Phoney Incels Who Just Think They Are Ugly

[IdealForehead]

For example, on cold approach stats, here are Krauser PUA's stats which he is open about sharing:

https://krauserpua.com/2016/01/02/my-2015-daygame-stats/

Caveats to considering his data:
- He is hitting on much younger women than him which makes it slightly harder.
- However, he is also travelling to impoverished countries (Roosh game) to elevate his status, which makes it slightly easier.
- He runs a PUA business, so he has an incentive to pad his numbers a bit, but I believe they are probably roughly correct.

In 2015 he claims a 2% f*** rate from cold day game approach.

This is Krauser:

Of note to the forum, he's a baldie, but seems like a good height white guy with average facial structure.

PUA and daygame are both incredibly time consuming. If anyone is interested in doing cold approach, I would actually still recommend night clubs over daygame solely because you can hit on WAY more girls in 2-3 hours at night clubs than you can during the day. You can blast through 20 girls (10 sets of two) in one night without even trying. If you push it and go to a few venues, you could theoretically do 40 girls (20 sets of two) if you're dedicated.

It is very difficult to do that number of cold approaches with daygame in the same time frame because it's hard to find that concentrated of a population of women to hit on during the day and everyone can hear your approaches (whereas in nightclubs no one hears anything so you just look "social" as long as you don't get blown off too terribly).

But if you assume that Krauser's results are "typical" for a guy with a lot of experience at this, and expect maybe half that (1% rate), that means at least 3 nights out at night clubs hitting on 40 girls each night (which I have never come close to - that's a LOT of sets to run in one night) before you can guarantee getting sex.

Factor in an Uber ride to and from the club each time ($20 each way), at least $10 on cover charges, maybe $20 on drinks, three hours at the clubs each time, an hour "getting ready" each time, the disruption to your schedule, plus the time to follow up on texting numbers you might get to try to then follow up for a date, then possible another date and/or sex, and it is INCREDIBLY inefficient.

You're looking at a minimum of 16 hours of clubbing and $210 of club related expenses, plus dating expenses and time trying to set up dates. Even at minimum wage, it's cheaper and faster to buy a hooker. Of course a hooker is a different "experience" which is undesirable for other reasons, but just in principle, this should illustrate how inefficient this whole approach is.

This is why people just sit at home and send messages or swipe with online dating. It may not be efficient either, but it's one hell of a lower level commitment. And if you're good looking, it's easy as f***. Easy as ordering a pizza.

 

[IdealForehead]

The alternatives would have been so much more time-consuming and erratic. I still went out with my friends on the week-end and usually, all I got was a sloppy make-out on the dancefloor that led nowhere. I'd go home drunk, wondering why I didn't leave earlier and I'd feel like sh*t for the whole next day.

And as you say, Tinder becomes easy as f*** if you meet the required looks threshold. As I used to say, whenever I blew my load inside a girl, it didn't matter if I had met her on Tinder, it still felt pretty authentic. There's no point making your (dating) life more difficult on purpose if you don't have to.

I would go out to clubs still despite the time consuming nature if I could get anything like makeouts or dancefloor grinding consistently. But it's even lower yield when all you do is go out to have girls give you one word disinterested answers when you try to talk to them and maybe 10-20% of your attempts will even basically converse with you. After a while it's just demoralizing. There are a thousand better ways to spend your time.

I'm too unattractive for Tinder so unless my hair surgery changes things dramatically for me in a few months (unlikely realistically), hookers and sugar babies are my final frontier.

Probably I'll be finding out this summer if what you said about Tinder dates and the "authenticity" of the experience will apply to hookers as well. I am genuinely curious if it will.

Btw you're probably the only one of the regular "good looking" posters on this site who actually has the self awareness and awareness of others to actually get what it's like to not be attractive. Which I find refreshing to be honest. I've met so few good looking guys in my life that have that capacity. So cheers to that.

 

[IdealForehead]

Good post idealforehead but since I can't understand you, you can't understand me either. When I was in my late teens and early 20s, social media was in its infancy and there were a few platforms like myspace or hi5. I would get a lot of views for my profile repeatedly with the intention for me to view them back. I'd get over 5 messages directly from girls per day, how are you, numbers e.t.c.. These were days when social media was less active too. It wasn't hard to get laid and in fact, boring.

I found better quality girls in real life in every way: looks, undamaged, loyal, intelligence and I enjoyed the process of getting to know them. So you're obsessed with numbers but that's not me, just the way I am. Dating girls I knew in real life provided lasting connections as opposed to online. That's like dating an ONS girl to me almost.

And daygame may be hard but it's more rewarding to me say on a train or park. In a night club it's easy to get a girl, like you say, the girls are not inhibited, that's even better for me as they are more expressive. Now that I'm older it should be different but I still look early to mid 20s plus girls like older good looking guys too. I was in a relationship for almost the past year but when I wasn't I had some good nights.

On a night out I accidentally bumped into a pretty girl near the toilets and apologised, she replied "no it's completely okay" in a submissive way. After I saw her later, we were dancing very closely, feeling one another, drunk and kissing, with her singing into my ear "take my anywhere, anywhere with you" as Rita Ora remix was blaring. Or the girl who approached me in the smoking area outside (socialising part) and wrote her number all over my arm and I went back in the club like that. Or my ex's friend who saw me in a bar and said you're still looking good and we drank together, caught up - I would never hit on her. In the midst of these are my friends and we're constantly laughing about everything. Pre sessions followed by 1-2 top ups in the club. I did this a lot in my youth but it's nice to "feel free" at any age, even if it's once a week sort of thing.

This is what I call life, this is living for me. Expecting the unexpected, the spontaneity, the thrill, the authentic experience. It's not about numbers online and swiping mediocre girls hmm yes she looks okay aesthetically, she's a 6, she might accept me, I'll swipe, all while sitting in my room waiting. So boring for me. I know 1-2 guys on it and they date on it and one is kinda average, the other below. Just find looks match girls.

Socialising with everyone is way more fun. Finally, as you say, each to their own.

It's not about "each to his own". Almost any man would kill for the experiences you describe. I certainly would and I've tried. Those things are simply not possible for me.

You're living on God mode. Women f*****g worship you the way we as men crave women. They comparatively don't give a sh*t about guys like me.

You make it sound like a choice. As if you chose to be so handsome girls would just message you on your MySpace profile and I chose to be so ugly no one responds to me no matter how I set up my profiles.

Almost no one would choose anything other than your lifestyle if it was a choice. The stuff you describe is a life of fantasy. Of course you enjoy it. Any man would. That shouldn't be hard to figure out.

 

[IdealForehead]

Worship and God mode are terms popular on certain forums it seems. Wouldn't say it's accurate. Find me attractive, yes, without the full hair I'd be in trouble. Still would look attractive according to feedback on here and some in real life, but not like now. Apparently I'd lose a point. That can make or break though.

To an extent it's still about each to their own - at least in some people's cases. Those 2 guys I told you who are on Tinder, well one is an average looking tall full head. When he tells me he's going to see a girl, he's smiling embarrassed almost as he says "yes another Tinder date." Yet his best moments were when he dated a girl he knew from his town for years which he called off in the end. I notice he gets a little bit of attention on a night out but not much, yet there have been moments and he's happier for it even if the girl is not very pretty. Now that he has a balance between Tinder and engaging real people, he's better for it. Without that full head though he would be fucked even in his late 20s.

And I rarely see someone (if ever) who is so ugly they stand out in a club/bar. You may be being hard on yourself.

I give absolutely zero fucks about how I look for my own personal opinion. What I look like means almost nothing to me for me alone. I am mildly curious what I will look like with a proper hairline, since I've never had one before. But I'm not doing all this ridiculous surgery and experimental chemical treatment for my own self perception.

I am doing it to try to get better results and treatment by women. I already have everything else I want in life which i was able to attain without the benefit of looks. But this is a brick wall I am up against in my current condition.

The fact that you're an ~8/10 and say losing a point would be life changing and "make or break" for you is absolutely hilarious in the context of how dismissive you are of how hard it is for a 5'7" guy with a 3-4/10 face. It seems you are only selectively oblivious.

A short 3-4/10 face guy doesn't stand out in a nightclub. He's invisible. I'm invisible. I can barely get girls to acknowledge me for 10 seconds unless I'm with a handsome friend. And yes alcohol disinhibits women which makes them easier for guys like you and more awful to guys like me.

We are living life on the opposite ends of female perception and reaction.

 

[Baldingat188]

I give absolutely zero fucks about how I look for my own personal opinion. What I look like means almost nothing to me for me alone. I am mildly curious what I will look like with a proper hairline, since I've never had one before. But I'm not doing all this ridiculous surgery and experimental chemical treatment for my own self perception.

I am doing it to try to get better results and treatment by women. I already have everything else I want in life which i was able to attain without the benefit of looks. But this is a brick wall I am up against in my current condition.

The fact that you're an ~8/10 and say losing a point would be life changing and "make or break" for you is absolutely hilarious in the context of how dismissive you are of how hard it is for a 5'7" guy with a 3-4/10 face. It seems you are only selectively oblivious.

A short 3-4/10 face guy doesn't stand out in a nightclub. He's invisible. I'm invisible. I can barely get girls to acknowledge me for 10 seconds unless I'm with a handsome friend. And yes alcohol disinhibits women which makes them easier for guys like you and more awful to guys like me.

We are living life on the opposite ends of female perception and reaction.

Interesting because I'm the opposite of you. I care about my hair and apperence for me , I could care less about the women / dating. It's a nice by product of looking good , but ultimately I take finasteride for me.

 

[blackg]

View attachment 76889

Again, you made a worthwhile post. Well done.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I give absolutely zero fucks about how I look for my own personal opinion. What I look like means almost nothing to me for me alone. I am mildly curious what I will look like with a proper hairline, since I've never had one before. But I'm not doing all this ridiculous surgery and experimental chemical treatment for my own self perception.

I am doing it to try to get better results and treatment by women. I already have everything else I want in life which i was able to attain without the benefit of looks. But this is a brick wall I am up against in my current condition.

Agreed 100%. It is hard for me to take seriously people who say "I want to look good for me." It does sound like a nauseating cope, doesn't it?

Things I do for myself:
- Travel
- Read about history
- Watch movies
- Listen to music
- Enjoy fancy food
- Etc

basically all hobbies. If staring at yourself in the mirror is a hobby, however, you plausibly have a mental illness in my opinion.

Think of the movie Cast Away starring Tom Hanks. When Hanks was lost on the Island, he was focused on issues like food, shelter, and his friend Wilson. He wasn't focused on his looks, because there was nobody else there to give a f***, and that's the kind of behaviour that makes sense in that context. His clothes got worn out, he stopped shaving his beard, etc. There's a great scene when he makes it back to society, and is completely disheveled, everyone looks at him like a freak. That scene communicates that issue well, that we care about looks because other people exist.

This morning I slept in a little bit. I'm still in my pajamas rather than in nice pants. I have not yet put on deodorant. You know why? Because I have not left the house yet, so it doesn't matter. Reading the posts of some of the mirror-loving people on this forum you'd think they put on deodorant first thing in the morning even if they're staying at home and not meeting anybody.

The mirror should not be a hobby, and the value of hair is to attract women. In a world without women, there probably would not be hair transplant surgeons, propecia, or minoxidil.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

I know what you meant but I'll take this at a different angle. It only becomes a mental illness when the thoughts are intrusive and cause significant distress/pain and impairing day to day function. So actually the people happy with their appearance are the ones who are mentally fine regardless of whether they periodically check or not. Some on this forum are quite unwell and constantly comparing looks since they were 14 - they still don't know where they stand (weirdly) and are fluctuating mentally, physically.

If an impoverished person is obsessed with money and coupons, would you say that they have a mental illness, or that their preoccupation with it is a rational response to their situation?

 

[IdealForehead]

Agreed 100%. It is hard for me to take seriously people who say "I want to look good for me." It does sound like a nauseating cope, doesn't it?

Things I do for myself:
- Travel
- Read about history
- Watch movies
- Listen to music
- Enjoy fancy food
- Etc

basically all hobbies. If staring at yourself in the mirror is a hobby, however, you plausibly have a mental illness in my opinion.

Think of the movie Cast Away starring Tom Hanks. When Hanks was lost on the Island, he was focused on issues like food, shelter, and his friend Wilson. He wasn't focused on his looks, because there was nobody else there to give a f***, and that's the kind of behaviour that makes sense in that context. His clothes got worn out, he stopped shaving his beard, etc. There's a great scene when he makes it back to society, and is completely disheveled, everyone looks at him like a freak. That scene communicates that issue well, that we care about looks because other people exist.

This morning I slept in a little bit. I'm still in my pajamas rather than in nice pants. I have not yet put on deodorant. You know why? Because I have not left the house yet, so it doesn't matter. Reading the posts of some of the mirror-loving people on this forum you'd think they put on deodorant first thing in the morning even if they're staying at home and not meeting anybody.

The mirror should not be a hobby, and the value of hair is to attract women. In a world without women, there probably would not be hair transplant surgeons, propecia, or minoxidil.

You and me think similarly (probably in part because we're in the same looks range) and that's exactly how I look at it right down to the Cast Away analogy. When I am debating if something is important for me or not I ask if I was stuck on a dessert island like Hanks and I was never gonna see anyone again would I care? Absolutely I would not care about my hair or my jaws or my height or my facial harmony.

I spend less than 20 minutes a day looking in the mirror. That's the bare minimum I can do. Beyond that, my face and appearance is not for me, it's for society's sake, since at least 100 other people have to look at me for 8+ hours total every routine day. They're the ones who suffer if I am terribly ugly or benefit if I am wonderfully attractive. The only way this trickles down to me is in terms of how they then treat me, because their satisfaction or dissatisfaction will manifest in how they then interact with me. If they would treat me perfectly no matter what I looked like I wouldn't have any reason to care at all.

In particular I would ABSOLUTELY stop shaving regularly which has been one of my most hated parts of my routine for 10-15 years (due to the focussed mirror time it requires and funny sensation on my left lower jawline from prior jaw surgery). That would be my favorite part of the routine to drop. Styling my hair would be my second favorite thing to drop as I basically just have done it my whole life to camouflage my huge forehead (think Owen Wilson style) or if I don't people's eyes just go up to my hairline constantly during conversation and its been that way also my whole adulthood.

Brushing teeth is an unrelated matter since we do that to prevent our teeth from rotting. Nothing would "rot" if I stopped shaving every day or doing my hair except other people's perceptions of me which might then start to affect my job function. I absolutely don't worry about either on the weekends unless I have somewhere important to go.

This is the simple reality of how appearance works in society. It's equally absurd when women say "I wear makeup for ME", but yet wear absolutely none when they are just sitting around the house and then cake it on any time they go out.

Yeah indirectly you do it for "yourself" because you want that positive treatment, but it's because you want other people to see and experience you a certain way more directly.

This has nothing to do with "healthy" or "unhealthy" motivations which is an absurd and off-base judgment. It's a simple pragmatic reflection of how our society functions. Our appearance is mostly for other people's benefit, unless as you say you stare in the mirror all day. Then it trickles back down to us in terms of how others treat us based on how they feel from looking at us.

That's not an opinion. It's just how it works.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Meanwhile this is what we have to compete with in online dating, I saw this on my FB feed:

My career, interests, and charm or whatever are mostly useless on tinder, in part because it's easy to fake. Women are thus extremely rational to be focusing on looks when engaging in online dating, as they're assessing something that is accurate, independently of whether or not it's meaningful.

Even height has no value. My 5'11 might have some marginal positive value in the real world, but in the online world it's a negative, as lots of men are exaggerating their height, adding 1, 2, or 3 inches.

 

[IdealForehead]

Meanwhile this is what we have to compete with in online dating, I saw this on my FB feed:

View attachment 77021
My career, interests, and charm or whatever are mostly useless on tinder, in part because it's easy to fake. Women are thus extremely rational to be focusing on looks when engaging in online dating, as they're assessing something that is accurate, independently of whether or not it's meaningful.

Even height has no value. My 5'11 might have some marginal positive value in the real world, but in the online world it's a negative, as lots of men are exaggerating their height, adding 1, 2, or 3 inches.

You should absolutely claim 6' on your profile. Girls can't tell a one inch difference. You can even put some lifts in your shoes if it makes it feel more real to you. Claiming to be 5'11'' is pointless when you could take advantage of triggering their "OMG he's 6 ft?!" instinct.

I have tried lying up on my height to 5'9" which is a low estimate for what I could get from leg lengthening (could get to 5'10" max) and its made no difference to me. Ditto when I wear lifts to 5'9".

Certainly at those heights I can say an inch or two doesn't matter. But when you can start with a 6 instead of 5 women seem to pay attention. I bet it would help at least marginally. You should at least try it to see.

 

[michel sapin]

honestly when you have been considered beautiful in the past , the fall is even harder .

 

[IdealForehead]

Okay. I thought the discussion about motivations for why guys get hair surgeries or treatments was interesting to have and relevant to this subforum (primary impact of hair loss is typically becoming less attractive, primary goal of treating it is typically to become more attractive).

People shouldn't be ribbing you for being good looking (that's just your good luck) and I don't mean to ever sound like I am myself. I thought the conversation from all parties was all intended to be good natured. I don't think anyone meant anything more than playful teasing for what it's worth.

Agreed about off topic silliness even if it's funny.

 

[IdealForehead]

It's relevant what we are discussing but it must be in a new thread. Often people complain when the thread becomes derailed. In this case it was the memes more than anything so that discussion about hair surgery motivation can continue. No it's fine honestly. You didn't offend me and I apologise if I did. The looks thread has also been removed as it didn't need a whole thread.

For the record I'm reeeeeeeaaaaaalllllllllyyyyyy hard to offend so nowhere close to it.

I'll make another thread because I think it's an interesting separate question.

 

[Susanoo]

Its great to dig into this (looks), but it only goes so far in reality. This is just my opinion but the majority of people stand around the same platform. In order for a chick to approach you, be the first to escalate, or practically walk up and ask for a f***; you either have to be in the top percentile for looks (9+), be in a situation where extreme status is shown (ie: showing up to the venue with a group of chicks or having fun and being in a loud large group where from the outside it looks like your the leader or center of attention), or your an 8+ in looks and have the look that makes the chick go crazy = what "her type" actually means.

My suggestion, if your semi-good looking, find an image and go with it. Chicks all have types that they prefer (rockstar, Drake, basketball player, athlete, emo-artist, etc. Without trying to sound arrogant, if your not good looking it simply means you have more work to do, you got unlucky. Maximize what you can do in the looks department and go after status. I guarantee you the majority of chicks would get in a line to suck Post Malone or Mac Miller's dick and these guy look atrocious. Inb4 someone finds the best pic of one of these rappers and posts it; no I'm not talking about them getting ready for a shoot with GQ magazine involving make up and photoshop. I'm talking about what they look like in everyday life, chicks wouldn't give a dam, because STATUS. And yes they are famous; but if your ugly and able to develop your social skills, learn mannerisms, social cues, and subtleties, and you can develop a group of buddies/mates to where everyone wants to go out with you because your funny and interesting, then in this case when show up to the bar and your the center of attention in your group and everyone is being loud and calling for you, I bet you see better results than just the other random "ugly guy".

What I was originally trying to get at is for most people that are average, decent looking, or even good looking, all you will ever get are subtle hints and cues from females, the more good looking you are the more chicks there will be to drop these random hints. Most people are oblivious to it either way, so most good looking guys aren't getting laid anyways.

 

[blackg]

Interesting because I'm the opposite of you. I care about my hair and apperence for me , I could care less about the women / dating.

I think you're in denial.

 

[Patrick_Bateman]

Its great to dig into this (looks), but it only goes so far in reality. This is just my opinion but the majority of people stand around the same platform. In order for a chick to approach you, be the first to escalate, or practically walk up and ask for a f***; you either have to be in the top percentile for looks (9+), be in a situation where extreme status is shown (ie: showing up to the venue with a group of chicks or having fun and being in a loud large group where from the outside it looks like your the leader or center of attention), or your an 8+ in looks and have the look that makes the chick go crazy = what "her type" actually means.

My suggestion, if your semi-good looking, find an image and go with it. Chicks all have types that they prefer (rockstar, Drake, basketball player, athlete, emo-artist, etc. Without trying to sound arrogant, if your not good looking it simply means you have more work to do, you got unlucky. Maximize what you can do in the looks department and go after status. I guarantee you the majority of chicks would get in a line to suck Post Malone or Mac Miller's dick and these guy look atrocious. Inb4 someone finds the best pic of one of these rappers and posts it; no I'm not talking about them getting ready for a shoot with GQ magazine involving make up and photoshop. I'm talking about what they look like in everyday life, chicks wouldn't give a dam, because STATUS. And yes they are famous; but if your ugly and able to develop your social skills, learn mannerisms, social cues, and subtleties, and you can develop a group of buddies/mates to where everyone wants to go out with you because your funny and interesting, then in this case when show up to the bar and your the center of attention in your group and everyone is being loud and calling for you, I bet you see better results than just the other random "ugly guy".

What I was originally trying to get at is for most people that are average, decent looking, or even good looking, all you will ever get are subtle hints and cues from females, the more good looking you are the more chicks there will be to drop these random hints. Most people are oblivious to it either way, so most good looking guys aren't getting laid anyways.

Cliffs: just be someone else bro!!

 

[Valerija]

its sh*t like this that makes me hate a lot of women

the hypocrisy, the shallowness, ew. i never hear about men being so shallow. if they are they dont shove it in your face like these women did you

She's just not attracted to short(er) guys. That is not shallow at all!

There is no person in the world except ugly people that think that having criterion of physicall attractivness is shallow. Only ugly people think like that because it's a defense mechanism. It's easier for them to attack the girl that rejected them then to face the fact they are not physically attractive. So they mark her as "shallow". LOL

So funny.

And that same short guy would't date for example a fat girl.

Hypocrisy that is hypocrisy!

 

[AbsoluteZen]

She's just not attracted to short(er) guys. That is not shallow at all!

There is no person in the world except ugly people that think that having criterion of physicall attractivness is shallow. Only ugly people think like that because it's a defense mechanism. It's easier for them to attack the girl that rejected them then to face the fact they are not physically attractive. So they mark her as "shallow". LOL

So funny.

And that same short guy would't date for example a fat girl.

Hypocrisy that is hypocrisy!

the thing is that height is genetic and a person can't control how tall or short they can grow to be, but fat can be controlled with diet and exercise. i would go out with a fat girl, but fat girls won't go out with me.

 

[Valerija]

the thing is that height is genetic and a person can't control how tall or short they can grow to be, but fat can be controlled with diet and exercise. i would go out with a fat girl, but fat girls won't go out with me.

Well if they're not physically atracted to you they won't go out with you. It's their right. No one has to go out on dates with guys or girls they find unattractive. Humans will forever have that criterion of beauty.

You can rant and rant. But you can't change it. It's hard. But maybe you should blame GOD, I mean you're all Christians in USA, so God made you that way. His fault. Some have it, some don't. Cruel God, don't you think?