New Dermaroller Study; Thoughts, comments?

[odalbak]

@ everyone — Nice links guys, thanks.

@ Hellhouser — I'm asking myself the same 4 questions.

@ Princessrambo — This hair growth of adult hair on the arm of a 6 year old boy is so weird. I imagine it's something that dates back to the time when as pre-humans we were born with adult fur to protect us from cold and rain, and not as hairless human babies. When a wound occurs the genome engages the old pre-human program of skin healing, hence the adult hair. Just my guess.

To get back to Hellhouser's questioning, I can imagine that at some point the healing process ends, the genes involved in healing don't process any hair neogenesis and follicles that were born this way continue their life only if the local context makes it possible. The adult hair on the 6 year old boy, being in a hormonal context not favourable to adult hair growth, disappeared (right?), but brand new follicles on a very gradually repaired scalp could live for years, why not? It could well be a gradual start over of our scalp, who knows? :woot:

 

[squeegee]

Observation from heavy derma-rolling.. you will shed a lot of dead skin few days after.. which is good news... I bought a brand new brush for pets grooming.. lol.. it works really good to get rid of the extra dead skin cells and gives you a sweet massage as well.

ex: http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/68/Dog_brush.JPG

 

[odalbak]

Squeegee, you're not a pussy. This brush looks scary.

 

[squeegee]

Squeegee, you're not a pussy. This brush looks scary.

Odal.. it doesn't scratch your skin at all. Helped me to shed all the dead skin which is a side effect from heavy dermarolling. Great stuff. The metal are soft enough but great for the job.

 

[Jacob]

WTF where is Jacob anyways? and wtf happened to Bryan and Cassin? Benjit get a derma roller with real mm on it. stop being a pussy lol.. Everybody. log on Amazon.com or ebay and get a ****ing roller.. go buy some rubbing alcohol and do your homework!

:wave:

I'm just using my .5 vibrating dermaroller until I get a pen for the price I can afford. Wishing now I would have just kept using it a couple of times a week..or even just once a week..all this time. That thing really gives my scalp a workout. I was looking at just getting longer needles for that one too....

And btw..mine isn't one of those cheap led-added vibrating dermarollers you see for around $30. That one site that sells the rollers has a page on how the vibrating ones are a bunch of crap..that the heads don't even vibrate. She obviously didn't bother testing one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Original-Microneedle-Vibrating-Function-Detachable/dp/B0048A33SE Mine was cheaper back then.

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Observation from heavy derma-rolling.. you will shed a lot of dead skin few days after.. which is good news... I bought a brand new brush for pets grooming.. lol.. it works really good to get rid of the extra dead skin cells and gives you a sweet massage as well.

ex: http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/68/Dog_brush.JPG

I'll stick with my Hair Sonic unless that ends up not taking care of the problem. I already do have a brush like that though...for the pooch. I think I'll get my own if I go that route though :whistle:

 

[hellouser]

Found another patent document on wounding:

The present invention relates to improved topical administration of one or more growth factors for non-surgical, cosmetic use. In particular, a combination of one or more growth factors with a microneedle roller. Specifically, the invention resides in a kit for cosmetic use comprising: one or more growth factors, growth factor mimetics, and/or growth factor receptor agonists formulated for topical application; and means to perform wounding of skin, such as a microneedle array, wherein the wounding is targeted to at least the epidermis and/or dermis of the skin to release endogenous thrombin into dermal and/or epidermal tissue.

Source:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120116295

 

[Armando Jose]

Many, just search google for localized acquired hypertrichosis

http://www.hypertrichosis.com/hypertrichosis-causes/hypertrichosis-injury-induced.shtml



Here is an example of such case
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2625898/?page=2

In my own experience I remember when we removed the cast from my brother like 20 years ago, it was funny to see a little 6 year old with one hairy arm.:woot:

In the last study say: " Tha hair growth resolved completely and spontaneously nine month after cast removal"
Possibly it is a transitory effect, and ever in body hair,......not in scalp hair

 

[Chelaxing]

does the dermaroller really increase the systematic absorption of topicals? i read somewhere that it increases minoxidil absorption by 2000 times or some crazy number like that.... does that only happen on the day you apply the roller or on subsequent days as well?...... I'm not too worried about minoxidil because it obviously did nothing to the people in the study, but i really don't want something like ketoconzole going systematic. that could have detrimental effects.

 

[hellouser]

More evidence of the wounding theory to induce hair growth, this comes courtesy of Conpecia from Bald Truth Talk, he was able to remember a case from law school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkins_v._McGee

Hawkins' hand was scarred from contact with an electrical wire. He was approached by McGee, a doctor, about having the scars removed. McGee guaranteed to make the injured hand a "one hundred percent good hand". McGee used a technique of "skin grafting" that he was unfamiliar with and failed to remove the scars. Because McGee used skin from Hawkins's chest area, the graft caused the palm of Hawkins' hand to grow thick hair.

The increasing evidence of wounding theory is starting to pile up....!!!

 

[Helios]

What type of dermaroller are you guys using?
I've been reading a lot of this on here and on the Bald Truth Talk, but there are a lot of different types that people are using.

Also i don't know if i want to start using Minoxidil. I have three bottles of Rogain, but i'm just worried that good hairs get effected when i start to use it. And i already have dark circles under my eyes. I'm using kerastase densifique for the moment, so maybe i can try with that. The guy who got burned on his head and had regrow also didn't use minoxidil, so....

 

[hellouser]

What type of dermaroller are you guys using?
I've been reading a lot of this on here and on the Bald Truth Talk, but there are a lot of different types that people are using.

Also i don't know if i want to start using Minoxidil. I have three bottles of Rogain, but i'm just worried that good hairs get effected when i start to use it. And i already have dark circles under my eyes. I'm using kerastase densifique for the moment, so maybe i can try with that. The guy who got burned on his head and had regrow also didn't use minoxidil, so....

Here's mine:

It's 192 needles at 1.5mm. Got it on Amazon.com for about $30 (cant remember).

 

[Chelaxing]

i read somewhere that stainless steel is better than titanium ( less toxic) so that might be something you wanna keep in mind when you decide which roller to buy.

 

[squeegee]

Here's mine:

It's 192 needles at 1.5mm. Got it on Amazon.com for about $30 (cant remember).

I am rocking the same torture tool!

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This is a nice picture from the latest Cotsarelis study:

http://scitechdaily.com/study-points-to-a-way-to-treat-wounds-and-grow-hair/

Boy, that wound size looks HUUUGEEE, and notice the depth, it goes all the way to the derma papillas. What kind of device can create this "full thickness excision" they are thinking of, a scalpel maybe? I mean, in the patent they say it shouldn't hurt (or patient can receive a numbing cream), Man i need a 2.5mm vibrating roller that can shoot additional daggers at my scalp... I think :shock:.

I will be out for blood tonight with my 1.5mm roller in the mean time, WHO IS WITH ME? "THIS IS WHERE WE HOLD THEM, THIS IS WHERE WE FIGHT, THIS IS WHERE THEY DIE... SPARTANSSSS, READY YOUR BREAKFAST AND DRINK HEARTY."

This is why I ordered a 2.5mm. And also, I go crazy with it. the 6 passes rules is useless for male pattern baldness. I bleed like a mofo with a 1.5, can't wait for the 2.5. I really need numb cream or a mouthguard.

 

[hellouser]

This is why I ordered a 2.5mm. And also, I go crazy with it. the 6 passes rules is useless for male pattern baldness. I bleed like a mofo with a 1.5, can't wait for the 2.5. I really need numb cream or a mouthguard.

Perhaps getting some over the counter Benzocaine would work? Its similar to lidocaine and acts as a topically applied anesthetic. My only concern would be as to what kind of reaction it may have with wounding, if it would inhibit hair growth (by any chance).

 

[odalbak]

I bleed like a mofo with a 1.5, can't wait for the 2.5.

LOL !!!


The more I think about the whole DR strategy the more I think that protecting the existing follicles that we have could well be irrelevant in our fight against male pattern baldness, if we make brand new ones all over our scalp. What's the point of keeping these small wrecks?


@Princessrambo — Thanks for this review. I guess you're probably right. Graph "a" shows there's hair placode growth occuring up until day 20. That suggests that after deep wounding we should wait at least 3 weeks? That's a long wait.


Hellouser posted this link on BTT…
Wounding enhances epidermal TUMORIGENESIS by recruiting hair follicle keratinocytes

 

[squeegee]

According to my experience. I have 2 weeks in rolling.. The first week I did it.. I didn't go as crazy as last Friday and yeah my pumpkin is still recovering from the last torture day. Which way is more effective? I dunno.. All I can say is, if I go crazy, I shed dead skin after few days.. which is good. Still debating if I should go average/weekly or hardcore/bi-weekly?

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Perhaps getting some over the counter Benzocaine would work? Its similar to lidocaine and acts as a topically applied anesthetic. My only concern would be as to what kind of reaction it may have with wounding, if it would inhibit hair growth (by any chance).

http://www.amazon.com/Numb-Maximum-Strength-Deep-Cream/dp/B009TLPABU

 

[odalbak]

I'll get my 1.5mm dermaroller on monday.

I may apply the 1 deep wounding every 3 week strategy instead of replicating the Indian study.

This being said, in the Indian study, they did mention that "There was earlier and faster hair re-growth at 1 week in the microneedling treated group." I mean it's very tempting to go this way.

 

[squeegee]

That guy is on the money [video=youtube;yFNe2_9YJXs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNe2_9YJXs[/video] Only way to do this.. the problem is that hair follicle are deep in the skin!

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ENHANCING SKIN WOUND HEALING BY DIRECT INTRACELLULAR ATP DELIVERY


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1850226/

 

[uncomfortable man]

Hope this pain can lead to some gain.

 

[hellouser]

Here's a close up shot of my right temple from my third dermarolling session. My first one was

Here's a shot of my first dermarolling session two weeks ago:

^ I don't think thats anywhere near enough wounding, there are far less drops of blood. I know wound healing may not be the same across the entire body, but I've had my wisdom teeth pulled and had gum grafting done on me where a strip of gum graft tissue was taken out from pallet and stitched in between gum tissue and my two front lower teeth. Both times my surgeon said my anatomy is crazy, I heal *really* fast and really well. Having said that, the length of time I see it takes me to heal with the dermarolling wounding is REALLY quick too, its 2 days AT MOST but typically one day. Its similar with my cat, whenever I play with her she always gives me a love bites/scratches on my hand to the point of bleeding. These scratches are GONE the next day. I can see why some people said dermarolling with lithium DIDNT WORK in the past because I'm almost certain they weren't doing it vigorously.

Much like what princessRambo pointed out, that the wounding area looks BIG, I think we need to be equally rough on our skin, similarly to the woman who used the dermaroller on the guys face and had relatively lots of bleeding all across.

Its great that we've got many people on board with this community trial to see what works and at what specific times its best to repeat sessions, apply minoxidil, how much, etc. Its a good thing that the results look to be fairly quick as Histogen saw fast response times.

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I think Hellouser's link goes further goes to show that it is wise to wait a bit longer, but I am specifically referring to deep wounding as in the Cotsarelis study. Hellouser's link refers to chronic wounds as a precursor to skin cancer, and this is easy to conclude because the first thing that happens after wounding is inflammation, that's when it hurts like hell, swollen etc... if we keep the skin in this constant state of inflammation it is not surprise tumor can result. Some people dermaroll every day without any issue with smaller needles and just a few rolls here and there to cover the skin and get it red-ish (there is a youtube video of a 70 year old doctor that claims to dermaroll every morning and his face looks as smooth as baby butt), this I think is even what the dermaroller indian guys did in their study ("mild erythma"), they more likely simulated blood flow and enhanced minoxidil absorption than getting true WIHN all over the scalp. Cotsarelis study specifically targets that post wound window where all the magic happens, and you are exactly right about waiting "up until 20 days" in case of deep wounds, like squeegee is sadistically inflicting himself (and all the other torture items he is acquiring :uglylol (and myself in a couple of hours :woot. Indeed it is a long wait, but I don't think more is necessarily better in this case. There is a new study that I became aware of couple of days ago and for the life of me I can't get the full text, they have essentially dermarolled 10 times in 6 months, this was before the Cotsarelis study results were released this past june, so I doubt they were after WIHN, more like allowing better absorption for the growth factor they were testing.

Those growth factors are already available here: http://anageninc.com/nano-solutions/gf-nano-solution-30g.html

My only concern is of course SAFETY. The ingredients more or less mirror those from the studies I posted as well as some of the ones from Histogen. I know at least one guy will be trialing this along with wounding on another forum. THIS could give even more substantial/quicker results. I'm fine without those growth factors if wounding works on its own though, I don't want to pump any more foreign compounds into my body (RU being one and will soon start CB-03-01).