On hairlosstalk since 7 years, there's still no cure?

[FCKW36]

Hi,

I'm on hairlosstalk since late 2014, in the German forum since 2011/2012. Taking RU + Minoxidil since then and could stop or better slow down my hair loss. It didn't bother me too much the last year, even if my hair is not good by any means anymore, but today I checked back and thought "Man maybe they'll have something by now". Would be nice. But nothing. Wtf? Absolutely depressing... There will never be a cure. What a joke.

 

[Redgate]

I have found the cure, but I am not going to tell you what it is.

 

[fashy]

I don't know, but if another user asks one more time in one of these threads a cure could magically appear, I'm sure.

 

[jamesbooker1975]

Hi,

I'm on hairlosstalk since late 2014, in the German forum since 2011/2012. Taking RU + Minoxidil since then and could stop or better slow down my hair loss. It didn't bother me too much the last year, even if my hair is not good by any means anymore, but today I checked back and thought "Man maybe they'll have something by now". Would be nice. But nothing. Wtf? Absolutely depressing... There will never be a cure. What a joke.

I am here since 1998, and really nothing new after Dutasteride back in 2002 . Cetirizine 1 % and not much with studies . that where already proven to work ( tretinoin plus minoxidil, ketoconazole, etc ) back in the 90s . Even Ru is form the 90s.

 

[whatevr]

There is never going to be a cure until a highly breakthrough technology that will likely be appplicable to numerous other fields of medicine, this is either going to be genetic silencing via miRNA/siRNA or cloning.

No topical is ever going to be a cure because they cannot be localized to the scalp, unless some kind of miracle vehicle is developed which is very unlikely. If topicals could be localized you could already apply your choice of AA like bicalutamide or AR degraders in extreme doses + estrogen and be essentially cured, no need for any new drugs. But because they will always go systemic this route is just a cope.

Disabling the androgen receptor with >99% targettable genetic vectors is the only sensible solution that won't have you putting your balls on the chopping block for a few terminal hairs. Probably not technologically feasible within this decade though.

 

[froggy7]

I wonder how Stemson thinks to make his hair dht resistant?

 

[badnewsbearer]

lop there is nothing breakthroigh about the rna tech that would be required to do this in fact i think we can do this already with many conditions, it is just not applied to hair loss.

whatevr, since you are so smart and scientifically savy why not apply for a job at kintor or olix, they could halt their trials immediately but they have not had this valuable insight that you had, it will cost them lots of money that could otherwise be saved! stupid kintor developng an androgen degrader when smart people like you have already found out that it is impossible to not make it stay local and not go systemic.

actually though, you give zero scientific rationale. as far as rna tech goes, it of course will not require a big breakthroigh that can be applied to other fields, this kind of tech already exists-it is just nor being applied to hair loss. there is multiple microRNA/siRNA therapies in preclinical or early stage clinical trials right now. rodent models are bsd to study hair loss but they are decent enoigh to guessstimate systemic absorption and impact. also there are skin models in a lab that can gauge localized effect. olix has tested their drug in both models and have found no systemic impact hence why thsx are furthering to clinical trials.

it is one thing to be smart and pessimistic bit to always repeat the same dumb sh*t when you do not know what you are talking avoht is in fact lame. the truth is bobody knows if this can work but once again some smartass on hairlosstalk knows better than the lead scientists of billion dollar drug companies where a lot of money is on the line. butiT cAnnnOt WoRk right? so why invest anyway?

 

[badnewsbearer]

I wonder how Stemson thinks to make his hair dht resistant?

they could methylate the 5AR and AR gene so the cells they will then culture will have no abilities tp produce dht and if they would get it from elsewhere they could not synthesize androgen receptors anyway. iam not sure how hard it would be for them but it is definitely technologically possible to alter cultured cells this way, their whole process is based on doing these epiginetic changes to program cell fate and differentiation into their DP target

 

[badnewsbearer]

hell if CB would not be so weak itd be the cure right there. proving once again that whatever is just very consistent in talking nonsense. maybe you should become a scientific advisor

 

[froggy7]

they could methylate the 5AR and AR gene so the cells they will then culture will have no abilities tp produce dht and if they would get it from elsewhere they could not synthesize androgen receptors anyway. iam not sure how hard it would be for them but it is definitely technologically possible to alter cultured cells this way, their whole process is based on doing these epiginetic changes to program cell fate and differentiation into their DP target

So is it possible, but not necessarily easy to obtain?

 

[whatevr]

lop there is nothing breakthroigh about the rna tech that would be required to do this in fact i think we can do this already with many conditions, it is just not applied to hair loss.

whatevr, since you are so smart and scientifically savy why not apply for a job at kintor or olix, they could halt their trials immediately but they have not had this valuable insight that you had, it will cost them lots of money that could otherwise be saved! stupid kintor developng an androgen degrader when smart people like you have already found out that it is impossible to not make it stay local and not go systemic.

actually though, you give zero scientific rationale. as far as rna tech goes, it of course will not require a big breakthroigh that can be applied to other fields, this kind of tech already exists-it is just nor being applied to hair loss. there is multiple microRNA/siRNA therapies in preclinical or early stage clinical trials right now. rodent models are bsd to study hair loss but they are decent enoigh to guessstimate systemic absorption and impact. also there are skin models in a lab that can gauge localized effect. olix has tested their drug in both models and have found no systemic impact hence why thsx are furthering to clinical trials.

it is one thing to be smart and pessimistic bit to always repeat the same dumb sh*t when you do not know what you are talking avoht is in fact lame. the truth is bobody knows if this can work but once again some smartass on hairlosstalk knows better than the lead scientists of billion dollar drug companies where a lot of money is on the line. butiT cAnnnOt WoRk right? so why invest anyway?

After nearly having an aneurysm reading this mental diarrhea, let me say this: I'm talking out of experience from 7 years of dealing with hair loss. I've heard all the claims that companies have made in the past, and they all fell flat when finally tested in the real world. Topical Finasteride, CB-03-01, even Topilutamide, have all shown to go systemic despite claims not to do so. I would much rather see companies work on more effective vehicles or delivery methods than new drugs.

There really is nothing currently standing behind Kintor's products other than 'claims', claims that it doesn't go systemic (even their own studies show that it is detected in serum) and claims that there are no adverse effects at that dose (Oral and topical finasteride studies come to mind, or CB-03-01 which was shown to suppress HPTA despite 'not going systemic').

But you don't have to take my word for it, within a year or so you will have reports from people who have managed to get their hands on Kintor's products before they come to market and you will see that they change absolutely nothing - people who can tolerate antiandrogens will use them and those who can't, won't because they will get side effects just as with other AA's.

 

[fashy]

There really is nothing currently standing behind Kintor's products other than 'claims', claims that it doesn't go systemic (even their own studies show that it is detected in serum) and claims that there are no adverse effects at that dose (Oral and topical finasteride studies come to mind, or CB-03-01 which was shown to suppress HPTA despite 'not going systemic').

I have to agree with @badnewsbearer (tho I'm surprised he actually takes this side here) and point out that you're just talking nonsense. The part about their own studies showing it goes systemic is flat out false and I don't understand how many times something has to be discussed without it later being the subject of misinformation.

Kintor's phase I and II did not show pyrilutamide being detectable in the blood at anything other than the largest doses trialed. At the lower doses, including the 5mg dose that they will be taking into the phase III trial, the drug did not go systemic even after 15 days of daily administration, meaning serum levels were still negligible even after chemical build-up.

 

[trialAcc]

After nearly having an aneurysm reading this mental diarrhea, let me say this: I'm talking out of experience from 7 years of dealing with hair loss. I've heard all the claims that companies have made in the past, and they all fell flat when finally tested in the real world. Topical Finasteride, CB-03-01, even Topilutamide, have all shown to go systemic despite claims not to do so. I would much rather see companies work on more effective vehicles or delivery methods than new drugs.

There really is nothing currently standing behind Kintor's products other than 'claims', claims that it doesn't go systemic (even their own studies show that it is detected in serum) and claims that there are no adverse effects at that dose (Oral and topical finasteride studies come to mind, or CB-03-01 which was shown to suppress HPTA despite 'not going systemic').

But you don't have to take my word for it, within a year or so you will have reports from people who have managed to get their hands on Kintor's products before they come to market and you will see that they change absolutely nothing - people who can tolerate antiandrogens will use them and those who can't, won't because they will get side effects just as with other AA's.

Their own studies do not show that it goes systemic. They showed the detectable serum concentrations for the entire range of phase 1 dosing and pushed the dose (0.5%) that was not detectable at all in the serum at any point within 24 hours to 15 days of dosing into phase 2. I think it would be naïve to think that trace amounts are still not going systemic or that it couldn't accumulate in tissue still, but it doesn't change that it is below the detectable threshold at the pursued dose.

For CB, they never claimed that it didn't go systemic, they claimed that it was broken down incredibly quickly on contact with the blood so that systemic sides would be avoided. Clearly it doesn't break down fast enough in some individuals to avoid the HPTA issues, but that doesn't change the fact that your claim is incorrect.

I agree with you that AA use is going to be dependent on your own bodily ability to handle the drugs, but you're also heavily biased because you get sides from everything including a non-competitive dose of ARV which no one else experienced even a tickle from. There are people who can handle AA use, even if it goes mildly systemic.

Overall, KX will be a healthy addition to people's regimen who are too scared to try RU and will provide a bit longer of a maintenance period for those people, but not move the needle in being a "cure". A cure that can actually regrow hair will have to come from an angle that has nothing to do with the AR, as we all know the best you can hope for is minor regrowth from an AR blocking therapy. I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility within the decade though. Things like HMI/prolactin or a well targeted WNT therapy are avenues that come to mind. Even cloning is not out of the question within the decade.

 

[badnewsbearer]

After nearly having an aneurysm reading this mental diarrhea, let me say this: I'm talking out of experience from 7 years of dealing with hair loss. I've heard all the claims that companies have made in the past, and they all fell flat when finally tested in the real world. Topical Finasteride, CB-03-01, even Topilutamide, have all shown to go systemic despite claims not to do so. I would much rather see companies work on more effective vehicles or delivery methods than new drugs.

There really is nothing currently standing behind Kintor's products other than 'claims', claims that it doesn't go systemic (even their own studies show that it is detected in serum) and claims that there are no adverse effects at that dose (Oral and topical finasteride studies come to mind, or CB-03-01 which was shown to suppress HPTA despite 'not going systemic').

But you don't have to take my word for it, within a year or so you will have reports from people who have managed to get their hands on Kintor's products before they come to market and you will see that they change absolutely nothing - people who can tolerate antiandrogens will use them and those who can't, won't because they will get side effects just as with other AA's.

you cannot honestly believe that i will i vest much time and correct my typing for a post on this forum directed to you. also crazy that i need to say this but your "experience" and your experiments are not actual science.

topicalutamide has been shown to go systemic? shown? bx who? are you anti vaccine too btw? brcause it has been shown(by some rando om the internet) that vaccines cause pristate cancer! and that a scientific proof. please educate us tho and show us where it "has been shown"

furthermore we should talk about systemic androgenic activity rather than systemic drug load, CB for example its metabolite goes systemic but it has no anti androgenic effect. sure, it can cause sides vut they are of a completely different nature(due to cortexalone being a corticosteroid) it can in higher levels cause a negative feedback from the hypothalamus and puitury gland leading to a decreased prpduction of these steroids in the adrenal gland, the HPA shut down but this was quite rare and once again not an anti androgenic side effect. so clearly local AA action with no systemic effects is possible.

topical finasteride another dumb argument, nobody denies that some of it goes systemic, but that is not the whole picture as serum levels of finasteride are 150 times lower, dht levels higher than in oral finasteride.

you have companies tryi g out their concepts doing honest science and then you have goofballs like you who genuinely think they are also "doing science" with their self experimentation "showing" how things are. people like you would not differentiate if kintors drug had a massive systemic impact vs you could find a single f*****g molecule in the blood, its all the same for you people


fact us a topical AA would never get approved by the FDA for hair lpss let alone acne for chikdren so there has to be something behind it or they would not apply for trials and waste so much money.

but its the age old story of people on this forum with their mediocre scientific understanding knowing more than advisors at large corporations. butyou are right, just one more year so we can hear all the personal anecdotes from people like you buyjng impure research chemicals from china and telli g us about their nocebo side effects of an anti sndrogen with high puberty, meanwhile kintor who knows sh*t abojt this(bc they are all idiots) trying to trials this for teenage boys for acne in the US(bye bye penis development, bye bye puberty), sre you for real?

 

[whatevr]

Their own studies do not show that it goes systemic. They showed the detectable serum concentrations for the entire range of phase 1 dosing and pushed the dose (0.5%) that was not detectable at all in the serum at any point within 24 hours to 15 days of dosing into phase 2. I think it would be naïve to think that trace amounts are still not going systemic or that it couldn't accumulate in tissue still, but it doesn't change that it is below the detectable threshold at the pursued dose.

Yes, fair enough, I didn't really follow the updates since the 2020 press release that showed the systemic accumulation at 12 mg doses and I thought that 12 mg was the target dose. Let's hope that it not being detectable also equals no side effects in the real world.

For CB, they never claimed that it didn't go systemic, they claimed that it was broken down incredibly quickly on contact with the blood so that systemic sides would be avoided. Clearly it doesn't break down fast enough in some individuals to avoid the HPTA issues, but that doesn't change the fact that your claim is incorrect.

The claim was even more conservative than that; just no "anti-androgenic systemic side effects":

No systemic adverse effects were observed, which is consistent with the results of in vivo studies showing clascoterone has only local, not systemic, antiandrogenic activity.
Clascoterone targets androgen receptors at the site of application and is quickly metabolized to an inactive form, thus limiting systemic activity.(src)

I guess that's correct, then, if we assume that HPA axis disruption is a result of corticosteroid-like activity by the cortexolone metabolite. Of course this got sold all over the forums as saying that CB will not have ANY side effects, but molecules (or their metabolites) may have off-target effects. Given the above, why do people still doubt that RU can potentially have the cardiac side effects reported?

I agree with you that AA use is going to be dependent on your own bodily ability to handle the drugs, but you're also heavily biased because you get sides from everything including a non-competitive dose of ARV which no one else experienced even a tickle from. There are people who can handle AA use, even if it goes mildly systemic.

Overall, KX will be a healthy addition to people's regimen who are too scared to try RU and will provide a bit longer of a maintenance period for those people, but not move the needle in being a "cure". A cure that can actually regrow hair will have to come from an angle that has nothing to do with the AR, as we all know the best you can hope for is minor regrowth from an AR blocking therapy. I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility within the decade though. Things like HMI/prolactin or a well targeted WNT therapy are avenues that come to mind. Even cloning is not out of the question within the decade.

I can't handle them and I've been burnt by every one that I tried. I only follow them out of morbid curiosity at this point.

The only thing that I hold any short-term hope for is the prolactin angle. HMI will probably be a systemic injection and prolactin inhibition sounds like a far more pleasant experience based on anecdotal reports from SMI users so far.

 

[whatevr]

you cannot honestly believe that i will i vest much time and correct my typing for a post on this forum directed to you.

You cannot honestly believe that I will invest much time into replying to your crazy diatribe.

 

[trialAcc]

Yes, fair enough, I didn't really follow the updates since the 2020 press release that showed the systemic accumulation at 12 mg doses and I thought that 12 mg was the target dose. Let's hope that it not being detectable also equals no side effects in the real world.



The claim was even more conservative than that; just no "anti-androgenic systemic side effects":

No systemic adverse effects were observed, which is consistent with the results of in vivo studies showing clascoterone has only local, not systemic, antiandrogenic activity.
Clascoterone targets androgen receptors at the site of application and is quickly metabolized to an inactive form, thus limiting systemic activity.(src)

I guess that's correct, then, if we assume that HPA axis disruption is a result of corticosteroid-like activity by the cortexolone metabolite. Of course this got sold all over the forums as saying that CB will not have ANY side effects, but molecules (or their metabolites) may have off-target effects. Given the above, why do people still doubt that RU can potentially have the cardiac side effects reported?



I can't handle them and I've been burnt by every one that I tried. I only follow them out of morbid curiosity at this point.

The only thing that I hold any short-term hope for is the prolactin angle. HMI will probably be a systemic injection and prolactin inhibition sounds like a far more pleasant experience based on anecdotal reports from SMI users so far.

I think we are at the tipping point of a new wave of next gen treatments, most of which will be realized/hitting the market in the second half of this decade. People don't accept hairloss anymore and the market size is increasing as younger men from all over (but primarily the asian countries) are experiencing earlier and more aggressive hairloss.

Even if it's not HMI/prolactin (HMI is a subQ injection, it's an antibody), I think we see significant progress on treatment avenues just based on the trickledown effect that will come from the billions that are pouring into cell rejuvenation and targeted therapies.

 

[Kagaho]

I think we see significant progress on treatment avenues just based on the trickledown effect that will come from the billions that are pouring into cell rejuvenation and targeted therapies.

It appears OliX clinical trials for their asymetric siRNA for Androgenetic Alopecia are planned to start soon. Thats the beginning of the end, especially for younger generations.

Mapping the RNA therapeutics R&D landscape in 2022 - Pharmaceutical Technology

Fueled by the successful utilisation of the mRNA Covid-19 vaccines, RNA therapeutics are expected to make larger strides in 2022

www.pharmaceutical-technology.com

 

[-specter-]

I think we are at the tipping point of a new wave of next gen treatments, most of which will be realized/hitting the market in the second half of this decade. People don't accept hairloss anymore and the market size is increasing as younger men from all over (but primarily the asian countries) are experiencing earlier and more aggressive hairloss.

Even if it's not HMI/prolactin (HMI is a subQ injection, it's an antibody), I think we see significant progress on treatment avenues just based on the trickledown effect that will come from the billions that are pouring into cell rejuvenation and targeted therapies.

lose your hair in Asia it's practically game over, in countries like South Korea it has a devastating impact.

 

[coolio]

Q. How do you cure fingernails that grow too long? How do you cure bad body odor? Yellowing teeth?

What would it take to accomplish this stuff? Gene altering? Perfect topical drugs with zero side effects or systemic action?



A. It isn't necessary to cure a problem if there is a good practical TREATMENT OPTION.

That's all we need for hair loss. Something to put terminal hairs back onto our heads. All it has to do is work, not cost the price of a house, and not need constant daily drugs for the rest of your life. We don't need genetic cures or drugs with unrealistic super-powers.