Question on where T>DHT conversion takes place

[el_duterino]

Does anyone know exectly where in the body the Testoresteron to DHT conversion takes place ?
Is it in the hair follicules or somehwere else ?
thanks

 

[BARCA]

I think in the follicle

 

[Bryan]

Hair follicles, sebaceous glands, the prostate, the liver, the kidneys, the brain (?) (I'm probably leaving out a few others)...

 

[el_duterino]

Bryan, thanks.
So we can question the effectiveness of dutasteride topical, knowing that T>DHT conversion takes place all over the body, and that all this DHT finds its way to the blood vessels and then to the scalp.
We can even assume that the skin and scalp outside the male pattern baldness areas is also doing the conversion but those areas would be missed out from a topical application.
Once DHT reaches the male pattern baldness scalp zone nothing can stop it unless we use Flutamide, ASC-j9 (or something similar).

Any thoughts ?

El Duternino

 

[Bryan]

So we can question the effectiveness of dutasteride topical, knowing that T>DHT conversion takes place all over the body, and that all this DHT finds its way to the blood vessels and then to the scalp.

Nope. I've argued for years on hairloss sites that serum DHT has only a relatively minor effect on hair follicles. For an explanation of why I feel that way, see the thread "Local vs Sytemic DHT" in the "New Research, Studies, and Discoveries" forum. I've just been posting in that thread recently, so it's up near the top. You'll find it easily.

.

 

[el_duterino]

Bryan, thanks. So you are saying that:
What we measure as "scalp DHT" is only the DHT created in the scalp, and that DHT created in other body organs does not make it to the scalp, and does not increase it.

If that is correct, the second question is how can we effectively inhibit 100 % of the scalp DHT conversion. I mean, do we need a CONTINUOUS application of a finasteride/dutasteride topical ?
I suppose that applying a finasteride/dutasteride topical once a day would not be sufficient since it will work for a few hours only (or even less ?) .

At least taking finasteride/dutasteride internally does inhibit a good amount of scalp DHT in a continuous fashion over the day since the drug stays in the blood in sufficient amounts all the time.
Any thoughts ?

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, thanks. So you are saying that:
What we measure as "scalp DHT" is only the DHT created in the scalp, and that DHT created in other body organs does not make it to the scalp, and does not increase it.

Well, not significantly, anyway. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the relatively small amount that may get there from other tissues.

BTW, I've never been particularly interested in so-called "scalp DHT", for the simple reason that there's more than just one source of DHT, even in the scalp! For example, sebaceous glands are certainly a rich source of the 5a-reductase type 1 enzyme, and they produce lots of DHT. In fact, I've read that _most_ of the DHT in a scalp biopsy actually comes from the type 1 enzyme (probably from sebaceous glands). I've always been puzzled about why there's so much interest in so-called "scalp DHT" on hairloss sites. That concept doesn't really narrow it down very much to the hair follicles! What should really be the object of interest on hairloss sites, in my opinion, should be follicular DHT, not "scalp DHT".

If that is correct, the second question is how can we effectively inhibit 100 % of the scalp DHT conversion.

WOW. You want to suppress 100% of DHT in the scalp?? You really aim HIGH, don't you?

I mean, do we need a CONTINUOUS application of a finasteride/dutasteride topical ? I suppose that applying a finasteride/dutasteride topical once a day would not be sufficient since it will work for a few hours only (or even less ?) .

Well, this is all getting complicated. You're forgetting that both finasteride and dutasteride are considered to be irreversible inhibitors of 5a-reductase, so you're not necessarily going to need a continuous exposure to those inhibitors to get a very significant suppression of DHT. In fact, blood levels of finstaride drop by about an order of magnitude over the course of a day, when you're taking a single dose once a day.

But yeah, if you're going to try to get MASSIVE suppression of DHT like close to 100%, you're probably going to have to have some serious around-the-clock exposure to the drugs. Certainly with finasteride.

At least taking finasteride/dutasteride internally does inhibit a good amount of scalp DHT in a continuous fashion over the day since the drug stays in the blood in sufficient amounts all the time.
Any thoughts ?

Again, the level of finasteride in the blood drops by about an order of magnitude over the course of the day, when you take a single dose per day. Check out this graph:

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/7561/fin5bfx1.jpg
(blood concentrations of finasteride during 24 hours)

You need to keep in mind that the scale in that graph is logarithmic, so the blood level of finastide is dropping even faster than what it may appear to be doing in that graph at first glance.

 

[el_duterino]

Bryan, thanks for you reply.
I am aiming at 100% scalp reduction, my sense after being 10+ years on these anti-androgene drugs, is that even a small amount of DHT is enough to continue thinning, once we get into the advanced stage of hairloss.

Looking at your graphs, finasteride is indeed getting eliminated quickly. One of the reason I stopped using finasteride 4 years ago, and switched to dutasteride is that dutasteride has a longer half-life and therefore provides a more stable and continuous DHT suppression over the day. dutasteride is simply a better drug for hairloss just because of that.
The other approach as you wrote, would be to take a 1/4 piece cut from 5mg of Proscar , every 6 hours. A bit of a pain but I wonder if that would yield better results than a single dose of 0.5 of dutasteride per day.
If we could suppress follicular DHT by 100%, hairloss would be cured, provided we start early enough.

I think that most people on these boards do not understand how just a small amount of DHT can have a negative impact on the results, especially at the most DHT sensitive areas such as the hairline.

I use Flutagel on those areas since I don't want to increase the dutasteride dosage because of the side-effects.
I guess I could try to add topical finasteride to those areas as well, but I am very happy with the results from Flutamide so far.

Cheers
El Duterino

 

[abcdefg]

It still makes no sense to me why we lower dht only to raise testosterone and estrogen levels. We know DHT binds with 10X more affinity to the androgen receptor as we have read countless times and we know testosterone also binds to the receptor. So its a fact that testosterone causes some degree of hairloss and it should slightly increase even when dht is removed because testosterone is still carrying on. The creator of revivogen has said that since propecia has come out science has learned that type 1 is actually very important and not just type 2. If someone could make something to completely remove testosterone, and dht we should theoretically completely stop male pattern baldness for everyone since androgens are in theory totally responsible for hairloss. Well estrogen is in there too and no one understands what that does although more is generally thought of as good.

I personally think anyone taking dutasteride is kind of stupid given the critical areas of the body where large amounts of dht are found, and given we do not know what that dht is even doing. I mean its a very simplified view but at the basic level thats the truth of it we really have no clue in the world why dht type 1 is found near the brain or what it is doing there. Does it really make any logical sense to change something we have no clue about somewhere as critical as the brain?

 

[Bryan]

It still makes no sense to me why we lower dht only to raise testosterone and estrogen levels.

A sharp decline in DHT is FAR more significant than a slight increase in testosterone.

 

[abcdefg]

Bryan you say this:
For example, sebaceous glands are certainly a rich source of the 5a-reductase type 1 enzyme, and they produce lots of DHT

If thats the case then why is finasteride so successful and why does no one use type 1 enzyme inhibitors?

 

[el_duterino]

Finasteride so successful ?
Lets face it, finasteride just buys a few years and slows down hairloss at best, by reducing a partial amount of type 2 DHT.

Even Bryan gave up using finasteride.

To stop hairloss you need to block or reduce all DHT type 1 and 2 and testosterone, or/and destroy all the andorgen receptors all the time, or constantly target events subsequent to ligand binding, in order to inhibit the AR.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan you say this:
For example, sebaceous glands are certainly a rich source of the 5a-reductase type 1 enzyme, and they produce lots of DHT

If thats the case then why is finasteride so successful and why does no one use type 1 enzyme inhibitors?

Because sebaceous glands aren't in the hair follicle. They're nearby, but they're not IN the follicle. The DHT they produce doesn't have a direct effect on the follicle, although it may have a relatively mild indirect one.

 

[Mane Man]

Hey Guys,

IMO all this talk of drastically reducing levels of DHT in the body and mega-dosing with finasteride etc is just crazy!
The DHT hormone is in your body for a reason, and as many people who have used DHT blockers (incl. me) find out its there for an important reason.
The most concerning thing about it is the amount of people who report that finasteride use has left their hormones unbalanced, causing permanent sides.

Anyway people considering using finasteride should realise that most people will have some side effects from using finasteride. Remember DHT is powerfull hormone its vitally important fo your libido, your mood, your muscle tone etc. (3 or 4 times stronger than testosterone), so among other things your libido will almost certainly drop. Merc must have being doing the trials on a group of plastic dummies to have found so few side-effects. Lucky myself and the only three blokes i personally know to take finasteride wernt in the study.
However it is true the effects of low DHT will differ depending on how well your body copes with its reduction.



There ive got it out :crazy: . True though your over a barrell with this Bx#*h of hairloss so feel free to call me a nutjob whos got juiced up on d finasteride once to often :mrgreen: but at least consider gettin some blood testing done first..

:agree:

 

[medmax84]

It still makes no sense to me why we lower dht only to raise testosterone and estrogen levels. We know DHT binds with 10X more affinity to the androgen receptor as we have read countless times and we know testosterone also binds to the receptor. So its a fact that testosterone causes some degree of hairloss and it should slightly increase even when dht is removed because testosterone is still carrying on. The creator of revivogen has said that since propecia has come out science has learned that type 1 is actually very important and not just type 2. If someone could make something to completely remove testosterone, and dht we should theoretically completely stop male pattern baldness for everyone since androgens are in theory totally responsible for hairloss. Well estrogen is in there too and no one understands what that does although more is generally thought of as good.

I personally think anyone taking dutasteride is kind of stupid given the critical areas of the body where large amounts of dht are found, and given we do not know what that dht is even doing. I mean its a very simplified view but at the basic level thats the truth of it we really have no clue in the world why dht type 1 is found near the brain or what it is doing there. Does it really make any logical sense to change something we have no clue about somewhere as critical as the brain?

I'm sorry... you want to inhibit testosterone? Am I understanding this correctly? The predominant male hormone is something you're willing to trade for a few locks of hair?

While DHT has a limited role in the male body, testosterone has far more systemic effects. The "side effects" would be in the same order of magnitude as the hair loss remedy. It would be bad.