Off Treatment For Awhile Still Experiencing Sides

[yetti]

You are being very deceptive. You are now saying that the dude should talk to a doctor,and implying that I would disagree with that suggestion. I don't have any problem with that at all, of course, and never said otherwise. Of course that's not a bad idea. But anyone can look at the top of the thread and see that this was not your response to the poster. This was your advice, in full:

The CDnuts protocol might be your best help.
How comfortably are you going without food for 15-20 days, and then taking steroids? That helped him recover, he's fully recovered now.

Separately, consider joining the lawsuit:
https://www.schmidtandclark.com/finasteride

So, you did not say, go to a doctor. Rather, you played doctor, and lawyer, and suggested a 15-20 day fast, steroids, and a lawsuit. My response was, it could also be anxiety - which was absolutely right. It's a major, well-established cause of ED. I didn't say it IS anxiety, I said it could be. Your response, "Dr." David_MPN, was that my post was "complete nonsense". Well, no, besides being very rude, you're also 100% wrong. It could also be anxiety, and he would be wrong to follow your incorrect, dangerous advice about steroids or a 20 day fast without being advised so by a medical doctor, which is something you are not, and also something you did not suggest. Now you are saying that he should talk to a doctor, and sure, I agree with that of course, and never said otherwise. That's a good suggestion, unlike your dangerous first one.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Probably I'd have to know you and your situation better. You should also definitely see a urologist, and order a blood hormonal panel of all the relevant panels. If you gained weight while on finasteride, cut it.

Is followed by:

You are being very deceptive. You are now saying that the dude should talk to a doctor

 

[maxout777]

You are being very deceptive. You are now saying that the dude should talk to a doctor,and implying that I would disagree with that suggestion. I don't have any problem with that at all, of course, and never said otherwise. Of course that's not a bad idea. But anyone can look at the top of the thread and see that this was not your response to the poster. This was your advice, in full:

The CDnuts protocol might be your best help.
How comfortably are you going without food for 15-20 days, and then taking steroids? That helped him recover, he's fully recovered now.

Separately, consider joining the lawsuit:
https://www.schmidtandclark.com/finasteride

So, you did not say, go to a doctor. Rather, you played doctor, and lawyer, and suggested a 15-20 day fast, steroids, and a lawsuit. My response was, it could also be anxiety - which was absolutely right. It's a major, well-established cause of ED. I didn't say it IS anxiety, I said it could be. Your response, "Dr." David_MPN, was that my post was "complete nonsense". Well, no, besides being very rude, you're also 100% wrong. It could also be anxiety, and he would be wrong to follow your incorrect, dangerous advice about steroids or a 20 day fast without being advised so by a medical doctor, which is something you are not, and also something you did not suggest. Now you are saying that he should talk to a doctor, and sure, I agree with that of course, and never said otherwise. That's a good suggestion, unlike your dangerous first one.

Doctors are worthless when it comes to helping with 5ARI damage. My own doctor told me he'd be glad to give me blood tests and all I wanted Rx wise, but from what he had read on the condition, it wouldn't be of much help.

I actually undertook the CDnuts protocol and have made great strides toward a complete recovery and the reason I think it was quicker for me is because I caught it early. Instead, you prefer to comment on something you clearly know little to nothing about to dissuade the OP from attempting it. It's not just "steroids and a water fast", David_MPN was just using a summary. Instead you fall back on "go see a doctor" and "it could just be anxiety" to overshadow your ignorance on the topic. I hate to make this sound like a personal attack because I don't mean it to be, but please consider your words before you just throw them out there.

 

[yetti]

"Probably I'd have to know you and your situation better. You should also definitely see a urologist, and order a blood hormonal panel of all the relevant panels. If you gained weight while on finasteride, cut it."


LOL, this wasn't your first response to the guy. Your first response to the guy, to take steroids, etc., prompted the dumbfounded poster to reply, to you, "Actually? Surely there are other options to pursue first?". And then you wrote the above. My response, it could also be anxiety, was absolutely right. It could be. Your response to me, "absolute nonsense", was rude, arrogant, and very incorrect, as it could also be anxiety.

 

[yetti]

Doctors are worthless when it comes to helping with 5ARI damage. My own doctor told me he'd be glad to give me blood tests and all I wanted Rx wise, but from what he had read on the condition, it wouldn't be of much help.

I actually undertook the CDnuts protocol and have made great strides toward a complete recovery and the reason I think it was quicker for me is because I caught it early. Instead, you prefer to comment on something you clearly know little to nothing about to dissuade the OP from attempting it. It's not just "steroids and a water fast", David_MPN was just using a summary. Instead you fall back on "go see a doctor" and "it could just be anxiety" to overshadow your ignorance on the topic. I hate to make this sound like a personal attack because I don't mean it to be, but please consider your words before you just throw them out there.

Yes, I would absolutely, absolutely dissuade the OP from taking steroids and taking a 20 day fast without seeing a doctor first. (A knowledgeable, good doctor, of course, not a hack.) That suggestion doesn't make me ignorant, it's wise. As the ED could of course be due to many things, including anxiety. When you are worried about getting it up, it can make it difficult to get it up. It's called performance anxiety, it's a well established thing, and it's possible here. Not definite, maybe not even probable, but absolutely possible.

 

[yetti]

By the way, I'd like to say to MAXOUT, your post is an example of how to have a conversation. I might take issue with something your wrote, and vice-versa, but thank you for talking in a normal way. David, study his post for a non-arrogant, adult way to have a conversation with someone, even if it includes disagreement.

 

[maxout777]

Yes, I would absolutely, absolutely dissuade the OP from taking steroids and taking a 20 day fast without seeing a doctor first. (A knowledgeable, good doctor, of course, not a hack.) That suggestion doesn't make me ignorant, it's wise. As it could of course be due to many things, including anxiety.

You completely missed my point. I CLEARLY stated it's not a water fast and steroids. It's a fast to cleanse, Paleo diet, herbal supplementation with mind calming techniques..... the "steroids" are optional anyway. Google it if you'd like to know more.

And the "steroids" are actually pro hormones, androsterone to be exact....which is a DHT precursor and neurosteroid. Very little if any suppression and this is used to create DHT in your system, and there is science to show that more DHT in the system results in the presence/creation of more 5AR. So essentially you're recreating the enzyme that was blocked my Finasteride/dutasteride/SP/etc, but again this part is optional. You can get by without them, this just accelerated the process in mine, and in the creator of the protocol's case. I'm not just promoting this with no knowledge of the situation.

And yeah, it COULD be anxiety. All other factors given tend to make the odds lean the other way though.

 

[yetti]

You completely missed my point. I CLEARLY stated it's not a water fast and steroids. It's a fast to cleanse, Paleo diet, herbal supplementation with mind calming techniques..... the "steroids" are optional anyway. Google it if you'd like to know more.

And the "steroids" are actually pro hormones, androsterone to be exact....which is a DHT precursor and neurosteroid. Very little if any suppression and this is used to create DHT in your system, and there is science to show that more DHT in the system results in the presence/creation of more 5AR. So essentially you're recreating the enzyme that was blocked my Finasteride/dutasteride/SP/etc, but again this part is optional. You can get by without them, this just accelerated the process in mine, and in the creator of the protocol's case. I'm not just promoting this with no knowledge of the situation.

And yeah, it COULD be anxiety. All other factors given tend to make the odds lean the other way though.

I'd still say, talk to a knowledgeable doctor first.

And steroids and a fast is what David posted. If it's something different that's fine, but to summarize it that way is dangerous. The way you describe it isn't.

Thank you for acknowledging that it could be anxiety. Not that it is, but it could be. Because, well, it could be.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

"Probably I'd have to know you and your situation better. You should also definitely see a urologist, and order a blood hormonal panel of all the relevant panels. If you gained weight while on finasteride, cut it."


LOL, this wasn't your first response to the guy. Your first response to the guy, to take steroids, etc., prompted the dumbfounded poster to reply, to you, "Actually? Surely there are other options to pursue first?". Because your first response was way over the top, and dangerous. And then you wrote the above. My response, it could also be anxiety, was absolutely right. It could be. Your response to me, "absolute nonsense", was rude, arrogant, and very incorrect, as it could also be anxiety.

It was my second response, I expanded on the advice in my second post which is fine. It's a normal thing to go back to posts and to threads and add content. If I had left my first post there on its own and said it was the only way you'd have a point, but I did not. I expanded

Seeing a doctor is a good opportunity to rule out obvious alternative causes such as a bacterial infection, weight gain / high blood pressure. The doctor will also give him free samples of v****, cialis, and levitra (PDE5 inhibitors) which he can try out and find out if they help. The doctor might order a panel of hormones such as T, DHT, SHBG, thyroid hormones, etc to look for an anomaly. These might be at play for him and thus I went back and added the advice to see a urologist.

And steroids and a fast is what David posted. If it's something different that's fine, but to summarize it that way is dangerous. The way you describe it isn't.

I told him to look up the CDnuts protocol.

It's not at all implied that I gave a complete summary. The OP isn't an idiot that he's just going to go do a 20-day water fast the next day. The most obvious thing to do after my post is ... to look up the CDnuts protocol.

I did ask him how comfortable he would be with a 20-day fast. IMO, that's the hardest part.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

You completely missed my point. I CLEARLY stated it's not a water fast and steroids. It's a fast to cleanse, Paleo diet, herbal supplementation with mind calming techniques..... the "steroids" are optional anyway. Google it if you'd like to know more.

And the "steroids" are actually pro hormones, androsterone to be exact....which is a DHT precursor and neurosteroid. Very little if any suppression and this is used to create DHT in your system, and there is science to show that more DHT in the system results in the presence/creation of more 5AR. So essentially you're recreating the enzyme that was blocked my Finasteride/dutasteride/SP/etc, but again this part is optional. You can get by without them, this just accelerated the process in mine, and in the creator of the protocol's case. I'm not just promoting this with no knowledge of the situation.

And yeah, it COULD be anxiety. All other factors given tend to make the odds lean the other way though.

Thank you for your good posts.

I'd like to know more about your experiences. I don't have PFS but I have some of the symptoms, so I want to try it due to my desperation.

Which steroids did you use? Which herbal supplements did you use? How many times did you cycle through the protocol?

 

[yetti]

It was my second response, I expanded on the advice in my second post which is fine. It's a normal thing to go back to posts and to threads and add content. If I had left my first post there on its own and said it was the only way you'd have a point, but I did not. I expanded

Seeing a doctor is a good opportunity to rule out obvious alternative causes such as a bacterial infection, weight gain / high blood pressure. The doctor will also give him free samples of v****, cialis, and levitra (PDE5 inhibitors) which he can try out and find out if they help. The doctor might order a panel of hormones such as T, DHT, SHBG, thyroid hormones, etc to look for an anomaly. These might be at play for him and thus I went back and added the advice to see a urologist.


I told him to look up the CDnuts protocol.

It's not at all implied that I gave a complete summary. The OP isn't an idiot that he's just going to go do a 20-day water fast the next day. The most obvious thing to do after my post is ... to look up the CDnuts protocol.

I did ask him how comfortable he would be with a 20-day fast. IMO, that's the hardest part.

OK, it's all good. Look, I know you aren't a bad guy, and indeed your second post clarifies your first. All this nonsense back and forth is due to one thing. I said it could be anxiety - and hey it could be - and you responded "absolutely ridiculous". Which, besides being very rude, is flat out wrong. It's not ridiculous. Yes, I agree that he should see a doctor and never said otherwise.

 

[yetti]

I'd like to say something about anxiety, psychology, and ED. Of course, we are all different. You've talked about your own experience. Allow me to get personal for a moment too... I know myself. If I were to take finasteride, I would be worrying about whether or not it would cause ED, and that would become a self-fulfilling prophesy and could well cause some ED. Because I'd no longer be thinking about a sexy girl, but rather myself, my medication, and whether or not I was getting the dreaded side effect. And if I were to stop finasteride, it would be the same way, I'd be worrying about whether or not I'd have the post-finasteride syndrome. My feeling is that there are a lot of guys like me. Like this guy,

https://www.hairlosstalk.com/intera...effects-of-finasteride-plz-help-me-out.95388/

who had the same problem, I said the same thing to about anxiety, and by the end of the thread he thanks me and credits me for actually fixing his ED problem.

Yes, the poster in this thread has presumably had ED for longer, and I agree he should see a doctor, for sure. But just explaining where I'm coming from. I sure would be anxious about it, and it would affect me. As it affected the guy in the thread above.

 

[dralex]

I would talk with a doctor/psychiatrist. I had trouble getting an erection one time while drunk and it bugged me so much not being able to get it up it was all I could think about for the next couple weeks. I thought I had ED for over 3 weeks. I even had trouble getting an erection while masterbating because it was all I could think about. I wasn't getting morning wood either (never really get that too often when I sleep in). And this was all before I started taking finasteride. Turns out it was all fear-induced ED. I decided to not masturbate for like 2-3 weeks and stopped watching p**rn, and started thinking about over things than my dick, and bam my erections were back full force in a couple weeks.
Before I got this fixed I even talked to my doctor about it because it was bothering me so much and I thought my hormones must be out of whack. The doctor told me that over 90% of ED cases in men in their 20s is actually psychologically induced.
The 20 day fast people are telling you to take is actually absurd, and the results of it are almost definitely psychological. If you want to screw your body up even more then sure go fast for 20 days.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

The 20 day fast people are telling you to take is actually absurd, and the results of it are almost definitely psychological. If you want to screw your body up even more then sure go fast for 20 days.

With respect, you shouldn't comment on issues on which you have not done any prior research. Sometimes your biases will be wrong, and this is one of those times.

Lots of people go on extended fasts and there are clinics where you can check in and have a medically-supervised water fast lasting 10, 20, 30, 40 days. The world record is 382 days, and the man was in perfect health when they followed up on him 5 years later. You can find it on pubmed, his progress was tracked with regular blood and urine tests.

This was the cover story of Harper's Magazine (a respected magazine) in March 2012
http://media.wix.com/ugd/03997d_422ba2e2c279e899b8d1c3de71f1b1e7.pdf
Starving Yourself to Vigor
By Steve Hendricks
It's 11 pages long, the man did a 20-day water fast which he covered in the article, along with a history of fasting as a medical treatment. It's well-written. He lost 25 lbs, and he kept 20 lbs of weight off over the next two years. 1 pound per day is typical for intermediate-length fasts.

The evidence is clear that if you are not malnourished, then your body is able to undergo a water-only fast lasting several weeks, until you get down to ~5% body fat. Thousands of people have done this, it's fine. Typically, the second and third day are the hardest ones. Your body will typically catabolize ~15 lbs of fat for every 1 lbs of lean mass. I think anybody with health issues should research the issue and give a long water-only fast some consideration.

 

[dralex]

With respect, you shouldn't comment on issues on which you have not done any prior research. Sometimes your biases will be wrong, and this is one of those times.

Lots of people go on extended fasts and there are clinics where you can check in and have a medically-supervised water fast lasting 10, 20, 30, 40 days. The world record is 382 days, and the man was in perfect health when they followed up on him 5 years later. You can find it on pubmed, his progress was tracked with regular blood and urine tests.

This was the cover story of Harper's Magazine (a respected magazine) in March 2012
http://media.wix.com/ugd/03997d_422ba2e2c279e899b8d1c3de71f1b1e7.pdf
Starving Yourself to Vigor
By Steve Hendricks
It's 11 pages long, the man did a 20-day water fast which he covered in the article, along with a history of fasting as a medical treatment. It's well-written. He lost 25 lbs, and he kept 20 lbs of weight off over the next two years. 1 pound per day is typical for intermediate-length fasts.

LOL? Fasting for extended periods is extremely dangerous.
"Fasting puts two different types of stress on your heart. First, it cannibalizes cardiac muscle for fuel. The human body does everything it can to conserve muscle during a fast, but inevitably some muscle will be sacrificed at the beginning of the fast. After a few days, the body switches over to using fat, but researchers have discovered that protein (muscle) utilization actually increases again later on, even though fat stores are still available. This protein includes the muscle in your heart: weaken this too much, and heart failure will result.

Strict water fasting is also a risk for heart failure because during a fast, the body’s intracellular stores of minerals vital for cardiac function, like magnesium and potassium, are depleted, even though serum levels remain normal. The results of this cardiac muscle loss and mineral deprivation can be tragic. During the 1950s and 60s, fasting was used as an experimental treatment for obesity, and several patients died (many from heart failure). Other reports of people dying during long fasts include more cases of heart failure. More recently, in 2010, a woman in Florida died after 21 days of fasting.

Other fasters die of infectious diseases that they simply don’t have the energy to fight off without adequate nutrition. In 1978, for example, a man named William Carlton died of pneumonia at a fasting center after fasting for 29 days in an attempt to cure his ulcerative colitis. He was 49 years old, and in normal health other than the colitis. Worldwide, infectious diseases are actually the most common cause of death among starving people, because an immune system weakened by malnutrition tends to give in before heart problems start to show."

"The body cannot differentiate between voluntary fasting and starvation and deaths have occurred even with medically supervised fasts and near-fasts. People who survive prolonged fasts (starvation) may suffer anemia, decreased immunity, osteoporosis, kidney damage, or liver damage. Depressed gastrointestinal or digestive functions may persist for weeks or months [v]. The worst thing about fasting is its destruction of lean and vital tissue needed for a healthy and active life. Fasting, like colonic irrigation, laxatives, sweat baths, and other naturopathic regimes are at best useless, and at worst, can be fatal." - http://www.ncahf.org/articles/e-i/fasting.html

Just because you found some dumbass article about a dude fasting doesn't mean it is healthy. Extended periods of fasting, even medically supervised, is just stupid unless you are dying of obesity, and even then there are MUCH better treatments.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Just because you found some dumbass article about a dude fasting doesn't mean it is healthy. Extended periods of fasting, even medically supervised, is just stupid unless you are dying of obesity.

I linked to one article in one of the most prestigious American monthlies because I did not want to flood the thread. There are thousands of people doing this, it's fine. I'm not going to link to thousands of articles here. Have you heard of Harper's? It's not aimed at dumbasses.

What you did here is you went to google and copied and pasted the first article that agreed with your viewpoint. That's not a good way to think about things. Try and do some actual research. The article I linked actually itself discusses many case studies which you can research yourself.

Here's a book coming out next week written by a nephrologist (a kidney specialist) who was educated at the University of Toronto Medical School, and now practices there ... is he "a dumbass" too? Do you know more about medicine than he does?
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Gui...TF8&qid=1476285961&sr=8-1&keywords=jason+fung
No, he is educated and smart. He has been practicing specialized, advanced medicine for decades and is trained at an elite university. He's helped thousands of patients with fasting (short and long).

The reasons people die on long fasts are well understood. If they don't drink clean water, if their body fat falls below ~5%, or if they don't re-feed properly they may get sick. These problems can be avoided with prior research.

ETA: Your links don't even work. This is a broken link:
http://theyogadr.com/yoga-of-fasting/
You didn't even check your sources. You're just posting sh*t and assuming it's true.
If you're going to be very confident about what you write, maybe check your sources first. What you did here is you linked to an argument without first checking if it's true -- that's irresponsible.

 

[dralex]

I linked to one article in one of the most prestigious American monthlies because I did not want to flood the thread. There are thousands of people doing this, it's fine. I'm not going to link to thousands of articles here. Have you heard of Harper's? It's not aimed at dumbasses.

What you did here is you went to google and copied and pasted the first article that agreed with your viewpoint. That's not a good way to think about things. Try and do some actual research. The article I linked actually itself discusses many case studies which you can research yourself.

Here's a book coming out next week written by a nephrologist (a kidney specialist) who was educated at the University of Toronto Medical School, and now practices there ... is he "a dumbass" too? Do you know more about medicine than he does?
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Gui...TF8&qid=1476285961&sr=8-1&keywords=jason+fung
No, he is educated and smart. He has been practicing specialized, advanced medicine for decades and is trained at an elite university. He's helped thousands of patients with fasting (short and long).

The reasons people die on long fasts are well understood. If they don't drink clean water, if their body fat falls below ~5%, or if they don't re-feed properly they may get sick. These problems can be avoided with prior research.

ETA: Your links don't even work. This is a broken link:
http://theyogadr.com/yoga-of-fasting/
You didn't even check your sources. You're just posting sh*t and assuming it's true.
If you're going to be very confident about what you write, maybe check your sources first. What you did here is you linked to an argument without first checking if it's true -- that's irresponsible.

Irresponsible? You are the one convincing people over the internet to starve themselves. You are a nutritionist's worst nightmare.

And just because it is a prestigious American monthly doesn't mean it is reliable information. It just means it is interesting information that people would want to read. Cite me a study that shows the benefit of a prolonged fast. And I don't mean 2-3 day fasts. Find a study that shows the benefits of fasting for 20 days. The book you just cited doesn't recommend going without food for 15-20 days lmfao. It is for alternate day intermittent fasting. That is completely different than what you are recommending. You are essentially recommending people to starve themselves.

 

[Afro_Vacancy]

Irresponsible? You are the one convincing people over the internet to starve themselves. You are a nutritionist's worst nightmare.

And just because it is a prestigious American monthly doesn't mean it is reliable information. It just means it is interesting information that people would want to read. Cite me a study that shows the benefit of a prolonged fast. And I don't mean 2-3 day fasts. Find a study that shows the benefits of fasting for 20 days. The book you just cited doesn't recommend going without food for 15-20 days lmfao. It is for alternate day intermittent fasting. That is completely different than what you are recommending. You are essentially recommending people to starve themselves.

False -- please read sources before discussing them. Don't assume what people are saying or writing without having listened nor read them. From the Amazon link:
"• the various ways to fast: intermittent, alternate-day, and extended fasting"
Dr. Jason Fung regularly discusses the issues in his videos and his blog, some of which I've read. His view is that for some people 1-day fasts are easier, "soft" fasts are easier (500 calories/day), or long fasts with just water are easier, and it varies from patient to patient. He's seen a lot of patients and the full spectrum.

In terms of studies, here's one of 68 patients who fasted for an average of 13.6 days (ranging from 4 to 40 days), in addition to a 6-day refeeding period:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12470446

 

[dralex]

False -- please read sources before discussing them. Don't assume what people are saying or writing without having listened nor read them. From the Amazon link:
"• the various ways to fast: intermittent, alternate-day, and extended fasting"
Dr. Jason Fung regularly discusses the issues in his videos and his blog, some of which I've read. His view is that for some people 1-day fasts are easier, "soft" fasts are easier (500 calories/day), or long fasts with just water are easier, and it varies from patient to patient. He's seen a lot of patients and the full spectrum.

In terms of studies, here's one of 68 patients who fasted for an average of 13.6 days (ranging from 4 to 40 days), in addition to a 6-day refeeding period:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12470446

Liking your post because of the study. Seems interesting nonetheless, but I assume the participants in the study were overweight individuals whose BP was reduced as result of getting their weight under control with fasting. Even if it helps their BP, it could still be harming their body in other ways. There are healthier means to lower one's BP by losing weight more gradually.
Even if several doctors claim that extended fasting is healthy, doesn't mean it is healthy. There will still be countless doctors that say the contrary.

 

[maxout777]

Thank you for your good posts.

I'd like to know more about your experiences. I don't have PFS but I have some of the symptoms, so I want to try it due to my desperation.

Which steroids did you use? Which herbal supplements did you use? How many times did you cycle through the protocol?

If you'd like to send me a PM I can discuss it more at length with you, I hate to hijack this topic with this talk. Feel free to reach out to me and I'll answer any questions you have. And I completely agree that this protocol may help you out, and I would suggest you give it a try.