, and knowledge; in other words, train hard, rest even harder.

 

[Harie]

This is where you lose me Harie. A beginner doesn't have the exercise tolerance or recovery capability of even an intermediate.

A beginner's muscles have no idea what being overworked/overtrained is. Thus, a beginner could pound the hell out of their bicep (I picked a non-core muscle, since core muscles can take much more training before becoming overtrained) 3x a week for much longer than an advanced lifter could before they would be overtrained.

I've seen a log of an intermediate lifter lifting every muscle group EOD (he was trying to become overtrained to see how long it took) and it took him 6 weeks to do it...The only reason he knew he was overtrained was because he hurt his shoulder from lack of rest. He basically lifted shoulders 6 days in a row for 6 weeks (since back/shoulder/chest exercises use shoulder strength). The rest of his muscles kept on gaining strength though.

And I certainly would never advise a starting weightlifter follow the rigorous and complex routines of the professional or elite athlete

Starting Strength is not a program that's made for an intermediate or advanced lifter. It's geared toward a new lifter, and as such, takes advantage of the great strength and weight gains that can be achieved due to no/minimal lifting experience.

It's also not complex. If you can count to 5 and know how to bench, squat, dead lift, military press and row, that's as complex as the program gets. You're in and out of the gym in under 45 minutes 3 times/week, which is very doable by almost anyone.

Mark Rippetoe and Bill Star are pretty much the most famous strength coaches there are. It's their goal to take new lifters, or relatively new lifters, and pack the muscle/strength on them ASAP. Obviously, they've designed their programs not to hurt lifters, since that would be counter productive.

You make it seem like I'm advocating a program that I came up with that has people lifting 7 days a week. I'm wondering if you read the program writeup? If not, you should because it answers every single question there is about this program.

 

[roki]

yes i have to admit it all makes sense ,i kept reading the writup and i found answers to all the "problems" with the program the gym guy said
i was quite surprised though because this is the best gym guy in the gym his actually amature bodybuilder and he won 3rd and 4th place in a couple of contasts

 

[Harie]

"problems" with the program the gym guy said

What problems did he say there were? Not enough curls? Can't resist poking fun at all the curl junkies I see every day in the gym.

 

[roki]

"problems" with the program the gym guy said

What problems did he say there were? Not enough curls? Can't resist poking fun at all the curl junkies I see every day in the gym.

he said noobs should start with machines(although i have worked out a year in the past)
he said the exercises arent orginized corectly and he said its too much to learn 4 complex exersises at once(squt deadlift pendlay rows ,military press)
he also said that this program wont give me any mass but only strength
the guy is well devopled though ,not hugh or anything but still very impresive(as well as ugly :lol

 

[IBM]

Harie do you still niddle your scalp?

 

[Harie]

Harie do you still niddle your scalp?

Yes, I do.